Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

Love God and your fellow man is an eternal keeper. Do not steal, lie, murder, etc, are in the same category.

However, the laws relating to marriage, divorce, etc, etc, change (or can be changed) from Revelation to Revelation. Since Baha’u’llah’s marriages were lawful to Him under the existing laws of Islam, and were entered into prior to His own Revelation, He broke no laws.

Who decides this, Nick? Who decides that it is always wrong to steal and lie and murder but that it is acceptable to divorce and commit adultery depending upon the Manifestation’s desire for another woman and the local laws of his time.

And as far as something being lawful because of man’s laws does not mean it is not sinful and an offense against God. In this country it is lawful for me to procure an abortion for a woman. Yet it is such an offense against God that it is a mortal sin and results in immediate excommunication.

 

[Nick44]

Great. But my question was not “please explain the Baha’i belief in miracles”. My question is why do you hold Christianity to a different standard than the Baha’i faith when it comes to things that are above and beyond science?

And please, would you mind dispensing with the long quotes from Baha’u’llah? That’s fine if one is asking you for a source. But it really gets tedious to even find the point being made due to the extraneous flowery wording present in all of his writings. I guess no one ever taught him about “deadwood”.

Steve, sorry that you find the Writings tedious, but they perfectly reflect Baha’i belief. My personal opinions are not important. Jesus, and all the Manifestations, were not primarily about physical sideshows. They were about opening spiritual eyes, ears and hearts, reviving the spiritually dead, and providing an entrance to the Kingdom of God.

As Abdu’l-Baha said, the fact that they triumph over all opposition, subdue their enemies and change individuals and humanity at large is the true miracle.

 

[Nick44]

Who decides this, Nick? Who decides that it is always wrong to steal and lie and murder but that it is acceptable to divorce and commit adultery depending upon the Manifestation’s desire for another woman and the local laws of his time.
.

Since we believe that the Manifestations perfectly reveal God’s Will for the age in which They appear, that is the answer.

 

[eddie_too]

steve,

i believe it may be impossible to reasonably and profitably engage sophists. from my perspective, sophistry is the coin of the realm for bahais.

i believe this has been demonstrated repeatedly on all of the threads in which the bahai followers have participated here at catholic answers.

it is why i have tried, not always successfully, to avoid engaging in the sophistry and instead tried to illuminate how the sophistry distorts and prevaricates the life, resurrection and teachings of Jesus Christ as well as His holy, catholic church.

i do not wish to impugn evil motives to the bahai who post here. instead i am hopeful that they are simply misled as aresult of their ignorance of teachings of Jesus and the RCC.

 

[eddie_too]

in any respect, i will agree it is better that the bahai embrace truth, love and beauty, even in a most ignorant manner than for them to oppose truth, love an beauty.

this is also something we can postively state about all of the man made religions.

God has put in every man the desire to know, love and serve the divine.

all of the man made religions develop out of this God given gift that every human being, sometimes those possessing this gift not even realizing it, possesses.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Nick

On a different topic…

Don’t you think that the Baha’i belief in the “concourse on high” and the Catholic “communion of saints”, are both very similar? Baha’is seem to believe in the power and possibility of intercessory prayer, which naturally has a venerable history in Western Christianity.

I am also struck by Baha’u’llah’s utilization of Eucharistic imagery in his tablet to Pope Pius IX (The Lawh-i-Pap):

“…Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence. First drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths…”

- Baha’u’llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts, 105, p. 56

As a person who has from childhood been involved in the celebration of Holy Mass, it appears that Baha’u’llah is referring, symbolically, to the Most Holy Sacrament of Communion - or “the Eucharist”. This sacred rite, is of course, the corporate sharing of the Body and Blood of Jesus after the consecration of the sacred host. It is rightly called “communion” because not only is it done in “remembrance” of Jesus but it is a means by which he is substantially present and it is a focal point of unity in the shared “host” for Catholic Christians worldwide. Baha’u’llah uses its imagery as a metaphor for, I think, religious unity among different faiths.

Communion imagery of the cup of Christ’s “blood” is I think an apt one to use given its explicit relationship to unity (ie of the Body of Christ: the Church and her members).

 

[Vouthon]

in any respect, i will agree it is better that the bahai embrace truth, love and beauty, even in a most ignorant manner than for them to oppose truth, love an beauty.

It is also possible for us, that we may accept that the Baha’i are not lacking in “divine inspiration”. After all, did not St. Thomas Aquinas teach:

“…All that is true, by whomsoever it has been said, has its origin in the Spirit…”

***- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), Catholic theologian, mystic and Doctor of the Church ***

These religions arise from man’s openness to God and longing for union with Him. It is from such openness, and human searching, that even through “shadows” men touch upon the truth and then form rites, sacred writings, rituals and other means of expressing, preserving and transmitting it to their peers as well as to future generations. The Holy Spirit is present in such endeavours, as Blessed Pope John Paul II made clear:

"…Every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God’s Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions.

In every authentic religious experience, the most characteristic expression is prayer. Because of the human spirit’s constitutive openness to God’s action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that “every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person”. We experienced an eloquent manifestation of this truth at the World Day of Prayer for Peace on 27 October 1986 in Assisi, and on other similar occasions of great spiritual intensity. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. “The Spirit’s presence and activity”, as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, "affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions…"

***- Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience Address, September 16, 1998, Vatican ***

Remember that Christ, according to the Fathers, is the “Logos” the “reason” present to every human conscience. All truth is Christian truth, as St. Justin Martyr explained:

“…All truth, wherever it is found, belongs to us as Christians and is Christian truth…”

***- Saint Justin Martyr (AD 100–165), Early Catholic Church Father ***

Where the Baha’i Faith touches upon truths taught and known in the deposit of faith that the Church preserves, then Christ who is the Truth is present among them.

 

[tonyfish58]

Jesus told His followers that He would raise His body from the dead.

the bahai teach people that Jesus was mistaken or lying when He told His followers that He would raise His body from the dead.

who ya gonna believe, Jesus or the bahai?

The Word of God is to who one must turn, it is not a duel

The source of truth is One God, it is man that divides. Mankind must use reason to make that judgement. We now have the capacity to realise that God is One, Religion is One and Mankind Is One.

Lets make it so! God Bless

Regards Tony

 

[Vouthon]

I will add, that we should be mindful of something when dialoguing with believers of other faiths.

We should not be surprised to find the Holy Spirit already at work among them. We should not be surprised, likewise, if our understanding of our faith is purified by the noble qualities and gifts present in followers of other religions:

"…This means that, while entering with an open mind into dialogue with the followers of other religious traditions, Christians may have also to challenge them in a peaceful spirit with regard to the content of their belief. **But Christians too must allow themselves to be questioned. Notwithstanding the fullness of God’s revelation in Jesus Christ, the way Christians sometimes understand their religion and practise it may be in need of purification…**In this dialogue of salvation, Christians and others are called to collaborate with the Spirit of the Risen Lord who is universally present and active…

Dialogue requires, on the part of Christians as well as of the followers of other traditions, a balanced attitude. They should be neither ingenuous nor overly critical, but open and receptive. Unselfishness and impartiality, acceptance of differences and of possible contradictions, have already been mentioned. The will to engage together in commitment to the truth and the readiness to allow oneself to be transformed by the encounter are other dispositions required…

While keeping their identity intact, Christians must be prepared to learn and to receive from and through others the positive values of their traditions. Through dialogue they may be moved to give up ingrained prejudices, to revise preconceived ideas, and even sometimes to allow the understanding of their faith to be purified.

If Christians cultivate such openness and allow themselves to be tested, they will be able to gather the fruits of dialogue. They will discover with admiration all that God’s action through Jesus Christ in his Spirit has accomplished and continues to accomplish in the world and in the whole of humankind. Far from weakening their own faith, true dialogue will deepen it. They will become increasingly aware of their Christian identity and perceive more clearly the distinctive elements of the Christian message. Their faith will gain new dimensions as they discover the active presence of the mystery of Jesus Christ beyond the visible boundaries of the Church and of the Christian fold…"

- Dialogue and Proclamation, PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, 1991

The above is from a Vatican document from 1991 on the true spirit of interreligious dialogue:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_19051991_dialogue-and-proclamatio_en.html

I think that its guiding principles to Catholics are very similar in spirit to Baha’i teachings on the same topic ie

**

“Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship”

- Baha’u’llah

**

Our dear Rinnie has herself said that she has learned from her Baha’i brothers and sisters about how to better control “anger”. That is in the true “spirit” of dialogue

 

[tonyfish58]

Then you are agreeing that there is such a thing as objective truth; truth that never changes; truth that exists whether or not anyone believes it. Am I correct?

So if it is objectively wrong to commit adultery, then it is always wrong to commit adultery. Yet Baha’u’llah did commit adultery the moment he consummated his marriage to his second wife.

The fundamentals of religion do not change, only the laws applicable to the age they were revealed. This change has always been a Veil to the previous followers of a religion. Here is an extract form The Ki tab-i-iquan - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

…"In like manner, strive thou to comprehend from these lucid, these powerful, conclusive, and unequivocal statements the meaning of the “cleaving of the heaven”—one of the signs that must needs herald the coming of the last Hour, the Day of Resurrection. As He hath said: “When the heaven shall be cloven asunder.” By “heaven” is meant the heaven of divine Revelation, which is elevated with every Manifestation, and rent asunder with every subsequent one. By “cloven asunder” is meant that the former Dispensation is superseded and annulled. I swear by God! That this heaven being cloven asunder is, to the discerning, an act mightier than the cleaving of the skies! Ponder a while. That a divine Revelation which for years hath been securely established; beneath whose shadow all who have embraced it have been reared and nurtured; by the light of whose law generations of men have been disciplined; the excellency of whose word men have heard recounted by their fathers; in such wise that human eye hath beheld naught but the pervading influence of its grace, and mortal ear hath heard naught but the resounding majesty of its command—what act is mightier than that such a Revelation should, by the power of God, be “cloven asunder” and be abolished at the appearance of one soul? Reflect, is this a mightier act than that which these abject and foolish men have imagined the “cleaving of the heaven” to mean?

Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

lying about Jesus Christ and His life and teachings does not come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Vouthon]

lying about Jesus Christ and His life and teachings does not come from the Holy Spirit.

Obviously religions outwith the church will have errors along with truths; “lies” is somewhat more of a strong word, since it imputes deliberate falsification with malicious intent. An error may be well-intentioned and conducted out of the belief that one is faithfully witnessing too the truth. I feel that we should charitably hope and act upon that conviction whenever possible.

 

[Nick44]

Dear Nick

On a different topic…

Don’t you think that the Baha’i belief in the “concourse on high” and the Catholic “communion of saints”, are both very similar? Baha’is seem to believe in the power and possibility of intercessory prayer, which naturally has a venerable history in Western Christianity.

Absolutely, very perceptive of you! Different words describing a similar situation. Baha’is are encouraged to pray for the souls of those departed as they in turn pray for our progress.

Vouthon, I’d like to also thank you for both your tone and presentation. IMO, you demonstrate both Catholic action and charity in a praiseworthy way.

 

[Vouthon]

Absolutely, very perceptive of you! Different words describing a similar situation. Baha’is are encouraged to pray for the souls of those departed as they in turn pray for our progress.

Amen This is certainly a shared practice and theological understanding between our two religions. Indeed Evangelical Protestants do not recognize intercession of saints, so on that point (despite our differences in other key areas) Catholicism is closer to the Baha’i Faith than to some other denominations within Christianity.

Many Protestant churches strongly reject all saintly intercession. I would hope that my fellow Catholics could applaud this aspect of Baha’i belief.

For their benefit, I would like to quote this about a question asked to Abdu’l-Baha:

"…Someone present asked how it was that in prayer and meditation the heart often turns with instinctive appeal to some friend who has passed into the next life.

'Abdu’l-Bahá answered, “It is a law of God’s creation that the weak should lean upon the strong. Those to whom you turn may be the mediators of God’s power to you, even as when on earth. But it is the One Holy Spirit who strengthens all men…Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation. In prayer there is a mingling of station, a mingling of condition. Pray for them as they pray for you!”…"

('Abdu’l-Bahá, 'Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 97; quoted in Hushidar Motlagh, Unto Him Shall We Return: Selections from the Bahá’í Writings on the Reality and Immortality of the Human Soul, p. 97)

Not only does this concourse exist but it is my understanding (and please correct me if wrong) that it is also a source for progress in the world, an inspiration in the arts and advancements in the sciences of this world too. It includes all the Manifestations and prophets of past dispensations:

Hereupon another friend referred to the communing of Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah; and 'Abdu’l-Bahá said: “The faithful are ever sustained by the presence of the Supreme Concourse. In the Supreme Concourse are Jesus, and Moses, and Elijah, and Bahá’u’lláh, and other supreme Souls: there, also, are the martyrs.”

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 97

“Thus you might look upon your own difficulties in the path of service. They are the means of your spirit growing and developing. You will suddenly find that you have conquered many of the problems which upset you, and then you will wonder why they should have troubled you at all. An individual must centre his whole heart and mind on service to the Cause, in accordance with the high standards set by Baháʾuʾlláh. When this is done, the Hosts of the Supreme Concourse will come to the assistance of the individual, and every difficulty and trial will gradually be overcome”

***- Lights of Guidance, number 2042. From a letter, dated October 6, 1954. On behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual Baháʾí ***

It is also made evident by this passage from Baha’u’llah about Jesus:

“…Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole of Creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. **The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent spirit **. . . He it is who purified the world. Blessed the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him…”

**(Gleanings 86) **

The advancements of Christian civilisation are attributed to the motive power of Jesus’ spirit.

Vouthon, I’d like to also thank you for both your tone and presentation. IMO, you demonstrate both Catholic action and charity in a praiseworthy way.

Bless you Nick. I can certainly say the same for yourself and the other Baha’is on here. You have conducted yourself in an exemplary manner (in the face of many challenges during this thread that could have led one to react otherwise).

My purpose is less to “debate” and more to “discuss”. Given that my peers are making valid attempts to emphasise where Catholicism and the Baha’i Faith diverge, I would like to offer the other side of the coin: **Where and on what issues do we agree? **. In the process, we will likely find disagreements as well. Hopefully we can politely respect those differences rather than make them a cause for offense or religious “one-upmanship”

 

[eddie_too]

areas of agreement are well enough.

with whom can a person NOT find something to agree?

even the atheist professes attributes with which a catholic can agree.

so, after we identify our areas of agreement, we are finished in our discussion?

are there degrees of understanding of the truth?

if there are, is a person not remiss to advocate for the greatest understanding of the truth?

is it not the disagreements that divide far more than the agreements unite?

is not unity only produced by eliminating the disagreements?

 

[SteveVH]

Since we believe that the Manifestations perfectly reveal God’s Will for the age in which They appear, that is the answer.

That is no answer at all.

 

[Nick44]

That is no answer at all.

John 6:38

 

[SteveVH]

Nick, once again, let us review.

This was my question:

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Who decides this, Nick? Who decides that it is always wrong to steal and lie and murder but that it is acceptable to divorce and commit adultery depending upon the Manifestation’s desire for another woman and the local laws of his time.

This was your response:

Originally Posted by Nick44
Since we believe that the Manifestations perfectly reveal God’s Will for the age in which They appear, that is the answer.

This was my response:

Originally Posted by SteveVH
That is no answer at all.

And, finally, your last comment

John 6:38

That quote is as follows: “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”

 

[Nick44]

That quote is as follows: “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”

Right. Jesus was carrying out the Will of God, not His own will. The Manifestations aren’t ‘winging’ it. They reveal the Will of God for the age in which they appear. Therefore, if any changes are made from what was previously revealed, that change is sanctioned by and originates from God.

 

[Nick44]

Right. Jesus was carrying out the Will of God, not His own will. The Manifestations aren’t ‘winging’ it. They reveal the Will of God for the age in which they appear. Therefore, if any changes are made from what was previously revealed, that change is sanctioned by and originates from God.

Let me add from Baha’u’llah and the New Era, pg 45:

“His human personality had been chosen by God to become the Divine Mouthpiece and Pen. It was not of His own will that He had assumed this position of unparalleled difficulty and hardship. As Jesus said: “Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me,” so Bahá’u’lláh said: “Had another exponent or speaker been found, We would not have made Ourself an object of censure, derision and calumnies on the part of the people” (Tablet of Ishráqát). But the divine call was clear and imperative and He obeyed. God’s will became His will, and God’s pleasure, His pleasure; and with “radiant acquiescence” He declared:—“Verily I say: Whatever befalleth in the path of God is the beloved of the soul and the desire of the heart. Deadly poison in His path is pure honey, and every tribulation a draught of crystal water.”—Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 17.
At other times, as we have mentioned, Bahá’u’lláh speaks “from the station of Deity.” In these utterances His human personality is so completely subservient that it is left out of account altogether. Through Him God addresses His creatures, proclaiming His love for them, teaching them His attributes, making known His will, announcing His laws for their guidance and pleading for their love, their allegiance and service.”