Baha'i V

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tony,

how about this quotation, “The final years of Bahá’u’lláh’s life (1879–1892) were spent in the Mansion of Bahjí, just outside `Akká, even though he was still formally a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire.”

horrible, just horrible, forced to live in a mansion for the final thirteen years of his life which ended in a natural death.

perhaps tony does not know as much about bhaism and bahaullah as he thinks he knows?

i acknowledge, based on my research, that bahaullah was subjected to harsh imprisonment for about three years, from 1868-1870. so, for three out of his 72 years he was treated poorly.

as to the rest, yes, he and his teachings were opposed by authorities at times and did result in his forced exile. however, during all of this time he was able to be with at least one of his three wives and his many children.

to compare bahaullah’s life and suffering to that of Jesus’ suffering, crucifixion and death borders on pure sophistry.
 
Steve, Baha’u’llah could have easily chosen to live the life of luxury and wealth that He was born into, yet, He willingly endured 40 years of exile and imprisonment at the direction of God’s Will. Recognize that what Baha’u’llah endured was unendurable.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, pg 139)
We have Saints who also were born into great wealth but chose to not live the life of Luxury. But they are not God.
 
Eddie I have left this Forum and was only going to monitor the discussions. Why I was going to monitor was for this particular reason.

You do not have to agree with the Baha’i point of view, but to slander with outright lies what Baha’u’llah suffered is something a Christian should consider, “Is this a Christian Act”

IMHO - It is replies like these that should be moderated by this Forum.

I do not need to post the truth re this matters, it is easy to find if one wishes to be just. In fact it has already been shown the Bab suffered almost identically as to how Christ Suffered and for the same reasons.

I hope that yours and this comment will be deleted from this post. If they are not, I hope people that read your comments have justice in their hearts to actually search the truth out in this matter.

God Bless - Regards Tony
Did you know that Christ was beat so bad that his beard was torn from his face. Jesus did not even look like a human being he was beaten so bad.

Could you share with us this same experience of torment that Baha’i shared that was just as great or greater then the hell Jesus experienced.

I must also say I am sorry because I have missed some of the thread at times. Can someone refer me to the page where it shows the suffering of Baha’i that compares to Jesus. Thanks.
 
Did you know that Christ was beat so bad that his beard was torn from his face. Jesus did not even look like a human being he was beaten so bad.

Could you share with us this same experience of torment that Baha’i shared that was just as great or greater then the hell Jesus experienced.

I must also say I am sorry because I have missed some of the thread at times. Can someone refer me to the page where it shows the suffering of Baha’i that compares to Jesus. Thanks.
Actually all the Manifestations of God suffered greatly at the hands of those who were ignorant or oppress the truth …

Inflicted the bastinado…for His companions:

Bahá’u’lláh intervened to prevent His companions receiving the bastinado, and requested that the punishment be inflicted upon Him in their stead. The Deputy-Governor 'was reluctantly compelled to give orders that Bahá’u’lláh alone be chosen to suffer the indignity which he had intended originally for His companions.'2 The Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith has stated, in a letter to the believers in the East, dated January 1929, that Bahá’u’lláh suffered the bastinado in Mazindaran.
Code:
(H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 59)
Stoning:

From Shimiran to Tihran, Bahá’u’lláh was several times stripped of His garments, and was overwhelmed with abuse and ridicule. On foot and exposed to the fierce rays of the midsummer sun, He was compelled to cover, barefooted and bareheaded, the whole distance from Shimiran to the dungeon already referred to. **All along the route, He was pelted and vilified by the crowds whom His enemies had succeeded in convincing that He was the sworn enemy of their sovereign and the wrecker of his realm. **

Words fail me to portray the horror of the treatment which was meted out to Him as He was being taken to the Siyah-Chal [1] of Tihran. As He was approaching the dungeon, and old and decrepit woman was seen to emerge from the midst of the crowd, with a stone in her hand, eager to cast it at the face of Bahá’u’lláh. Her eyes glowed with a determination and fanaticism of which few women of her age were capable. Her whole frame shook with rage as she stepped forward and raised her hand to hurl her missile at Him. “By the Siyyidu’sh-Shuhada,[2 I adjure you,” she pleaded, as she ran to overtake those into whose hands Bahá’u’lláh had been delivered, “give me a chance to fling my stone in his face!” “Suffer not this woman to be disappointed,” were Bahá’u’lláh’s words to His guards, as He saw her hastening behind Him. “Deny her not what she regards as a meritorious act in the sight of God.”
[1 Name of the dungeon, meaning “Black Pit.”]
[2 The Imam Husayn.]
Code:
(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 605)
See succeeding post:
 
rinnie, your church has adopted a kinder stance toward the Baha’is:

Roman Catholic Church re the Baha’i Faith
Getting to Know People of Other Faiths No. 8

W H A T I S T H E B A H A ’ I F A I T H ?
In the Vatican II ‘Declaration on the relationship of the Church with Non-Christians’ we find that the Church speaks with warmth and openness and greets People of Faith as partners in a single great enterprise. These religions contain much that is good and holy and provide ways of salvation for millions of people all over the world. Throughout the documents of Vatican II we find encouragement to respect, accept and meet as friends, those who profess faiths different from our own. The Baha’i Faith will be introduced here in this spirit.

Who are the Baha’is?

The Baha’i founders sprang from Islamic roots, but are seen by the Baha’is as founding a religion that fulfils all previous religions. Today Baha’is are people who formerly had different religious backgrounds. They have been Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoroastrians or else they had no religion at all. They give equal homage to all the past prophets, but believe that religion progressively evolves, and that Baha’u’llah is God’s spokesman for this age. Although Baha’is are from different religious, racial, national, economic and social classes, the Baha’i teachings has given them a higher loyalty–the loyalty to humanity.

To a Baha’i there is no demarcation between religion and everyday life. The most important prayer, Baha’is say, is a person’s daily life. Religion, in other words, is an attitude towards God reflected in life.

Today there are between 5 and 6 milion Baha’is in the world, extending over more than three hundred and forty countries, territories and island groups. In England there are 6,000 registered Baha’is (1989) with 180 local Assemblies, resident in over 400 localities

The Forerunner of the Baha’i Faith was a young Persian merchant known as the Bab (the Gate), who in 1844 proclaimed Himself to be a Messenger of God and a herald of One greater than Himself–One who would inaugurate a new era in religion and civilization. Like earlier Messengers of God, the Bab was opposed and denounced. After six years of persecution He was publicly martyred at the age of 30 in Tabriz.

Its founder was Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God), a Persian nobleman who in 1863 declared Himself to be the One whose coming the Bab and all the previous Prophets had foretold. Like His predecessor, He was bitterly opposed and persecuted. During nearly forty years of exile and imprisonment He committed to writing the teachings of His revelation, some of them in letters to the most important kings and leaders of religion, as well and teaching and training His followers. His fourth and last place of banishment, reached in 1865, was the prison city of 'Akka (Acre), Palestine, where He passed away in 1892 at the age of seventy-four.

Its authorized interpreter and exemplar was 'Abdu’l-Baha (the servant of the Glory), eldest son of Baha’u’llah, who was appointed by his father as the Centre of His Covenant and the one to whom all must turn for instruction and guidance. 'Abdu’l-Baha was the close companion and constant helper of his father, whose sufferings he shared. He remained a prisoner until 1908, when the old regime in Turkey was overthrown and all religious and political prisoners were liberated. Afterwards he travelled widely in Egypt, Europe and America, explaining the principles of the Faith and inspiring and directing the activities of its followers throughout the world. He passed away in Haifa in 1921, mourned by people of all faiths. His life was and continues to be a shining example to all. In his will and testament, Abdu’l-Baha appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to be the Guardian of the Faith, and the interpreter of its scripture. Under his guiding hand, the faith spread rapidly. He passed away in London in 1957. Since 1963, the Faith has been under the guidance of the Universal House of Justice.

The Baha’i Faith

Proclaims: The Oneness of God, the Oneness of Religion and of Mankind, and the equality of men and women. It encourages the elimination of prejudice of all kinds, universal education, elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, the protection of cultural diversity. It also advocates individual search after truth, the harmony of science and religion, use of an auxiliary universal language and world government.

The Baha’i House of Worship

A Baha’i house of worship is open to people of all nations, races, classes and creeds. It is a place of prayer and meditation for all, a gift from the Baha’is and a demonstration of their faith in the oneness of God, the oneness of His Prophets and the oneness of mankind.

Baha’i Administration

Consultation is the keynote of all Baha’i administration.

There is no clergy and no ritual.

The Scripture is in written form, preserved and authentic.

Administrative bodies are called Spiritual Assemblies; they are local, national, and international. All Assemblies meet in a spirit of prayer.

These spiritual Assemblies are elected by the people, but their responsibility is trust from God to whom alone they are answerable.

There is no seeking for votes, no candidates, no platform promises, no parties.

The Nineteen Day Feast is a community occasion, for the reading of prayers, discussions of affairs with the Local Spiritual Assembly, and material refreshment together.

The Universal House of Justice–an elected International body constituted by Baha’u’llah as the supreme legislative and governing body of the Faith–carries out its duties at the Baha’i World Centre in Haifa Israel.

Only members of the Baha’i Faith may contribute to the Baha’i Fund.
 
Four months in the Siyyah Chal dungeon:

Here He was imprisoned in an underground dungeon, where the light of day was never seen. A heavy chain was placed about his neck by which He was chained to five other Bábís; these fetters were locked together by strong, very heavy bolts, and screws. His clothes were torn to pieces, also His fez. In this terrible condition He was kept for four months.

During this time none of His friends were able to get access to Him.

A prison official made an attempt to poison Him but, beyond causing Him great suffering, this poison had no effect.
Code:
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 75)
The Siyah-Chal, into which Bahá’u’lláh was thrown, originally a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of Tihran, was a subterranean dungeon in which criminals of the worst type were wont to be confined. The darkness, the filth, and the character of the prisoners, combined to make of that pestilential dungeon the most abominable place to which human beings could be condemned. His feet were placed in stocks, and around His neck were fastened the Qara-Guhar chains, infamous throughout Persia for their galling weight.[1]

For three days and three nights, no manner of food or drink was given to Bahá’u’lláh. Rest and sleep were both impossible to Him. The place was infested with vermin, and the stench of that gloomy abode was enough to crush the very spirits of those who were condemned to suffer its horrors. Such were the conditions under which He was held down that even one of the executioners who were watching over Him was moved with pity. Several times this man attempted to induce Him to take some tea which he had managed to introduce into the dungeon under the cover of his garments. Bahá’u’lláh, however, would refuse to drink it. His family often endeavoured to persuade the guards to allow them to carry the food they had prepared for Him into His prison. Though at first no amount of pleading would induce the guards to relax the severity of their discipline, yet gradually they yielded to His friends’ importunity. No one could be sure, however, whether that food would eventually reach Him, or whether He would consent to eat it whilst a number of His fellow-prisoners were starving before His eyes. Surely greater misery than had befallen these innocent victims of the wrath of their sovereign, could hardly be imagined.[2]
Code:
(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 606)
Poisoning:

Desperate designs to poison Bahá’u’lláh and His companions, and thereby reanimate his own defunct leadership, began, approximately a year after their arrival in Adrianople, to agitate his mind. Well aware of the erudition of his half-brother, Aqay-i-Kalim, in matters pertaining to medicine, he, under various pretexts, sought enlightenment from him regarding the effects of certain herbs and poisons, and then began, contrary to his wont, to invite Bahá’u’lláh to his home, where, one day, having smeared His tea-cup with a substance he had concocted, he succeeded in poisoning Him sufficiently to produce a serious illness which lasted no less than a month, and which was accompanied by severe pains and high fever, the aftermath of which left Bahá’u’lláh with a shaking hand till the end of His life. 1
Code:
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 165)
**Loss of son Mirza Mihdi in the Prison of Akka:
**
AND now occurred the great tragedy of the death of the Purest Branch - Mirza Mihdi, a son of Bahá’u’lláh. Mirza Mihdi, designated Ghusnu’llahu’l-Athar (The Purest Branch) by his Father, was the second surviving son of Bahá’u’lláh. He was the full brother of 'Abdu’l-Bahá (Ghusnu’llahu’l-A’zam: The Most Great Branch) having the same mother, Navvabih Khanum. In 1870, he was twenty-two years old. It was his wont to go in the evening to the roof-top of the citadel to pray and meditate. There one gets a wonderful view of the pellucid blue of the Mediterranean, with the silhouette of Mount Carmel beyond the seascape; and to the other side lies stretched the plain of 'Akká with the majestic peak of Mount Hermon in the background. One evening, Mirza Mihdi, pacing up and down that roof-top engrossed with his thoughts and meditations, did not notice an open skylight and plunged through it to the floor below, falling upon a crate which pierced his chest. The injury proved fatal.
Code:
(H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 310)
These are just some of the sufferings that were endured by Baha’u’llah…
 
the bahai concept of eternal progression certainly sounds like HELL to me.

for me, eternal rest in perfect peace and love sounds like HEAVEN.

it is incomprehensible to me why anyone would like to spend eternity seeking what they can never find, bizarre do not you think?
Well Paul must’ve been in hell all his life then, what having “progressed” from Christian slayer to chief propagation agent for the Christian Faith. Imagine the hell in that?

When he died, he may well have even “progressed” to the presence of His Lord. I would hate to be him 😉

😃

Eddie progress means always serving our Lord. You seem to want to sit in front of the tv with remote control in hand with God stroking your hair for eternity. Maybe when you realise it, it’s not really what is the definition of nobility, which is how God wants you to be my friend 🙂

I am not seeking God, I am with God. It is with Him that I purify my soul, remove my weaknesses and serve Him with ever improving efficacy…
 
Not really. I knew some Bahia when I lived in Honduras. We had long discussions and I did some reading.

Frankly, you sound no different than Mormons…just from a different part of the world.

And frantic shorthand is usually full of errors.
I think you missed the point that the final draft was RATIFIED by the Lord of mankind 😉

Plus, also, we are as much Mormon as you are Shiah Muslim 🙂
 
My understanding of the Baha’i position is that unless something can be verified scientifically then it is not to be believed. You deny Christ’s glorified body because you say one cannot have a physical body and at the same time walk through walls. You hold this position because it doesn’t mesh with scientific truth. I am open to correction if this is not your position.
Steve,
. As God is the Author of Reality, and His Prophets are the Manifestations of God, and the “world” was created through the Word of God, the purpose of religion is to guide humanity towards God and His Reality through the teachings and examples of Those Whom He has sent to teach and guide us.

. When we are presented with fantastic stories which do not accord with normal reality, then are questioned as to whether to accept all such stories as true when we have no more to go on than that such stories have been handed down in traditions, the rational and thinking soul will ponder upon the likelihood of such stories as either being the truth, or like so many stories, the product of men’s imagination.

. Can I say whether or not Jesus walked through walls, appeared and disappeared, caused loaves and fishes to appear out of thin air? No… I cannot say whether this or that happened or not, for I was not present. But knowing something about people and the extent to which they tell stories, prefer “miracles” over reasonable explanations, and witness that myths are part of every human culture, I am drawn to conclude that it is quite possible that a few myths have crept into the telling of the New Testament as well.

. Jesus Himself first instructed His disciples to “share” the loaves and fishes they had with the crowd, setting an example for the masses of Jews and Gentiles to likewise share, and after all had eaten, there was food leftover.

. People’s appetite for miraculous events over the moral lesson, however, demonstrates itself yet today in the preference of people to believe in the physical miracle over the moral example in Jesus’ teaching, for it requires nothing of them intellectually or morally, other than to nod their heads in agreement to satisfy herd pressure, by which means their security is established.

. “If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.” . Abdul Baha
 
for me, eternal rest in perfect peace and love sounds like HEAVEN.

eddie, here’s some real beauty right here on Earth. It’s the Shrine of the Bab, on the slopes of Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel. A total of nineteen terraces stretch above and below the Shrine (which contains the Bab’s mortal remains) and is now known world-wide. I’ve been fortunate enough to visit in person. Enjoy! (6 min YouTube vid)

youtube.com/watch?v=vxesOz6rRlw
 
tony,

how about this quotation, “The final years of Bahá’u’lláh’s life (1879–1892) were spent in the Mansion of Bahjí, just outside `Akká, even though he was still formally a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire.”

horrible, just horrible, forced to live in a mansion for the final thirteen years of his life which ended in a natural death.

perhaps tony does not know as much about bhaism and bahaullah as he thinks he knows?

i acknowledge, based on my research, that bahaullah was subjected to harsh imprisonment for about three years, from 1868-1870. so, for three out of his 72 years he was treated poorly.

as to the rest, yes, he and his teachings were opposed by authorities at times and did result in his forced exile. however, during all of this time he was able to be with at least one of his three wives and his many children.

to compare bahaullah’s life and suffering to that of Jesus’ suffering, crucifixion and death borders on pure sophistry.
The Bab was the Gate to Baha’u’llah, they both suffered greatly to bring us back to the Love of God.

If one wishes to say the Greatness of Christ was His suffering, then one Has to acknowledge that this has always been the Lot of the Chosen Ones of God. It is recorded in History for all to see.

If one wishes to add to those sufferings and in Fact add to Christs Sufferings, then postings like these will help.

Link to the True Stories - bahai-library.com/compilation_suffering_bahaullah

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-25.html

Also the Bab - bahai-library.com/davidmerrick_holydays_martyrdomofbab

Extract

Anyone reading the martyrdom’s of both Jesus and the Báb, will notice some very intriguing similarities…
  1. The age of the Báb and length of His mission are similar to those of Jesus.
  2. Both had farcical trials with predictable conclusions.
  3. The Báb is put to death on the eve of Ramadan, exactly as Jesus is martyred on the eve of Sabbath and the Passover, for the same reasons.
  4. The Báb being paraded through town on an donkey recalls Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem.
  5. The Báb met His martyrdom at noon, which is the time Jesus was taken away to His death in John.
  6. Both are suspended in the air, have one fellow-companion going to Paradise, and the same words are uttered for their going there.
  7. The Báb instructs His disciples to deny their faith, much as Jesus’ disciples fled and denied Him in order for His faith to continue.
  8. Both the Báb and Jesus demonstrate a power over martyrdom that shows it was a voluntary death.
  9. Both are struck by a sword / spear.
  10. The disappearance of the Báb before the people, is similar to Jesus’ disappearance from the tomb.
  11. A long darkness (and other natural wonders) follows the deaths of both the Báb and Jesus.
  12. Guards are posted over both the Báb’s and Jesus’ bodies so that their bodies are not taken, but both fail in their jobs.
  13. The bodies of both the Báb and Jesus are both found disappeared on the third day.
  14. In both cases a report is spread abroad to cover the disappearance.
I will let all with open and just minds consider this matter.

Regards Tony
 
Thankyou Robyn 🙂

I appreciate your thoughts. I actually only deny the physical resurrection and accept the virgin birth PURELY based off the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. We do not deny the fact that miracles are perfectly within the bounds of reason in how God operates, but we also recognize Baha’u’llah, totally and utterly immersed in His ocean, and like His drops, we motion with His waves to and fro in whichever direction He wishes to take us, and we have found that it is good, very good! 👍

I recognize Baha’u’llah to be my Lord and the Supreme Manifestation of God, by no other means than how Peter recognized Jesus to be the Son of the Living God. This is a point worthy of serious attention I would suggest. The Resurrection meant nothing to Peter during his time spent with Jesus (it hadn’t happened yet), serving Him, following Him, absorbing His Words, so why should it mean so much to you?

Answer this question and a veil will hopefully be lifted to enable you to become guided by the Father (as Peter was) towards the Truth.

I pray for you as I am hopeful that you will remember me in your prayers, dear one
God bless!
Why does the Resurrection mean so much to me? Well, several reasons.

Ultimately, because if Christ has not been raised, my faith is futile, and I am still in my sins. The Resurrection is clearly taught in Scripture to be a VITAL part of Christ’s ministry.
(1 Cor 15:17, Rom 4:25) The Resurrection also changes everything.
  1. It validates all of Christ’s claims to divinity. Any guy can CLAIM to be God, but that doesn’t demonstrate anything. But raising yourself from the dead, that’s a strong indication He really is what He said.
  2. It gives us hope. Death does not have the last word. All of creation will be renewed.
    (Rev 21:5)
  3. You know what? I’ll be honest, I have a lot of suffering. My body is broken. I can’t walk. And I believe in the Resurrection because it gives my life hope. Someday, I’ll be able to know what it feels like to walk on my feet.
  4. I believe it matters so much because Christ promised it, taught it, went through a lot of trouble to prove it to the disciples. Who later all died for professing it.
That’s why.

P.S.
Arguing that the Resurrection meant nothing to Peter (because it hadn’t happened yet,) therefore it shouldn’t matter to us either is faulty reasoning. The Crucifixion hadn’t happened yet either, are you saying that doesnt matter? Half of Jesus’ teachings that we live by hadn’t been taught yet either when Peter made that confession, are you saying those don’t matter?

Peter would spend the rest of his life proclaiming the Resurrection. It obviously mattered a lot to him.
 
tony,
so you think bab and bahaullah are the same human being?
The same essence, different accidents. To be more precise, each has a two-fold nature, the divine and the human. Their divine natures are the same. Their human natures, like all human natures, consist of the human essence and individually specific attributes. However the individuality of the person is not unimportant - it is of equal importance with the essence, because both individuality and essence are created by God:
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost **essence **of all things, and the **individuality **of each, thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord’s mercy in every created thing, … And not an atom of all the atoms in existence, not a creature from amongst the creatures but speaketh His praise and telleth of His attributes and names,
(Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 41)
The individualities of the Manifestations are associated with the particular roles they play in God’s unfolding plan:
…in this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a **distinct individuality, **a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 52)
 
Why does the Resurrection mean so much to me? Well, several reasons.

Ultimately, because if Christ has not been raised, my faith is futile, and I am still in my sins. The Resurrection is clearly taught in Scripture to be a VITAL part of Christ’s ministry.
(1 Cor 15:17, Rom 4:25) The Resurrection also changes everything.
  1. It validates all of Christ’s claims to divinity. Any guy can CLAIM to be God, but that doesn’t demonstrate anything. But raising yourself from the dead, that’s a strong indication He really is what He said.
  2. It gives us hope. Death does not have the last word. All of creation will be renewed.
    (Rev 21:5)
  3. You know what? I’ll be honest, I have a lot of suffering. My body is broken. I can’t walk. And I believe in the Resurrection because it gives my life hope. Someday, I’ll be able to know what it feels like to walk on my feet.
  4. I believe it matters so much because Christ promised it, taught it, went through a lot of trouble to prove it to the disciples. Who later all died for professing it.
That’s why.

P.S.
Arguing that the Resurrection meant nothing to Peter (because it hadn’t happened yet,) therefore it shouldn’t matter to us either is faulty reasoning. The Crucifixion hadn’t happened yet either, are you saying that doesnt matter? Half of Jesus’ teachings that we live by hadn’t been taught yet either when Peter made that confession, are you saying those don’t matter?

Peter would spend the rest of his life proclaiming the Resurrection. It obviously mattered a lot to him.
God bless you Robyn. We could spend eternity going back and forth, but the most important thing is that I truly honor your faith and your faith is strong and beautiful :angel1:
 
May I ask that this question also be addressed by the Catholics please? 🙂
Sorry Servant, got missed in all the traffic.

You ask how Catholics can reconcile the fact that 1. The time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. And 2. That the gospel has been preached to all nations, yet Jesus hasn’t returned.

Well, here’s a few thoughts.
  1. You say the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled…how so? I’m not sure how anyone can rightly make that claim. How can we tell? Do we have the list of how many Gentiles must convert until their time is fulfilled? Do we know the mind of God? This seems like a strange claim to make.
  2. Maybe the Gospel has been preached to many nations, but there are still nations out there that have never heard the gospel before as well, indigenous tribes in Africa or South America, that have never had contact with the outside world for example? Not to mention my own state which is definitely in need of the Gospel. 🙂
  3. Even if 1 and 2 were accurate, you’re forgetting that the anti-Christ is prophesied to come before Christ returns. That hasn’t happened yet either. So at least one criterion is missing there. Not to mention the Great Tribulation that Christ told us must take place before He comes.
  4. Most importantly, God’s time is not our time. As Peter says, which I think you would agree
With The Lord, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises as some count slow, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance.” (2 Pet 3:8-9)

Even if all the things that are said to take place before the Second Coming were completed, we still don’t know how much longer the Coming will be. It could be another thousand years after for all we know. That’s why the warning for watchfulness is given.

Sorry again for taking so long to reply to this. Been pretty busy, you know how it goes. 🙂
 
God bless you Robyn. We could spend eternity going back and forth, but the most important thing is that I truly honor your faith and your faith is strong and beautiful :angel1:
Thank you so much Servant! I’ve enjoyed our discussions, even if we still disagree, (and we might get a little frustrated ;)) I’m glad we were able to share our different perspectives. 👍
 
Hi rinnie, I will attempt to walk this walk with you below 🙂
What you are saying makes no sense, A bad Priest brings down God and his Church?? So then are you saying people should have ignored Jesus because of Judas?
I’m not really saying that rinnie. What I am saying is that if Jesus was to appoint Judas as His “official” successor and that God was animating Judas’s every move, then it would demean the station of Jesus if Judas were to commit heinous crimes. Would it not?
Where I am confused is sometimes you use the bible, then ignore it.
I understand your frustration here rinnie. I assure you, if it enabled a convincing stance to be made regarding the teachings of Baha’u’llah, we would ONLY use His Words, but Catholics do not see His Words as the Word of God, so when dialoguing with Christians we try to use the Bible wherever possible.

In this instance we are referring to the abolishing of the clerical order. Obviously we cannot use the Bible to make a valid case here. The validity of our case is reflected from an observation of the reality presented before us, and the problems that the clergy have brought to mankind, and the remedy, which is found in Baha’u’llah’s teachings.
So tell me in your opinion what makes Baha’i above the Priests. I mean Okay, what you are saying one bad priest fails downs goes the Church.

Then are you saying not one Baha’i has failed? SHow me a Baha’i without sin. If you cannot why do you not hold your faith in the same eyes as your hold the Church.
This is the whole point rinnie. We are all human beings and have failings, priests included. Baha’is are not above the priests, we are on the same footing. Baha’u’llah has abolished the clerical establishment for this very reason. If a man of God is meant to be taken seriously, then he cannot commit heinous crimes.

Don’t get me wrong, there was a place for clerics during the Jewish, Christian and Islamic dispensations and they were needed for amongst other things to convey the Word of God to the illiterate populations. How else could the religions of God be effectively propogated?

However, one thing that you will see as being common with all clerical orders is the downfall of their “godly” attributes upon the moment that another Manifestation of God revealed Himself. Look at the pharisees etc, the “brood of vipers”, Jesus came and removed their power. It is the same with Baha’u’llah and the entire clerical system. Individuals can easily be a “brood of vipers” …

Baha’u’llah has brought in a new heaven and a new earth, where EVERYONE Can now easily read, or at least learn to read, the Word of God, and this establishment is no longer wanted, just in case an individual falls into the “viper” category and leads their congregation astray
Because you are saying if the Priest sins it is God who is accountable, Because you blame the RCC.

So you are putting the sins of man at the foot of Christ himself. How can you do this, but yet when a Baha’i sins he is not held responsible? Why this double standard?
But rinnie, it is not me that is laying the sins of the priests at the foot of Christ itself. You have quoted yourself that these individuals have had the Holy Spirit breathed upon them. This is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity! One and the same with the Son and the Father no less. Unless I am mistaken, having the Holy Spirit endowing my person is a very critical station, is it not?
And more yet, why are the sins of Baha’i allowed, and yet his truth valid?
I think you may be talking about Baha’u’llah here. I assume you are asking why are the sins of Baha’u’llah allowed, and we validate His truth?
Can you please confirm if this is the case and if so, any specific sin? I personally don’t know of any sin that Baha’u’llah committed.

Hope this helps dear one 🙂
 
engaging in polygamy is sin.
From the Universal House of Justice:

…as regards Bahá’u’lláh’s marriage it should be noted that His three marriages were all contracted before He revealed His Book of Laws, and even before His declaration in Baghdád, at a time when Bahá’í marriage laws had not yet been known, and the Revelation not yet disclosed.
(25 May 1938 to a National Spiritual Assembly)
Bahá’u’lláh had no concubine, He had three legal wives. As He married them before the “Aqdas” (His book of laws) was revealed, He was only acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded. He made plurality of wives conditional upon justice; 'Abdu’l-Bahá interpreted this to mean that a man may not have more than one wife at a time, as it is impossible to be just to two or more women in marriage.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
…Bahá’u’lláh married the first and second wives while He was still in Tihrán, and the third wife while He was in Baghdád. At that time, the Laws of the “Aqdas” had not been revealed, and secondly, He was following the Laws of the previous Dispensation and the customs of the people of His own land.
(14 January 1953 to an individual believer)

The three wives of Bahá’u’lláh were:
Nawáb (Asíyih Khánum): married some time between 24 September and 22 October 1835; died 1886; seven children.

Mahd-i-'Ulyá (Fátimih Khánum): born 1828; married 1849; died 1904; six children. She broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá’u’lláh as did all her children. See God Passes By (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1987), chapter 15.

Gawhar Khánum: married in Baghdád; died during the Ministry of 'Abdu’l-Bahá; one child. She and her daughter both broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá’u’lláh. See God Passes By, chapter 15.

On the subject of monogamy, it is stated in note 89 of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:

Polygamy is a very ancient practice among the majority of humanity. The introduction of monogamy has been only gradually accomplished by the Manifestations of God. Jesus, for example, did not prohibit polygamy, but abolished divorce except in the case of fornication; Muhammad limited the number of wives to four, but making plurality of wives contingent on justice, and reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá’u’lláh, Who was revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society, introduced the question of monogamy gradually in accordance with the principles of wisdom and the progressive unfoldment of His purpose. The fact that He left His followers with an infallible Interpreter of His Writings enabled Him to outwardly permit two wives in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas but uphold a condition that enabled 'Abdu’l-Bahá to elucidate later that the intention of the law was to enforce monogamy.
On page 39 of A Synopsis and Codification of the Kitáb-i -Aqdas it is stated that “Plurality of wives is forbidden.” The note explaining this appears on page 59 and states:
The text of the Aqdas upholds monogamy, but as it appears also to permit bigamy, the Guardian was asked for a clarification, and in reply his secretary wrote on his behalf: "Regarding Bahá’í marriage; in the light of the Master’s Tablet interpreting the provision in the Aqdas on the subject of the plurality of wives, it becomes evident that monogamy alone is permissible, since, as 'Abdu’l-Bahá states, bigamy is conditioned upon justice, and as justice is impossible, it follows that bigamy is not permissible, and monogamy alone should be practised
 
Jesus was absolutely clear that marriage was designed by God for the relationship of one man to one woman.

it is a very ignorant thing to say that Jesus did not teach that polygamy was a sin.

Jesus taught that divorce was a sin.

bahai need to stop lying about what Jesus Christ taught mankind.
 
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