Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

According to your logic, if Bahais reject the Christian Jesus, do Christians reject the Jewish Moses?

Not at all. There is no such thing as the Jewish Moses and the Christian Moses. If you would like to point out a case in which Christians and Jews disagree on their views of Moses I would be most interested.

There seems to be a Baha’i preoccupation with comparing Christianity to Judaism in an effort to justify their existence. Not sure what that is about.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

It has been stated more than a few times on this series of Baha’i threads. Do you disagree with this position? Do you believe that Jesus rose physically from the grave and ate food with his disciples and at the same time walked through locked doors and disappeared at will? Much time has been spent on this subject and the Baha’i consensus, following the Muslim, rather than the Christian view, was that Jesus only rose spiritually.

I dont think Bahaullah wrote a Tablet to Christians arguing that Jesus did not Physically rise from the dead. When Bahai literature say that Jesus rose spiritually and not physically, these are interpretations, not statements written by Bahaullah in an absolutist sense addressed to the Christians.

Again, what does Bahaullah himself write to the Christians?

 

[eddie_too]

saying that Jesus’ physical body did not rise from the grave is interpreting the New Testament.

bahaullah knew the story of Jesus’ resurrection because bahaullah referred to Jesus in bahaullah’s writings.

i am not going to spend time perusing the hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of pages that bahaullah wrote trying to decipher what he might have meant.

it is apparent that even bahai are not sure what bahaullah taught since you, being a bahai, do not know that bahaullah taught that Jesus’ resurrection was not a resurrection of His physical body.

this is an elemental problem of the bahai, very few it any seem to know or agree on what bahaullah taught.

 

[SteveVH]

I am saying that Bahaullah’s writings need to be reviewed, what does Bahaullah actually write that leads to this widespread conclusion? i am not saying it is true or false, i am investigating what Bahaullah founder of the Bahai faith actually wrote. Does Bahaullah actually interpret the Bible as say a preacher would, or are his writing somehow different in character (good or bad).

Well, I think you are the only one that can answer that question.

 

[SteveVH]

I dont think Bahaullah wrote a Tablet to Christians arguing that Jesus did not Physically rise from the dead. When Bahai literature say that Jesus rose spiritually and not physically, these are interpretations, not statements written by Bahaullah in an absolutist sense addressed to the Christians.

Again, what does Bahaullah himself write to the Christians?

I don’t know. Why don’t you enlighten us?

It doesn’t really matter to whom his writings were addressed. Is he going to say something different to Christians than he would to the Baha’i? If so, then what is a Baha’i to believe?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Not at all. There is no such thing as the Jewish Moses and the Christian Moses. If you would like to point out a case in which Christians and Jews disagree on their views of Moses I would be most interested.

There seems to be a Baha’i preoccupation with comparing Christianity to Judaism in an effort to justify their existence. Not sure what that is about.

Very interesting. certainly The Christian Moses is different from the Jewish Moses who enjoin the Sabbath which was broken by the Christians. Have you encountered Jewish response to Christian missionaries and Jews for Judaism?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

I don’t know. Why don’t you enlighten us?

It doesn’t really matter to whom his writings were addressed. Is he going to say something different to Christians than he would to the Baha’i? If so, then what is a Baha’i to believe?

Yes I think so. here is one thing Bahaullah says to Christians:

O CONCOURSE of archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared. In the plain of guidance He calleth mankind, whilst ye are numbered with the dead! Great is the blessedness of him who is stirred by the Breeze of God, and hath arisen from amongst the dead in this perspicuous Name.

 

[SteveVH]

Very interesting. certainly The Christian Moses is different from the Jewish Moses who enjoin the Sabbath which was broken by the Christians. Have you encountered Jewish response to Christian missionaries and Jews for Judaism?

The difference is not with Moses. We deny nothing that Moses said. The difference is with Jesus, who freed us from the Mosaic law. We would agree that those Jews who reject Jesus are still subject to the Mosaic law, which no man can keep.

This would be akin to you accepting the Christian Jesus Christ; the fact that he is God; the fact that he suffered and died on a cross for the salvation of the world and the fact that he rose physically from the dead as evidence of his victory over sin and death, and then claim that Baha’u’llah somehow has even more to offer us.

But you don’t. You change the very identity of who Jesus Christ is, denying his divinity, denying his resurrection and all but ignoring his saving act upon the cross and his identity as the second Person of the Trinity. That’s the difference.

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote above:

*Do you believe that Jesus rose physically from the grave and ate food with his disciples and at the same time walked through locked doors and disappeared at will? Much time has been spent on this subject and the Baha’i consensus, following the Muslim, rather than the Christian view, was that Jesus only rose spiritually.

*Steven,

In some respects I think the Christian view of the resurrection is closer to some of the Islamic views…especially of the Judgement Day as they think Jesus is going to return literally and kill pigs and break crosses… Many Muslims also believe Muhammad ascended to heaven literally and physically in the Night Journey … So these views of literal physical ascensions and resurrections are not Baha’i views…

We take a different position from most Muslims and Christians in that respect.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Steven,

In some respects I think the Christian view of the resurrection is closer to some of the Islamic views…especially of the Judgement Day as they think Jesus is going to return literally and kill pigs and break crosses… Many Muslims also believe Muhammad ascended to heaven literally and physically in the Night Journey … So these views of literal physical ascensions and resurrections are not Baha’i views…

We take a different position from most Muslims and Christians in that respect.

artha, i am saying that this is a realization (that spiritual is different from physical) that comes later, it is an interpretation just as Christians and Muslims assert. You are right Both Muslims and Christians believe in physical resurrection. But we Bahais are putting the cart before the horse here.

 

[eddie_too]

see red sox, arthra says that bahaullah taught that Jesus did not rise His physical body from the grave.

are you really bahai, or are you just here trolling and know next to nothing about bahai teachings but pretend you do know?

 

[eddie_too]

sorry red sox,

i did not know that bahai disagreed on whether or not bahaullah denied the physical resurrection of Jesus.

what does your supreme council teach since it has all authority over interpreting the words of bahaullah?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

see red sox, arthra says that bahaullah taught that Jesus did not rise His physical body from the grave.

are you really bahai, or are you just here trolling and know next to nothing about bahai teachings but pretend you do know?

No Eddie I am not trolling. I am telling Artha that we are presenting interpretations to Christians instead of the Text and Word of God. I am sure he knows what I mean. As far as I am aware, Bahaullah never wrote a Tablet to any Christians saying “Jesus did not physically rise from the dead”. This is not a naked Bahai belief. It is a deduction from the idea that the physical world is a mirage of the spiritual world.

 

[SteveVH]

In some respects I think the Christian view of the resurrection is closer to some of the Islamic views…especially of the Judgement Day as they think Jesus is going to return literally and kill pigs and break crosses…

How is that in any way, shape or form, the Christian view? I promise you, the Muslim and Christian views of Christ are quite different.

We take a different position from most Muslims and Christians in that respect.

Then you and Red_Sox_1 need to have a conversation amongst yourselves. He appears to disagree that this is necessarily the Baha’i position.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

sorry red sox,

i did not know that bahai disagreed on whether or not bahaullah denied the physical resurrection of Jesus.

what does your supreme council teach since it has all authority over interpreting the words of bahaullah?

hi Eddie, lets first see if Bahaullah is true or false then we can see what Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi, and the House Justice have to say. i think we are getting ahead of ourselves.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Then you and Red_Sox_1 need to have a conversation amongst yourselves. He appears to disagree that this is necessarily the Baha’i position.

Dear Steve, you are certainly included in the discussion, Bahais embrace all mankind not just other Bahais. We consider Christians our brothers with no distinction or separation.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

What does Bahaullah write? Lets stop this discussion about resurrection for a moment we come back to it later. Lets break down the words of Bahaullah

O CONCOURSE of priests! The Day of Reckoning hath appeared, the Day whereon He Who was in heaven hath come. He, verily, is the One Whom ye were promised in the Books of God, the Holy, the Almighty, the All-Praised. How long will ye wander in the wilderness of heedlessness and superstition? Turn with your hearts in the direction of your Lord, the Forgiving, the Generous.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes I think so. here is one thing Bahaullah says to Christians:

O CONCOURSE of archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared. In the plain of guidance He calleth mankind, whilst ye are numbered with the dead! Great is the blessedness of him who is stirred by the Breeze of God, and hath arisen from amongst the dead in this perspicuous Name.

And what does he mean by “rising from the dead”? Does he mean physically and spiritually or just spiritually?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

And what does he mean by “rising from the dead”? Does he mean physically and spiritually or just spiritually?

how do I know. lets continue breaking down the words of bahaullah

 

[eddie_too]

brotherhood necessitates sharing. the scope of the sharing determines the extent of the brotherhood.

one can say that all men are brothers, meaning all men are human beings. this seems to be the bahai meaning of brotherhood.

but, if some men live and believe the opposite of other men, they may be called brothers by the bahai, but they would not be considered brothers in the sense of sharing complete agreement on the meaning and rules of life.

in other words, there are many different concepts of brotherhood used by human beings.

for catholics, brotherhood refers first to the relationship between the human beings who share the RC faith. they share its teachings, its practices and its beliefs.

so, perhaps we can distinguish when we use the words brother or brotherhood exactly what meaning we are giving them.

i.e. the universal brotherhood of men or the brotherhood created by shared faith are just two, but probably the most prevalent, uses of the words in these bahai threads.