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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Yes or no.Wow
Post #458 and #459
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Servant19
Guest
LOL!! I do enjoy your banter!
Ok, your question was:
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“Do we as Christians, when we worship Jesus christ of Nazereth worship that which is not God? Yes or no?” *
My answer;
When you worship Jesus as God, you are worshipping GOD! Absolutely!
When I worship God, I am in actuality worshipping Baha’u’llah.
Baha’u’llah is the only God I can know. He manifested Himself in human form IN ORDER that I may get to know God. I CANNOT know God by any other means.
The same goes for Jesus.
I see Baha’u’llah and Jesus as the exact same entity in different flesh clothing, that is all.
Does that answer your question honestly enough?
[SIGN]please say yes![/SIGN]
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daler
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Ignatian,
. I am being clear, sincere, and honest for you. Not “for once” (This is exceedingly arrogant of you, by the way), but always, and to the best of my ability, both cognitively and spiritually, factual and truthful.
. My answer to you is this. If you worship “the Mirror” with the intent and sincere desire to worship God, Who casts His Light into that Mirror, which perfectly reflects His Light, then you are worshipping God, in my humble opinion.
. My greater understanding is, however, that the purpose of the Mirror, or Divine Manifestation, is to draw us near unto God, that we fay fulfill the purpose of our being, which is to “know and worship God”.
The following is the Baha’i Short Obligatory Prayer, said daily, around noon or so:
. “I bear witness Oh my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
The beginning of the Long Obligatory Prayer is as follows:
. “O Thou Who art the Lord of all names and the Maker of the heavens!
. I beseech Thee by Them Who are the Daysprings of Thine invisible Essence,
. the Most Exalted, the All Glorious,
. to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils
. which have shut me out from Thy beauty,
. and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence…”
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daler
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Josh,
. I just wanted to thank you for saying this in such a clear and beautiful way. When people do not welcome the Prophets Whom God sends, they indeed do not welcome God.
. “Man does not live by bread alone, but by “every word” which the mouth of the Lord shall utter.” . Jesus
. Hence, it occurs to me that we must always listen for the Voice of God being uttered through the Mouthpiece of God, Who is His chosen Instrument and the means by which He speaks to us.
. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” . Jesus
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tonyfish58
Guest
Post Post #458 and #459 & #460 Link - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11348806&postcount=460
To give an answer you must know the sum otherwise thew answer is worth not a thing.
If post # 460 was not clear enough, I am more than sure the yes and no will not be! So I will leave this to you and say no more!
Regards Tony
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josh987654321
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Thank you
May I ask, What do you believe about the Holy Eucharist?
God Bless.
May I ask, what do you think of this passage here - Matthew 24:23-28?LOL!! I do enjoy your banter!
Ok, your question was:
*
“Do we as Christians, when we worship Jesus christ of Nazereth worship that which is not God? Yes or no?” *
My answer;
When you worship Jesus as God, you are worshipping GOD! Absolutely!
When I worship God, I am in actuality worshipping Baha’u’llah.
Baha’u’llah is the only God I can know. He manifested Himself in human form IN ORDER that I may get to know God. I CANNOT know God by any other means.
The same goes for Jesus.
I see Baha’u’llah and Jesus as the exact same entity in different flesh clothing, that is all.
Does that answer your question honestly enough?
[SIGN]please say yes![/SIGN]
Gospel of Matthew:
Thank you
God Bless
Josh
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Servant19
Guest
Hi Josh,
I think this is a very legitimate question for any Christian to ask.
I personally see it within the context of the time in which it was said. I’m sure you would agree with me that at the time, Jesus was not the only Messiah claimant, nor the only Son of God claimant. There was Simon bar Kokhbah, Simon of Parea, Menahem Ben Judah, as well as even some of the Roman Emperors were titled “Son of God”
The REAL Son of God, the REAL Messiah is not that common.
Baha’is believe that the real Sons of God (or Manifestations of God, as Baha’is call Them) are incredibly few and far between and bring about a new civilisation of men who strive to advance the “body” of humanity towards greater spiritual awareness and alignment with the Will of God. They come from age to age and bring with them a code of Laws and Teachings which are grounded in the same spiritual values, as taught by Abraham and Moses, yet are adapted to be applied to an ever evolving body of humankind.
In this sense, then, because the values are grounded in Godliness and spirituality and matters of the heart, all these Sons of God are united, yet they differ in the application of these values. Because they are united at the core, those who recognize and value the core spirit, will recognize it from any Source. So when Jesus says in John 10: " My sheep know my voice", if we are His sheep and He is the Shepherd, then we would know Him wherever we hear His voice.
It is hoped that in Baha’u’llah’s Voice, Christians will hear Christs Voice, and in His actions they will see Christs actions. The Voice is the same, the teachings differ so that the same same Spirit may be applied to today’s globally complex environment in order to bring together all nations under One Fold. Baha’u’llah’s son, Abdu’l-Baha is considered by Baha’is as the perfect example of what it means to be a Baha’i. He is known as the “Mystery of God” “The Perfect Exemplar of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation” and it is to him that all Baha’is turn to find someone to model their lives by.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%60Abdu%27l-Bah%C3%A1
It is hoped that Baha’u’llahs Voice is not in the same category as Simon bar Kokhbah or any of the modern day “Son of God” claimants.
I invite you to investigate the difference between Baha’u’llahs Voice and the other punitive voices of this and previous generations for yourself.
Hopefully you will see the fruits are Christ-like, and the Voice is similarly so
God bless you Josh
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tonyfish58
Guest
Josh - In many religions the sharing of food or a meal is a religious rite. The most important example is the Christian Eucharist or Holy communion, the `Lord’s Supper’. This is the ritualized reenactment of the last meal that Jesus shared with His disciples.
As Baha’is we partake and see this Feast as Symbolically being the Love and Knowledge of God through Christ.
We get together as a community and it is a devotional/administrative gathering known as a 19 Day Feast. At this we have a spiritual section where we Partake of the Love and Knowledge of God. Here is a link - bahai-library.com/walbridge_encyclopedia_feast
Matthew 24:23-28 - I see an important part of this section being “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be”. This tells me even though there are warnings, it will happen.
It is important to go back before this and use the other Bile references as well, this way we have a Warning and we Have the way to Make a decision
True and False Prophets
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
God bless - Regards Tony
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
No, you do not, and you know that. The same goes for the use of icons, and the churches full of images and statues. To an outsider it may look like idolatry, but one has to adopt an insider perspective to see what is really happening. It is the divine that is manifest in Jesus that is worshipped, and in the the icons the worshipper sees not a painting but man “in the image of God,” finally transfigured “into his likeness,” to quote the catechism.
Ideally, we should all refrain from judgement until we have obtained that insider perspective. If you have come across Bahais who say that Christians worship what is not-God, ie idolatry, I can only say I am very sorry to hear it.
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daler
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Josh,
. My perspective comes from being raised among the Sioux in Dances With Wolves country, born on the Reservation, and their very spiritual ways influenced me much and complimented my Christian beliefs in a significant way.
. For example, in the use of the Sacred Pipe Ceremony, there are symbols in the make up of the Pipe itself, and in the use of it in a sacred manner. Grass or tobacco is taken from the creation, put into the pipe, prayers are said, and the image is that the prayer rises with the smoke. High in the sky the Spotted Eagle circles overhead until the smoke rises. Then it takes the prayers off to the Great Spirit.
. Consider the similarities between the grass and the bread, the smoke and the wine, the Eagle and the Dove. They are all there. All are symbols, and the use of the eucharist and that of the Pipe, each in their own native culture, effect an imagery of unity with the Father, God, the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka.
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tonyfish58
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daler
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Indeed, Josh, there have been hundreds of false Messiahs. You can taste their bitter fruit and spit them out, as there is nothing to them.
Christ also spoke of His Return, as you say, from the East. He also said to look to Daniel the Prophet in regards to His coming. Among the hundreds of prophecies, here are just a couple.
Jeremiah 49 states “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which is SW Persia today.
Daniel had his great vision while in Elam, foretelling when Messiah shall be “cut off” or crucified after 70 weeks (of years) or 490 years, after the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which began in 457 BC under Artaxerxes. He was crucified exactly 490 years later. This establishes a starting point for the 2300 days (years) prophecy of Daniel, which ended in 1844 with the coming of the Bab, in Shiraz, Persia, Who was to Baha’u’llah what John the Baptist was to Christ.
Daniel gives 3 important figures: 1260, 1280, & 1290
The year 1260 AH (Muslim calendar) = 1844 AD (Christian calendar), which is the end of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel. This is the year of the Declaration of the Bab, which was followed in the year 1280 AH, which is 1863, the year of the Declaration of Baha’u’llah, also from Persia.
The year 1290 AH is also the year 1863 AD, as it starts with the public proclamation of Muhammad in 613 AD, which was ten years prior to the beginning of the Muslim Calendar in 622 AD. (They use lunar years) Thus, 1280 and 1290 are both fulfilled in the year 1863, when Baha’u’llah publicly proclaimed Himself to be the Promised One of all religions while exiled in Baghdad.
Countless other prophecies, each as specific as these, point solely to the appearance of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, Who was imprisoned and exiled for 40 years, beginning in the east and traveling to the west, as the lightening, finally to Akka, in Palestine, and Mt Carmel, the Mountain of the Lord, in Israel
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IgnatianPhilo
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I can define the worship of icons and the worship of Christ and how they are different. When I use the icon, it is to help bring focus to the prototype, that is the individual the picture represents and not the picture itself. But I do not worship Christ in that manner. I worship Christ, probably in the same sense that you worship that which you call God and give to no other. Will you say you give the same amount of honour and worship to that of Mirza hussain? Take in mind what it means to answer in the positive, that means you give him every honour and glory as if it were all thanks to him, your existence and everything. I don’t think bahai do that, but I am sure I will not receive a clear answer, so I hope you will be clear in your responce. Though I will say sen, you are the most intellectually honest bahai on this forum.
Here is where I stand. Bahai say Jesus is not God (don’t twist it into saying he has some sort of divinity which in reality you consider something different from the Divinity of your God). Christians worship Jesus totally as if he were God, we attribute all glory and honour and praise to him and all the members of the trinity. It isn’t us just praising Jesus as a servant, it is praising him for our very existence, for being the one who gave us meaning and salvation which is due to him. Him who we say has the exact same essence as God the father. Bahai do not believe in this. To the Bahai Jesus is inferior to God, above all creation, an arrianistic viewpoint to be sure which is complicated with all of the manifestations having this supposed standing. Thats the thing though, we are attributing everything to Jesus which (by your view) he does not deserve (Jesus denies worship of him in the quran which you accept) and which he does not possess (allah can destroy Jesus should he will it according to the quran and this would not destroy God or disfigure him). There should be a level of displeasure if you really accept what we Christians say and think about Christ, but there isn’t and I don’t get it. Disgust at evil and falsehood is not bad, its good.
So I ask, with this clarified as much as possibly can. How can you say Christians are worshipping the true God? Its like you don’t believe us when we say we really worship Jesus as God. Is it mandated for you to believe that we must all be worshipping the same God? Because to me it seems evidently clear our Gods are totally different in character, will and what they have done.
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IgnatianPhilo
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arthra
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“We are saying the Mirror is the source of the light, we are saying the mirror is the light itself, the light that leads every man into salvation.”
You are saying that for you the “mirror” is the light… I think from what you wrote you are saying you would be attached to the mirror … It’s unique characteristics … rather than the light. Yes that’s pretty clear.
I believe the issue you pose has been addressed in the following:
*The Sun of Divinity and of Reality has revealed itself in various mirrors. Though these mirrors are many, yet the Sun is one. The bestowals of God are one; the reality of the divine religion is one. Consider how one and the same light has reflected itself in the different mirrors or manifestations of it.
There are certain souls who are lovers of the Sun; they perceive the effulgence of the Sun from every mirror. They are not fettered or attached to the mirrors; they are attached to the Sun itself and adore it, no matter from what point it may shine.
But those who adore the mirror and are attached to it become deprived of witnessing the light of the Sun when it shines forth from another mirror.
For instance, the Sun of Reality revealed itself from the Mosaic mirror. The people who were sincere accepted and believed in it.
When the same Sun shone from the Messianic mirror, the Jews who were not lovers of the Sun and who were fettered by their adoration of the mirror of Moses did not perceive the lights and effulgences of the Sun of Reality resplendent in Jesus; therefore, they were deprived of its bestowals. Yet the Sun of Reality, the Word of God, shone from the Messianic mirror through the wonderful channel of Jesus Christ more fully and more wonderfully. Its effulgences were manifestly radiant, but even to this day the Jews are holding to the Mosaic mirror. Therefore, they are bereft of witnessing the lights of eternity in Jesus.*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 115
You are saying that for you the “mirror” is the light… I think from what you wrote you are saying you would be attached to the mirror … It’s unique characteristics … rather than the light. Yes that’s pretty clear.
I believe the issue you pose has been addressed in the following:
*The Sun of Divinity and of Reality has revealed itself in various mirrors. Though these mirrors are many, yet the Sun is one. The bestowals of God are one; the reality of the divine religion is one. Consider how one and the same light has reflected itself in the different mirrors or manifestations of it.
There are certain souls who are lovers of the Sun; they perceive the effulgence of the Sun from every mirror. They are not fettered or attached to the mirrors; they are attached to the Sun itself and adore it, no matter from what point it may shine.
But those who adore the mirror and are attached to it become deprived of witnessing the light of the Sun when it shines forth from another mirror.
For instance, the Sun of Reality revealed itself from the Mosaic mirror. The people who were sincere accepted and believed in it.
When the same Sun shone from the Messianic mirror, the Jews who were not lovers of the Sun and who were fettered by their adoration of the mirror of Moses did not perceive the lights and effulgences of the Sun of Reality resplendent in Jesus; therefore, they were deprived of its bestowals. Yet the Sun of Reality, the Word of God, shone from the Messianic mirror through the wonderful channel of Jesus Christ more fully and more wonderfully. Its effulgences were manifestly radiant, but even to this day the Jews are holding to the Mosaic mirror. Therefore, they are bereft of witnessing the lights of eternity in Jesus.*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 115
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eddie_too
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the bahai believe that they should work to establish a one world government. it is an essential element of their belief system. it is a totally political objective.
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Servant19
Guest
daler;11351786:
My friend, nothing you say any more horrifies me
You can say as much as you like that the Mirror itself is the Source of the Light. This is what happens when you get incredibly attached to the Mirror, you grab hold of it and want it for yourself, you always want to be near it, and when you are that proximal to the Mirror, it can certainly look that way, that it is the Source of Light.
But, stand back and view it from another angle, and you will come to the Absolute Truth in realising that… Mirrors don’t produce Light…
Attachment to anything except our Father, (and Jesus’ Father) will produce erroneous results
In the Ma’idiy-i-Asamani, Baha’u’llah states that there are three barriers between God and man. He exhorts the believers to pass beyond them so that they may be enabled to attain His presence. The first one is attachment to this mortal world. The second is attachment to the next world and all that is destined for man in the life hereafter. And the third is attachment to the ‘Kingdom of Names’.
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eddie_too
Guest
this assertion by the bahai that, “Attachment to anything except our Father, (and Jesus’ Father) will produce erroneous results.” is based on ignorance and incoherence of thought.
it is totally wrong and completely unsupportable.
the sole support for such an assertion are the words of a few arrogant and supercilious salesman located in the middle east in the 19th century.
face it. the bahai are nothing more than a political movement whose primary objective is a one world government.
the bahai followers believe by linking their political objectives to religion and belief in God they will be more successful.
there is no salvation in bahaism because the bahai have no rational understanding of salvation and the need of every person for salvation.
salvation is needed because we humans sin.
Jesus Christ offered His life on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven by almighty God. we finite humans had no way to atone to our infinite Creator for our offenses against Him. only a Perfect Sacrifice, i.e. the Infinite and Incarnate Word, could provide sufficient atonement for our sins.
the bahai believe that flowery words from men desperate for respect from other humans replaces the infinite sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.
it is totally wrong and completely unsupportable.
the sole support for such an assertion are the words of a few arrogant and supercilious salesman located in the middle east in the 19th century.
face it. the bahai are nothing more than a political movement whose primary objective is a one world government.
the bahai followers believe by linking their political objectives to religion and belief in God they will be more successful.
there is no salvation in bahaism because the bahai have no rational understanding of salvation and the need of every person for salvation.
salvation is needed because we humans sin.
Jesus Christ offered His life on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven by almighty God. we finite humans had no way to atone to our infinite Creator for our offenses against Him. only a Perfect Sacrifice, i.e. the Infinite and Incarnate Word, could provide sufficient atonement for our sins.
the bahai believe that flowery words from men desperate for respect from other humans replaces the infinite sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.
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Servant19
Guest
Eddie, can you answer this question for me please?
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