Baker denies a "wedding cake" to a same sex couple

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TheRealJuliane said:
Heard yesterday that although federal law does not include protection of sexual orientation, Iowa state law does, so she may have broken her state’s laws by refusing to bake the cake. There was a photography business somewhere (Washington? Oregon?) who refused service to a gay wedding and did get sued. I suspect these cases, when taken to court, are also used by the militant gay/lesbian community to intimidate other businesses into serving them (“See what happens when you refuse us service? Better just to ‘tolerate’ our perversion than to be sued…”).
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The thing is she didn’t refuse them service because of their orientation, she refused them service because it would contribute to a ceremony that is against her religion. Such ceremonies are not personal attributes or rights.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Heard yesterday that although federal law does not include protection of sexual orientation, Iowa state law does, so she may have broken her state’s laws by refusing to bake the cake. There was a photography business somewhere (Washington? Oregon?) who refused service to a gay wedding and did get sued. I suspect these cases, when taken to court, are also used by the militant gay/lesbian community to intimidate other businesses into serving them (“See what happens when you refuse us service? Better just to ‘tolerate’ our perversion than to be sued…”).

**The gay community is usually very big on sticking to their own kind…“Keep your money in the community” sort of thing - you’d think there would be a gay bakery who would be happy to do this job. ** Agree - and wonder if, at times, gays are looking for confrontaions when they go to non-gay providers. If the baker agreed and the cake was wonderful, she’d have gotten referrals and then she’d have more and more gay customers. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
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ivebeenshown said:
The thing is she didn’t refuse them service because of their orientation, she refused them service because it would contribute to a ceremony that is against her religion. Such ceremonies are not personal attributes or rights.
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Very fine line; thanks for defining it so well.
 
catharina said:
Who said it did?
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A lot of people have been alluding to the fact that having sold that cake would be supporting the marriage. If you have not seen this, perhaps you should go a few pages back and start reading all the threads from there?
 
ivebeenshown said:
I don’t like the tone of your post. You probably have a better chance of changing someone’s mind when you avoid using sarcasm.
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I’m not being sarcastic. You have an opportunity to do what you say the baker should do. Is it easier to tell someone to violate their conscience or to become a baker and cater to same-sex “marriages”?

But, I’ll play your game. What chance, honestly, do I have of changing your mind about this?

Peace

Tim
 
Orogeny said:
I’m not being sarcastic. You have an opportunity to do what you say the baker should do. Is it easier to tell someone to violate their conscience or to become a baker and cater to same-sex “marriages”?

But, I’ll play your game. What chance, honestly, do I have of changing your mind about this?
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It’s actually already changed. But your post did come across as very sarcastic. I hope you would at least see how I interpreted it that way. It’s off-putting. And I’m not here to play games, and I am confused, wondering why you would assume that of me.
 
DaddyGirl said:
This moral relativism thing seems to support what I said.
If she’s going to turn away one couple for a specific “sin”…then she should be turning away dozens more for their sins, too. Is she just going to pick one specific sin that she can’t bake a cake for, and say the rest are okay? Just because they are not immediately apparent to her?
But I guess if she refused all sinners, she’d be out of business.

Let them eat cake!!!
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Yes, we are all sinners. How many of us go to a bakery to order a cake specifically to celebrate our sinfulness?

Peace

Tim
 
Debora123 said:
Right, and what some of us are saying is that WE wouldn’t do that same. This doesn’t translate to “we support gay marriages.”
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Again, who said it did?

Check it yourself.
I’m not searching for your unsupported conclusion.
Why would I?
It’s YOUR conclusion.
 
Orogeny said:
I’m not being sarcastic. You have an opportunity to do what you say the baker should do. Is it easier to tell someone to violate their conscience or to become a baker and cater to same-sex “marriages”?

But, I’ll play your game. What chance, honestly, do I have of changing your mind about this?

Peace

Tim
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Actually, Tim, you likely had a lot to do with changing his mind.
Your reasoning has been superb. He dislikes your “tone” - why I don’t know;
maybe the it’s the common fault of on-line attempts at communication.
I liked your tone just fine and am glad to see you back on this thread.
 
ivebeenshown said:
The thing is she didn’t refuse them service because of their orientation, she refused them service because it would contribute to a ceremony that is against her religion. Such ceremonies are not personal attributes or rights.
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But gay marriage is legal in Iowa. It’s a grey area, and last I heard, the couple is not sure they will sue her. They admitted that she was very gracious and nice in telling them she could not make their cake. Not sure if they have legal rights here, or what their suit would accomplish other than destroying a business.
 
Leegal said:
But once I put myself out there as a baker who sells to the public, I have secular authority that rules too and must be willing to accept the consequences when I refuse to serve one person (or class of individuals) for a discriminatory reason.
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That is a different discussion because, as far as I am concerned, one should never act against their conscience regardless if there is some secular penalty to be paid.

I also think that this illustrates a problem with the law. I don’t believe that anyone should be forced to provide any service to anyone that they don’t want to serve. If I went to a realtor and they refused to help me because I am a white male or because I am heterosexual or because I am Catholic, so be it. I will find someone who will. The only thing that should be exempt from that would be vital services like emergency medical care. I understand that that will never happen and there are many here who will probably consider me a bigot for having that position, but so be it.

Peace

Tim
 
I hope to get to some individual responses later if the thread hasn’t gotten too far away. For those of you saying it is discrimination to not bake the cake, ask yourselves the following: The Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter comes in, and wants a cake for the commemoration of some bombings from the sixties, and the establishment of a new chapter in the county, complete with decorative burning cross atop it. Are you seriously telling me it is discrimination to say get out? Does the baker need a sign saying that she won’t serve racists? How about the local Nazi party wants a cake to commemorate Kristallnacht? Halliburton representative celebrating new contract (or whatever other ideological or political bugaboo you find compelling)?

I think you are fooling yourselves if you say you would make such a cake.
 
Leegal said:
It’s not moral relativism. It a conflict of conscience with man’s law which prohibits discrimination in public access to business.
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Nope. This is a Catholic forum, not a legal forum. The baker made a decision based on her conscience.

The moral relativism I referred to is to the posters on this thread, not the baker.

Peace

Tim
 
TheRealJuliane said:
But gay marriage is legal in Iowa. It’s a grey area, and last I heard, the couple is not sure they will sue her. They admitted that she was very gracious and nice in telling them she could not make their cake. Not sure if they have legal rights here, or what their suit would accomplish other than destroying a business.
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In Iowa sexual orientation and gender identity is a protected characteristic. If the couple does decide to sue I can’t imagine things going very well for the business owner.

state.ia.us/government/crc/file_complaint/areas.html
 
DaddyGirl said:
My point is that…if she’s going to not bake the cake because a potential customer is doing something that is against her religion…then she should commit to that MO fully, and make sure her other customers are not doing gigantic infractions against her religion as well.

One poster brought up the fact that this specific case would be more scandalous because it would be more “out in the open” and appear that she is supporting gay marriage. That feels hypocritical to me.

If she knew another hetero couple were having sex before their wedding, that would be against her religion, too. Or had had an abortion. Or all the other examples we have given.
But she would still bake the cake maybe…because no one else would be aware that she was baking a cake for someone who was doing “wrong”?

She shouldn’t be doing something because she’s worried what others would think, if that’s the case. If she’s not baking the cake because she feels morally wrong about it…then she should also feel morally wrong about other things another couple might be doing, too…not just in this instance. Else she’s picking and choosing.

I think…I’m gonna find this woman and email her and ask her all these questions for us.
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No, your logic is flawed. If the couple came to her and said, “We just had an abortion, and we want you to make a cake for the after-murder party,” THEN it would be an analogous situation. Or, if the shacking-up couple came and said, “We aren’t married and don’t plan to get married, can you bake a cake that says, $*#& Marriage,” that would be a similar situation.

Privacy means she would not know about those conditions, and they would not be asking her to bake a cake to celebrate those sins.
 
catharina said:
Thanks for providing one example.
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Why can’t you have a discussion without reeking of sarcasm on every post directed to those who don’t share your views??? :confused:

I’m trying to be as polite as possible with you…
 
choose_to_love said:
I hope to get to some individual responses later if the thread hasn’t gotten too far away. For those of you saying it is discrimination to not bake the cake, ask yourselves the following: The Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter comes in, and wants a cake for the commemoration of some bombings from the sixties, and the establishment of a new chapter in the county, complete with decorative burning cross atop it. Are you seriously telling me it is discrimination to say get out? Does the baker need a sign saying that she won’t serve racists? How about the local Nazi party wants a cake to commemorate Kristallnacht? Halliburton representative celebrating new contract (or whatever other liberal bugaboo you find compelling)?

I think you are fooling yourselves if you say you would make such a cake.
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:clapping::clapping::clapping:
I hope they’re fooling themselves.
 
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