Baha'i V

[eddie_too]

red sox,

you are interpreting bahaullah’s writings. but, i thought, according to the bahai faith, that only the court of justice possessed that authority.

should we not refer to them when we interpret bahaullah’s writings.

what do they say about Christ’s grave being empty and His disciples breaking bread with Him after His death and the disciples finding His tomb empty?

 

[SteveVH]

how do I know. lets continue breaking down the words of bahaullah

Well, you are Baha’i and I am not. So why don’t you break down the words of Baha’u’llah so that you know what your prophet teaches and then you can relate your findings to the rest of us.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox,

you are interpreting bahaullah’s writings. but, i thought, according to the bahai faith, that only the court of justice possessed that authority.

should we not refer to them when we interpret bahaullah’s writings.

what do they say about Christ’s grave being empty and His disciples breaking bread with Him after His death and the disciples finding His tomb empty?

hi Eddie,

I am staying away from interpretation altogether. I think that comes later, after one interacts with the Words of God directly.

Here’s another statement of Bahaullah as it related to Jews.

O CONCOURSE of bishops! Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth. My justice, however, declareth: ‘This is that which the Son (Jesus) hath decreed.’ And whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered. The bells, verily, peal out My Name, and lament over Me, but My spirit rejoiceth with evident gladness. The body of the Loved 94 One yearneth for the cross, and His head is eager for the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful. The ascendancy of the oppressor can in no wise deter Him from His purpose… The stars of the heaven of knowledge have fallen, they that adduce the proofs they possess in order to demonstrate the truth of My Cause, and who make mention of God in My name. When I came unto them, in My majesty, however, they turned aside from Me. They, verily, are of the fallen. This is what the Spirit (Jesus) prophesied when He came with the truth, and the Jewish doctors cavilled at Him, until they committed what made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the eyes of such as enjoy near access to God to weep.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Well, you are Baha’i and I am not. So why don’t you break down the words of Baha’u’llah so that you know what your prophet teaches and then you can relate your findings to the rest of us.

bahaullah strongly warns against this and says that each individual human being should interact with the Words of God directly without intervention of others.

 

[eddie_too]

i do not know where bahaullah got the idea that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. that concept is certainly not the concept of the RCs who wrote the New Testament.

so, it would seem that bahaullah is just making up his own interpretation of the New Testament instead of building upon the meaning intended to be conveyed by the RCs that wrote it.

just like the idea of a physical resurrection, bahaullah ignores the meaning of the New Testament established by the people who wrote it.

so, this quotation does provide support for the idea that bahaullah was very ignorant of what of the truths contained in the New Testament.

 

[SteveVH]

bahaullah strongly warns against this and says that each individual human being should interact with the Words of God directly without intervention of others.

Then how do you ever reach a consensus as to the true teachings of Baha’u’llah and why are you asking us to help break down his words?

 

[eddie_too]

bahaullah strongly warns against this and says that each individual human being should interact with the Words of God directly without intervention of others.

they why is there a body of elected bahai who are the final authority on the meaning of bahaullah’s writings?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

i do not know where bahaullah got the idea that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. that concept is certainly not the concept of the RCs who wrote the New Testament.

so, it would seem that bahaullah is just making up his own interpretation of the New Testament instead of building upon the meaning intended to be conveyed by the RCs that wrote it.

just like the idea of a physical resurrection, bahaullah ignores the meaning of the New Testament established by the people who wrote it.

so, this quotation does provide support for the idea that bahaullah was very ignorant of what of the truths contained in the New Testament.

Good question. The title “Spirit” is used because Ruhullah (Spirit of God) is one of the titles of Jesus in the Arabic language. I think it is a reference to God having breathed His Own Spirit into the body of Jesus.

 

[eddie_too]

red sox, no disrespect intended, but you sound like you are to the bahai what arias, or martin luther are to the RCC.

you will interpret bahaullah’s writings for yourself and what others understand is not that important because bahaullah’s writings speak to you on an individual level and that is all that matters.

that attitude is what has resulted in the creation of over 35,000 different christian sects.

 

[SteveVH]

i do not know where bahaullah got the idea that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. that concept is certainly not the concept of the RCs who wrote the New Testament.

so, it would seem that bahaullah is just making up his own interpretation of the New Testament instead of building upon the meaning intended to be conveyed by the RCs that wrote it.

just like the idea of a physical resurrection, bahaullah ignores the meaning of the New Testament established by the people who wrote it.

so, this quotation does provide support for the idea that bahaullah was very ignorant of what of the truths contained in the New Testament.

Yes. Mirza Husain, according to what I have read from him, never grasped Christian doctrine.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox, no disrespect intended, but you sound like you are to the bahai what arias, or martin luther are to the RCC.

you will interpret bahaullah’s writings for yourself and what others understand is not that important because bahaullah’s writings speak to you on an individual level and that is all that matters.

that attitude is what has resulted in the creation of over 35,000 different christian sects.

Not at all. All Bahais are united on a community level around the Universal House of Justice. The Bahai Faith has no sects because the Bahai lack of “theology” prevents this feom happening.

But anyway this is irrelevant anyway if one doesnt believe in Bahaullah in the first place. If Bahaullah is false, who cares if he appointed Abdul-Baha and the House of Justice in the Kitab-i-Aqdas? Who cares if Abdul-Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi?

 

[eddie_too]

maybe people would be more inclined to believe bahaullah knew what he was writing about if his writings indicated he had the remotest idea of what the New Testament meant.

for example, most of the bahai whom i have encountered, almost exclusively through these catholic answer threads, have informed me that the christian teaching of the resurrection of Jesus’ physical body is erroneous.

this idea, that Jesus did not resurrect His physical body and leave behind an empty sepulcher directly contradicts the people who wrote the New Testament.

as i said earlier, it is hard to identify the correct adjective to apply to someone who believes they have the authority to tell the people who wrote something that it means something different that the authors’ meant.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

maybe people would be more inclined to believe bahaullah knew what he was writing about if his writings indicated he had the remotest idea of what the New Testament meant.

for example, most of the bahai whom i have encountered, almost exclusively through these catholic answer threads, have informed me that the christian teaching of the resurrection of Jesus’ physical body is erroneous.

this idea, that Jesus did not resurrect His physical body and leave behind an empty sepulcher directly contradicts the people who wrote the New Testament.

as i said earlier, it is hard to identify the correct adjective to apply to someone who believes they have the authority to tell the people who wrote something that it means something different that the authors’ meant.

we’re still on the topic of resurrection. You do realize that both Muslims and Christians believe in physical resurrection of human beings, right? Muslims believe the body of Jesus and Muhammad went up to heaven physically, they just reject Jesus died, they say Jesus is still physically alive.

But lets stop discussing what people say and what people believe. RESURRECTION is a central Bahai topic, the entire claim of Bahaullah relies on Resurrection.

So lets see what Bahaullah wrote to Christians in terms of resurrection? Why do you care what Bahaullah wrote to Muslims if you already conclude that Muhammad was false?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

instead of being everywhere, we should focus our discussion more.

Here is an interesting selection Bahaullah says this to the monks of Christianity:

O concourse of monks! If ye choose to follow Me, I will make you heirs of My Kingdom; and if ye transgress against Me, I will, in My long-suffering, endure it patiently, and I, verily, am the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

 

[SteveVH]

we’re still on the topic of resurrection. You do realize that both Muslims and Christians believe in physical resurrection of human beings, right? Muslims believe the body of Jesus and Muhammad went up to heaven physically, they just reject Jesus died, they say Jesus is still alive.

But lets stop discussing what people say and what people believe. RESURRECTION is a central Bahai topic, the entire claim of Bahaullah relies on Resurrection.

So lets see what Bahaullah wrote to Christians in terms of resurrection? Why do you care what Bahaullah wrote to Muslims if you already conclude that Muhammad was false?

Because what ever he says to anyone, it should be consistent.

If we are not to care what he wrote to Muhammad because we believe Muhammad is a false prophet, then why would we care what Baha’u’llah wrote to anyone? We believe Baha’u’llah false prophet as well. We are just pointing out the inconsistencies in his teachings in order to bring these falsehoods to light.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Because what ever he says to anyone, it should be consistent.

If we are not to care what he wrote to Muhammad because we believe Muhammad is a false prophet, then why would we care what Baha’u’llah wrote to anyone? We believe Baha’u’llah false prophet as well. We are just pointing out the inconsistencies in his teachings in order to bring these falsehoods to light.

how can you have a discussion with anyone if you already conclude this? if you are not open to a fair discussion where we both can learn together it is not a real discussion.

it would be really easy for anyone to poke holes at Christianity as Atheists, Muslims, and Jews and Hindus do, but that wouldnt get us anywhere.

isnt it better to explore one another really to try to understand better? I am getting a better idea of resurrection and trinity of Christianity

 

[SteveVH]

instead of being everywhere, we should focus our discussion more.

Here is an interesting selection Bahaullah says this to the monks of Christianity:

O concourse of monks! If ye choose to follow Me, I will make you heirs of My Kingdom; and if ye transgress against Me, I will, in My long-suffering, endure it patiently, and I, verily, am the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when the monks received this message.

No Christian has a desire to be in Baha’u’llahs kingdom. Our only desire is Christ’s kingdom and we have been commanded to spread His kingdom to all nations, not by offering them a one world government run by men, but by offering the gift of eternal life which can only be accomplished through Christ.

 

[eddie_too]

should we really be trying to interpret the writings of bahaullah for ourselves when there exists an elected body of bahai who are considered the sole, true interpreters of bahaullahs words?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when the monks received this message.

No Christian has a desire to be in Baha’u’llahs kingdom. Our only desire is Christ’s kingdom and we have been commanded to spread His kingdom to all nations, not by offering them a one world government run by men, but by offering the gift of eternal life which can only be accomplished through Christ.

i understand, obviously you are a Christian and follower of Christ.

Here’s an interesting statement Bahaullah makes, what is your take on this? Bahaullah describes what Bethlehem said when Bahaullah arrived in the world:

**Bethlehem is astir with the Breeze of God. We hear her (Bethlehem) voice saying:

‘O most generous Lord! Where is Thy great glory established? The sweet savours of Thy presence have quickened me, after I had melted in my separation from Thee. Praised be Thou in that Thou hast raised the veils, and come with power in evident glory.’
**
Then Bahaullah responds to Bethlehem:

**We called unto her from behind the Tabernacle of Majesty and Grandeur:

‘O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and travelled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him (Jesus)?’
**

then Bethlehem answers Bahaullah:

**Whereupon she cried out saying: ‘Thou art, in truth, the All-Knowing, the Best-Informed.’ **

 

[SteveVH]

how can you have a discussion with anyone if you already conclude this? if you are not open to a fair discussion where we both can learn together it is not a real discussion.

it would be really easy for anyone to poke holes at Christianity as Atheists, Muslims, and Jews and Hindus do, but that wouldnt get us anywhere.

isnt it better to explore one another really to try to understand better? I am getting a better idea of resurrection and trinity of Christianity

Were you under the impression that us Christians are still searching for the Messiah? Do I have to hold out the possibility that 2000 years of Christianity is on the wrong path and abandon my belief in Jesus Christ as God’s only Word in order to have a discussion with you? Are you then willing to hold open the possibility that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet who is leading you away from Jesus Christ?

What you don’t seem to understand is that we don’t just believe a bunch of written doctrines and rules of behavior. We have experienced the Person of Christ. It is the difference between reading someone’s biography and meeting that person in the flesh. You have not met him. You have only read about him through the lens of one who has little or no understanding of who Christ is.