Baha'i V

[daler]

this can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean because it is all metaphorical.

maybe you bahai who are posting here are not doing a very good job of introducing us to bahaullah?

. When in Daniel and Revelation the description of the One Who was to come: “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, and “brass-like His feet”, and “out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword.”

. “How could these words be literally interpreted? Were anyone to appear with all these signs, he would assuredly not be human. And how could any soul seek his company?”

. “Behold, then, the foolish ones of bygone times and those who, in this day, await the advent of such a being! Nor would they ever bear allegiance to him except that he appear in the aforementioned form. And as such a being will never appear, so too will they never believe.” . . Baha’u’llah states.

. The reference to “His eyes”… “alludes to the keenness of sight and acuteness of vision of the Promised One, Who with His eyes burns away every veil and covering, makes known the eternal mysteries in the contingent world, and distinguishes the faces that are obscured with the dust of hell form those with the light of paradise.”

. As to “His feet” … “is meant His constancy upon hearing the call of God that commands Him: ‘Be thou steadfast as thou hast been bidden’. He shall persevere in the Cause of God, and evince such firmness in the path of His might, that even if the powers of earth and heaven were to deny Him, He would not waver in the proclamation of His Cause, nor flee from His command in the promulgation of His Laws. Nay rather, He will stand as firm as the highest mountains and the loftiest peaks. He will remain immovable in His obedience to God and steadfast in revealing His Cause and proclaiming His Word… Hast thou ever seen in this world brass stronger, or blade sharper, or mountain more unyielding than this?”

. And “Out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword” … “Know thou that since the sword is an instrument that divides and cleaves asunder, and since there proceeds out of the mouth of the Prophets and Chosen Ones of God that which separates believer from non-believer and lover from the beloved, the term hath been so employed, and apart from this dividing and separating no other meaning is intended… What sword is sharper than this heavenly sword, what blade more trenchant than this incorruptible steel that severs every tie and separates believer from the infidel, father from son, brother from sister, and lover from beloved?”

. “Nay, couldst thou but sharpen thy sight and refine thy heart, thou wouldst witness that all the material swords which in every day and age have slain the infidels and waged war against the impious proceed from this divine and invisible sword… Yet as these people have failed to acquire true knowledge from its source and wellspring… they have been veiled from that which God hath intended by those words and allusions and have remained confined within the prison of their own selves.”

. These are the Words of Baha’u’llah

.

 

[daler]

Okay. I read it. And what would you have me take away from it? That the monks who have hidden themselves in their churches have joined those who have gone astray because they refuse to acknowledge Baha’u’llah?

Steve,
. Thank you for patiently reading. The following is short, about 3 pages, and is applicable to your question regarding the monks. Although it is addressed by the Bab to a Muslim divine, the same principal would apply equally.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-9.html

,

 

[NoWings]

Not at all. All Bahais are united on a community level around the Universal House of Justice. The Bahai Faith has no sects because the Bahai lack of “theology” prevents this feom(sic) happening.

Oh, come on Red Sox. This old canard? This is absolutely and demonstrably false. There have been schisms and sects in the Baha’i faith since before Baha’u’llah proclaimed himself the successor to the Bab and you know this.

What about people that consider themselves Baha’i but have been forcefully removed from the membership roles? Are they Baha’is or are they imposters that have no right to label themselves as such?

Like, say… Sen there. What about him?

 

[Servant19]

Oh, come on Red Sox. This old canard? This is absolutely and demonstrably false. There have been schisms and sects in the Baha’i faith since before Baha’u’llah proclaimed himself the successor to the Bab and you know this.

What about people that consider themselves Baha’i but have been forcefully removed from the membership roles? Are they Baha’is or are they imposters that have no right to label themselves as such?

Like, say… Sen there. What about him?

Hi NoWings,

There are no sects of the Baha’i Faith. There is a CLEARLY defined Covenant in the Baha’i Writings which outlines EXACTLY who is the Head of the Baha’i Faith and who is clearly not. If people wish to claim for themselves leadership and violate this clear covenant between Baha’u’llah and His lovers in the human race, they are free to do so, but this does not indicate a schism, purely because of the clarity by which the Covenant has been made.

The breaking of the Covenant by several individuals throughout history does not mean that there are now several sects of the Baha’i Faith. They were simply excommunicated for valid reasons of wishing to impart leadership roles for themselves which were clearly against the written Word.

There are situations where administrative rights are removed from individuals who may break Baha’i law in the face of gentle counsel and repeated exhortation. These individuals are not excommunicated but have lessened administartive rights. They are still considered Baha’is and Baha’is are free to engage with them. They will have their administrative rights restored once their houses are back in line with Baha’i Teaching again.

Hope that helps

 

[arthra]

what does the supreme house of justice say about the resurrection of Jesus’ physical body from the grave? hmmmm?

The term we normally use is " the Universal House of Justice" … “Universal” because it is elected to serve all the Baha’is and representatives from all the National Spiritual Assemblies elect them every five years.

On the topic of the resurrection of Jesus…

“From a Bahá’í point of view the belief that the Resurrection was the return to life of a body of flesh and blood, which later rose from the earth into the sky is not reasonable, nor is it necessary to the essential truth of the disciples’ experience, which is that Jesus did not cease to exist when He was crucified (as would have been the belief of many Jews of that period), but that His Spirit, released from the body, ascended to the presence of God and continued to inspire and guide His followers and preside over the destinies of His dispensation.”

(The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

The Baha’i view was already expressed years before by Abdul-Baha Who was the interpreter of Baha’u’llah’s words:

*As to the resurrection of the body of Christ three days subsequent to His departure: This signifies the divine teachings and spiritual religion of His Holiness Christ, which constitute His spiritual body, which is living and perpetual forevermore.

By the "three days’ of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they become firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body - which signifies the divine word - arose.

Likewise the address of the angels to the people of Galilee, “That this Christ will return in the same way and that He will descend from heaven,” is a spiritual address. For when Christ appeared, he came from heaven, although He was outwardly born from the womb of Mary. For He said: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.”

He said: “I came down from heaven and likewise will go to heaven.” By “Heaven” is not meant this infinite phenomenal space, but “heaven” signifies the world of the divine kingdom which is the supreme station and seat of the Sun of Truth.*

“Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas”, Vol. 1 (Chicago: Bahá’í Publishing Society), p. 192

 

[Servant19]

bahaullah writes, "The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul."

this can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean because it is all metaphorical.

we all know that the river jordan is NOT joined to the most great ocean. it is joined to the dead sea.
we all know that mount sinai is not moving much less circling a house. and,

we all know the only burning bush ever heard of existed about three thousand years before bahaullah and the voice from the burning bush spoke to moses and said nothing about bahaullah.

we all know that the will of God is not something visible with an horizon.

so, knowing that none of that is literal, people can make up anything they want for its meaning.

Eddie, can you provide an intelligent understanding of what you think the passage quoted from Baha’u’llah’s Writings means, from your perspective, please?

We are all very capable of reading something and giving a perceived meaning which makes sense. Do you have the will to give us your meaning?

the more i hear about bahaullah and read what he wrote the more convinced i become that he is simply a man who became entranced with his own self-referential delusions.

Not according to the many thousands of individuals who entered His presence.

Here is a quotation from a Cambridge University orientalist, Edward. G. Browne, upon meeting Baha’u’llah:

“… my conductor paused for a moment while I removed my shoes. Then, with a quick movement of the hand, he withdrew, and, as I passed, replaced the curtain; and I found myself in a large apartment, along the upper end of which ran a low divan, while on the side opposite to the door were placed two or three chairs. Though I dimly suspected whither I was going and whom I was to behold (for no distinct intimation had been given to me), a second or two elapsed ere, with a throb of wonder and awe, I became definitely conscious that the room was not untenanted. In the corner where the divan met the wall sat a wondrous and venerable figure, crowned with a felt head-dress of the kind called taj by dervishes (but of unusual height and make), round the base of which was wound a small white turban. The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow; while the deep lines on the forehead and face implied an age which the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie. No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!
A mild dignified voice bade me be seated, and then continued: — “Praise be to God that thou has attained! … Thou has come to see a prisoner and an exile. … We desire but the good of the world and happiness of the nations; yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment. … That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled — what harm is there in this? … Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the `Most Great Peace’ shall come. … Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold? … Yet do we see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind. … These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family. … Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. …”
Such, so far as I can recall them, were the words which, besides many others, I heard from Baha. Let those who read them consider well with themselves whether such doctrines merit death and bonds, and whether the world is more likely gain or lose by their diffusion.”

 

[Servant19]

maybe you bahai who are posting here are not doing a very good job of introducing us to bahaullah?

This may be so, but it takes two to tango

The Baha’i religion is very young, and the amount of knowledge within its Revelation is immense. Baha’is are still learning about the religion itself and we are also learning how we can effectively present the verities of the Faith to others, especially those who are unfamiliar with teh language subtleties in its Texts.

However, the general principles are very well known and there are plenty of Baha’i scholars around the world with very effective resources available on the internet.

It DOES take two to tango, Eddie, so if we are presenting a confusing picture of the Faith, it is your responsibility to keep pestering us until you get a satisfactory response, and that is OUR responsibility. That way we can learn together

 

[TEPO]

Does the Baha’i religion actually teach that Mohammed was a true messenger of God?

 

[daler]

Oh, come on Red Sox. This old canard? This is absolutely and demonstrably false. There have been schisms and sects in the Baha’i faith since before Baha’u’llah proclaimed himself the successor to the Bab and you know this.

No Wings,

. As to the attempts of personality prompted schisms which have appeared in the early days of the Baha’i Faith, these are like twigs which have been cut off from the Divine Tree. For a brief period, a severed twig will appear to live awhile, yet having disconnected itself from the Source of the Holy Spirit of the Tree of Divine Unity, all of them have withered and died. That a handful of dead leaves persist in holding to a dead twig does not mean they have life.

Nay! It is even as Christ Himself has said regarding them: “Let the dead bury their dead.” Indeed they who have severed themselves from the Tree of Life are devoid of the Spirit and are doomed to extinction. Their attempts to create schism in reality purify the Divine Cause of the presence of egotistical souls, driven by the anti-thesis of the principals of the Faith. This cleansing and purifying process protects the Faith of their pernicious influence which is motivated in its entirety by self and passion, the opposite of self-sacrifice, which is the hallmark of the spirit of Baha.

. “In idle fancy they have found the door that leadeth unto earthly riches, whereas in the manifestation of the Revealer of knowledge they find naught but the call to self-sacrifice. They therefore naturally hold fast unto the former, and flee from the latter.”
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Ian, p. 28)

 

[Servant19]

Does the Baha’i religion actually teach that Mohammed was a true messenger of God?

Absolutely

…and I suspect so will many others, were they to study the Quran effectively.

 

[TEPO]

Did Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings actually require a one world government ran by the UN?

 

[TEPO]

Absolutely

…and I suspect so will many others, were they to study the Quran effectively.

But according to history, Mohammed murdered people who didn’t convert. Is this also a teaching in the Baha’i faith?

Also, I also wonder if Baha’i also consider the writings of the Hadith as “holy” texts.

 

[daler]

Did Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings actually require a one world government ran by the UN?

. He addresses the need for the governments of the world, its Kings and Leaders, Monarchs and Presidents to gather together to solve through an International Tribunal the disagreements between the nations. He did not specify the UN, but it is a natural progression in that direction and a profound improvement of the League of Nations, which failed to gain the support at the time of the United States. Thus failing to gather a broad enough participation was unable to prevent WWII. .
. After this, the UN was born and for all its faults, has prevented numerous wars, organized countless humanitarian projects, facilitated International treaties of great importance, ameliorated many conflicts, served as a vehicle for vital communication networks between the superpowers, Unicef, Unesco, has spotlighted human rights violation worldwide, women and children’s humanitarian rights, etc, etc, etc.

. Clearly, if it indeed evolves into a fuller vision of Baha’u’llah’s calling for a Commonwealth of Nations based upon representative proportions of all peoples of the planet, the facilitation of just and equitable solutions to environmental, financial, and problems will continue to evolve into a more habitable planet for, whether it concerns itself with global warming, ocean over-fishing, radio-active fallout intercontinentally, etc, etc, etc, it can only do much needed good.

. "The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves.

. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …

. The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."

Baha’u’llah

 

[Servant19]

But according to history, Mohammed murdered people who didn’t convert. Is this also a teaching in the Baha’i faith?

Also, I also wonder if Baha’i also consider the writings of the Hadith as “holy” texts.

Hi TEPO, can you provide a reference to a specific verse where Muhammad murdered people? This will enable us to explore what you are referring to together

In the Bahai Faith it is better to be killed than to kill

Baha’is do not consider the Hadith as a reliable and authentic source of Scripture

 

[daler]

But according to history, Mohammed murdered people who didn’t convert. Is this also a teaching in the Baha’i faith?

Also, I also wonder if Baha’i also consider the writings of the Hadith as “holy” texts.

The Baha’i Faith is utterly peaceful and according to the Sacred Text, the Law of Holy War hath been abolished. Bahá’u’lláh’s injunction that “it is better to be killed than to kill”

Upon the death of the Prophet Muhammad, the corruption of the Ummayyads usurped power and destroyed the pure teachings of Muhammad, and became aggressive. All of the battles engaged in during the lifetime of Muhammad were defensive in nature against ruthless and relentless oppressors, men of such a low sort that they would commonly bury their own daughters alive, sometimes their mothers, for not bearing a son to them!!

The Hadiths are to studied in light of reason and relative validity. Some are accurate, many are not. They do not bare the same weight as the Quran.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

we all know that the river jordan is NOT joined to the most great ocean. it is joined to the dead sea.
we all know that mount sinai is not moving much less circling a house. and,

we all know the only burning bush ever heard of existed about three thousand years before bahaullah and the voice from the burning bush spoke to moses and said nothing about bahaullah.

This passage is very striking in my view. Let’s take a look at the symbolism used and what Baha’u’llah implies here. First the passage and then my attempt to understand what is said:

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.

The first sentence makes** four **striking proclamations with each phrase having two parts:

1. (A) The river Jordan is joined to (B) the Most Great Ocean,
2. and** (A) **the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: (B) ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’,
3. whilst (A) Sinai circleth round (B) the House,
4. and** (A) **the Burning Bush calleth aloud: (B) ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’

The Part** (A)** of all four phrases, namely the river Jordan, the Son Jesus Christ, Mount Sinai, and the Burning Bush are all proclaiming the appearance of Baha’u’llah in Part (B) of each phrase.

1. The river Jordan is proclaiming the appearance of Baha’u’llah by calling Baha’u’llah “the Most Great Ocean” (this is one of Baha’u’llah’s Titles) to which it is now joined with His appearance in the 1870’s.
2. The Son Jesus Christ is crying out to Baha’u’llah with the words “Here am I, Here am I O Lord, my God!”, the same cry that Jesus Christ utters to His Father.
3. Mount Sinai is circling around Baha’u’llah “the House”, as the Souls of all Manifestations are said to circumambulate around the House of Baha’u’llah. Also recall that it was the appearance of Baha’u’llah to Mount Sinai that made the mountains to tremble and crumble during the time of Moses.
4. The Burning Bush is calling out to Baha’u’llah as “He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty”, since it was through the Burning Bush that Baha’u’llah spoke to Moses thousands of years ago (Exodus 19).

Then Baha’u’llah proclaims that He is the Father by stating:

“Say, Lo!** The Father is come**, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

 

[Servant19]

This passage is very striking in my view. Let’s take a look at the symbolism used and what Baha’u’llah implies here. First the passage and then my attempt to understand what is said:

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.

The first sentence makes** four **striking proclamations with each phrase having two parts:

1. (A) The river Jordan is joined to (B) the Most Great Ocean,
2. and** (A) **the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: (B) ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’,
3. whilst (A) Sinai circleth round (B) the House,
4. and** (A) **the Burning Bush calleth aloud: (B) ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’

The Part** (A)** of all four phrases, namely the river Jordan, the Son Jesus Christ, Mount Sinai, and the Burning Bush are all proclaiming the appearance of Baha’u’llah in Part (B) of each phrase.

1. The river Jordan is proclaiming the appearance of Baha’u’llah by calling Baha’u’llah “the Most Great Ocean” (this is one of Baha’u’llah’s Titles) to which it is now joined with His appearance in the 1870’s.
2. The Son Jesus Christ is crying out to Baha’u’llah with the words “Here am I, Here am I O Lord, my God!”, the same cry that Jesus Christ utters to His Father.
3. Mount Sinai is circling around Baha’u’llah “the House”, as the Souls of all Manifestations are said to circumambulate around the House of Baha’u’llah. Also recall that it was the appearance of Baha’u’llah to Mount Sinai that made the mountains to tremble and crumble during the time of Moses.
4. The Burning Bush is calling out to Baha’u’llah as “He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty”, since it was through the Burning Bush that Baha’u’llah spoke to Moses thousands of years ago (Exodus 19).

Then Baha’u’llah proclaims that He is the Father by stating:

“Say, Lo!** The Father is come**, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

It’s impossible for me to fathom how a mere man can produce such depth and richness of meaning in one paragraph.

It’s simply, for me, on another level. It IS the new heaven.

Only God can cause the limbs of mankind to shake, and in this paragraph He does…

 

[Red_Sox_1]

It’s impossible for me to fathom how a mere man can produce such depth and richness of meaning in one paragraph.

It’s simply, for me, on another level. It IS the new heaven.

Only God can cause the limbs of mankind to shake, and in this paragraph He does…

O Baha! What hast Thou done?!

One night while traveling by carriage to visit the inventor, Alexander Graham Bell (1847-1922), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá suddenly cried aloud:

‘O Bahá’u’lláh! What hast Thou done? O Bahá’u’lláh! May my life be sacrificed for Thee! O Bahá’u’lláh! May my soul be offered up for Thy sake! How full were Thy days with trials and tribulations! How severe the ordeals Thou didst endure! How solid the foundation Thou hast finally laid, and how glorious the banner Thou didst hoist!’

 

[NoWings]

Hi NoWings,

There are no sects of the Baha’i Faith. There is a CLEARLY defined Covenant in the Baha’i Writings which outlines EXACTLY who is the Head of the Baha’i Faith and who is clearly not. If people wish to claim for themselves leadership and violate this clear covenant between Baha’u’llah and His lovers in the human race, they are free to do so, but this does not indicate a schism, purely because of the clarity by which the Covenant has been made.

The breaking of the Covenant by several individuals throughout history does not mean that there are now several sects of the Baha’i Faith. They were simply excommunicated for valid reasons of wishing to impart leadership roles for themselves which were clearly against the written Word.

Really? If I remember correctly, the Covenant also said that the UHJ is to function alongside the Guardianship. Unfortunately, Shoghi Effendi ended up excommunicating every other relative of Baha’u’llah and didn’t leave a successor at all, so the entire structure of the Covenant is flawed from the beginning.

As for saying there are no sects, you can say this until you’re blue in the face but that doesn’t make it true. Saying that there are no Baha’i sects would be like the Catholic church saying there have been no sects formed from Holy Mother Church with the Persian schism, non-Chalcedonian schism, the Great Schism, and the Reformation happening right under their noses.

Here’s a website that shows division after division since before the Bab proclaimed himself the Gate:

Sects of Baha’is

Maybe the information is true, maybe it isn’t. But it’s information that can lead to an investigation of truth. Try and post something like this on any Baha’i message board and you’ll get moderated and/or banned because you’re “trying to lead people astray,” though Baha’is will insist on the “independent investigation of truth” at the exact same time.

I even posted about the site for the Bayani religion, Subh-i-Azal’s sect, on Planet Baha’i because I feel that doing so is part of the independent investigation of truth. Of course, I was told that this was not allowed.

The Bab fought with other claimants, Baha’u’llah fought with his brother, Abdul-Baha fought with his brother, and Shoghi Effendi fought with and excommunicated every other living relative of Baha’u’llah to the point that the great Guardianship that was supposed to last through the ages had one person occupy it and then it became a dead line.

The Religion of Bayan

There are situations where administrative rights are removed from individuals who may break Baha’i law in the face of gentle counsel and repeated exhortation. These individuals are not excommunicated but have lessened administartive rights. They are still considered Baha’is and Baha’is are free to engage with them. They will have their administrative rights restored once their houses are back in line with Baha’i Teaching again.

Hope that helps

Why don’t you tell that to Sen? From what I read on his blog, he has sent at least three correspondences to the UHJ and/or his NSA and has never gotten a reply back as to what he needs to do get re-enrolled. They gave him no due process, he had no right to confront his accusers, and he’s not even sure what exactly prompted their decision in the first place.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Dear Nowings, this kind of discussion is really getting us off track.

It is clear from Baha’u’llah’s cries and despair and complaints that the people turned aside from Him notwithstanding His sovereignty.