Balancing the common good

[austenbosten]

Isn’t that the same argument used against restricting or banning abortion?

I think it reasonable to assume that if alcohol is harder to obtain, it will decrease availability. That seems to be the case in Poland, where abortion was freely available and highly used in the Communist era, but is now largely banned. Illegal abortions are still very common, but the estimates of how many are occurring are still below what the numbers were when fully legal.

You think Prohibition was a good idea!

Do you know how many died as a result of bad booze and organized crime?

And NO it’s not the same argument. Doctors by their nature do not go to school for 12 years just to go into crime of performing illegal abortions. Regardless thinking that a law is just going to magically undue the 30 years of pro-choice brainwashing or a life-long addiction to drugs is the most fanciful idea I have ever heard.

However like I said, go force the closing of these shacks…but I ask are you guys going to be around when those reservationists start cooking Meth; and yes it is a very serious problem with the reservations.

I don’t get why so many Catholics want to use Social Justice in an authoritarian and negative way. Instead of a positive and empowering way. I’ll make a deal, I’ll be for the shutting down the shack-stores; only if the reservationists are treated for their alcoholism first.

 

[austenbosten]

how very catholic…and the conditions do not cause the alcoholism ,native americans have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism.and setting these shacks in such close proximity is unconscionable.

That is a theory that does not have a lot of study behind it. I’m not going to buy that argument that Native Americans are genetically different and are pre-disposed to become alcoholics.

And if the conditions don’t cause the alcoholism, then explain the meth problem and the marijuana problem. Have you seen the abysmal living conditions of the reservations?

 

[Dale_M]

I’ll make a deal, I’ll be for the shutting down the shack-stores; only if the reservationists are treated for their alcoholism first.

I think the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation has been desperately trying to do that. It is estimated that as many as 2/3 of the adults are alcoholic.

I agree that treatment is necessary and a good thing. The alcoholism is killing people and destroying lives on a massive scale. Given the poverty of the reservation, and its lack of resources, how do you propose funding this very large rehab program?

I think the funding issue is real and something to be addressed regardless of the action on those Whiteclay shack-stores. But I don’t see why action would have to be delayed until after funding for an expansion of treatment programs is found. That seems a bit like saying “We’ll stop pouring gasoline on the burning house, but only after the fire fighters arrive.”

 

[jeannetherese]

You think Prohibition was a good idea!
.but I ask are you guys going to be around when those reservationists start cooking Meth; and yes it is a very serious problem with the reservations.

Meth is a very serious problem off of reservations as well, including in my own area. Indeed, it is such a problem,that pharmacies now hold certain cold medicines behind the counter and require signatures for release, in an effort to keep large quantities from becoming readily available for the production of meth.
The people I have known who have become addicted to meth, did not take it up when their alcohol was taken away. Some abuse both substances. That such substance abuse/addiction has negative effects which extend beyond the individual becomes readily apparent when young children develop meth mouth.
But even if an addiction only affected the abuser, wouldn’t we have an obligation to reach out to that individual? Limiting access to toxic substances does not preclude seeking ways to help people overcome their desire for such substances.
Alcoholics and those addicted to other substances and their children are children of God and we are all called to be, as best we can, our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers.
One way that we, as a society, act upon this call to take care of each other is by regulating and limiting access to dangerous substances: radiation, meth, lead in paint, asbestos, and alcohol all come to mind.
To me, such intervention is a sign of caring, of being pro-life. It says that others are so precious that we want to support them, to create a refuge that helps them fight their battles.
The two articles linked to in the original post offer a pretty vivid picture of the devastation wrought by addiction on the reservation. It is those suffering from this who are seeking to push alcohol further away from their borders. The border town has a population of roughly 10 people. Can’t we find more productive employment for them that wouldn’t cost quite so many lives?

 

[austenbosten]

I agree that treatment is necessary and a good thing. The alcoholism is killing people and destroying lives on a massive scale. Given the poverty of the reservation, and its lack of resources, how do you propose funding this very large rehab program?

Aww boo hoo it’s going to cost some money, it’s much cheaper to burn down the shack stores and drive these people to harder drugs.

I think the funding issue is real and something to be addressed regardless of the action on those Whiteclay shack-stores. But I don’t see why action would have to be delayed until after funding for an expansion of treatment programs is found. That seems a bit like saying “We’ll stop pouring gasoline on the burning house, but only after the fire fighters arrive.”

Because more often than not, people honestly believe shutting down stores is a magic bullet…so yeah I say wait till the firefighters arrive cause even if you stop the pouring of gas, the fire still rages and more often than not people stop pouring gas and looks around and says “looks good” calls off the FD, despite a raging inferno.

So yeah I want guarantees these people are going to be treated before the stores are shut down, because driving them to harder drugs is only going to make things worse.

Alcoholics and those addicted to other substances and their children are children of God and we are all called to be, as best we can, our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers.
One way that we, as a society, act upon this call to take care of each other is by regulating and limiting access to dangerous substances: radiation, meth, lead in paint, asbestos, and alcohol all come to mind.
To me, such intervention is a sign of caring, of being pro-life. It says that others are so precious that we want to support them, to create a refuge that helps them fight their battles.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

C.S. Lewis

 

[Julia_Mae]

That is a theory that does not have a lot of study behind it. I’m not going to buy that argument that Native Americans are genetically different and are pre-disposed to become alcoholics.

THE GENETICS OF ALCOHOL METABOLISM: ROLE OF ALCOHOL DEHYDROGENASE AND ALDEHYDE DEHYDROGENASE VARIANTS

**ALCOHOL DEHYDROGENASE POLYMORPHISMS IN NATIVE AMERICANS: IDENTIFICATION OF THE ADH2*3 ALLELE **

 

[Julia_Mae]

Originally Posted by Dale_M

But you didn’t answer the question: who pays? They don’t have the money. It’s not like they are using the money for other purposes, there isn’t any. So, where will the money come from?

 

[Bill_7154]

how do you propose funding this very large rehab program?

"

Simple. Take one millionth of a % of the money used to fund the war on drugs and divert it to this and there will probably be ample funds available to fund this (just guessing, have not done the math).

 

[Bill_7154]

Meth is a very serious problem off of reservations as well, including in my own area. Indeed, it is such a problem,that pharmacies now hold certain cold medicines behind the counter and require signatures for release, in an effort to keep large quantities from becoming readily available for the production of meth.
The people I have known who have become addicted to meth, did not take it up when their alcohol was taken away. Some abuse both substances.?

Talk to addicts, or treatment providers of addicts, and you will find that addicts very commonly switch addictions when they stop one. Cigarette smokers switch to being food addicts. Coke addicts switch to being gambling addicts. Alcoholics switch to being cigarette addicts, then to sex addicts, etc, etc. The combonations are seemingly endless. But switching addictions is extremely common, even if one is already addicted to more than one substance and/or behavior.

That such substance abuse/addiction has negative effects which extend beyond the individual becomes readily apparent when young children develop meth mouth.
But even if an addiction only affected the abuser, wouldn’t we have an obligation to reach out to that individual? Limiting access to toxic substances does not preclude seeking ways to help people overcome their desire for such substances.
Alcoholics and those addicted to other substances and their children are children of God and we are all called to be, as best we can, our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers.
One way that we, as a society, act upon this call to take care of each other is by regulating and limiting access to dangerous substances: radiation, meth, lead in paint, asbestos, and alcohol all come to mind.

regulating access is one thing. Prohibiting access is another and gives rise to black markets and all of the ills that come with black markets. And it has been proven to be ineffective. I suggest we do things that are actually effective and not continue to do things that have been proven to be ineffective, especially when it hurts both the individuals addicted as well as society at large.

To me, such intervention is a sign of caring, of being pro-life. It says that others are so precious that we want to support them, to create a refuge that helps them fight their battles.
The two articles linked to in the original post offer a pretty vivid picture of the devastation wrought by addiction on the reservation. It is those suffering from this who are seeking to push alcohol further away from their borders. The border town has a population of roughly 10 people. Can’t we find more productive employment for them that wouldn’t cost quite so many lives?

I’m not sure what ‘intervention’ your talking about. But if your pro life I can’t see how you can support prohibition as murders instantly take over the markets once a substance is prohibited and use violence as one of the main aspects of their business model.

If substances are regulated they can (much moreso than they are now) be kept out of the hands of children. People will stop being murdered, and people will stop robbing and killing in the process of robbing to support the artificially inflated prices of the prohibited substances.

Then we can focus on the substance abuse problem itself. And will have a heck of a lot more money and resources available to do so if prohibition is ended.

If people can quit nicotine they can quit other drugs too. But we don’t imprison people to get them to quit cigarettes, do we? That would be silly. Yet that is what we do with respect to drugs.
How many of you would call the police if you found your child was using drugs as a means to ‘help’ them instead of calling some other resource to help them? That should make it pretty clear that the police don’t help drug addicts anymore than they help cigarette addicts or alcohol addicts or sex addicts or any other type of addict.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Aww boo hoo it’s going to cost some money, it’s much cheaper to burn down the shack stores and drive these people to harder drugs.

Because more often than not, people honestly believe shutting down stores is a magic bullet…so yeah I say wait till the firefighters arrive cause even if you stop the pouring of gas, the fire still rages and more often than not people stop pouring gas and looks around and says “looks good” calls off the FD, despite a raging inferno.

So yeah I want guarantees these people are going to be treated before the stores are shut down, because driving them to harder drugs is only going to make things worse.

As things stand now, don’t certain area’s of Alaska ban alcohol? I’ve seen on TV people smuggling in booze to make a profit. And they make their own home brew as well. Prohibition simply doesn’t work.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[austenbosten]

As things stand now, don’t certain area’s of Alaska ban alcohol? I’ve seen on TV people smuggling in booze to make a profit. And they make their own home brew as well. Prohibition simply doesn’t work.

God Bless,
Bill

What gets me, is if we treat the reservationists the shacks will go out of business, because there will be no addicts to exploit and we can assure that these people won’t drive further out of state for booze or turn to harder drugs.

 

[jeannetherese]

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
C.S. Lewis

I don’t think that this quote applies very well to the situation we are discussing as it is the Native Americans who are requesting intervention. They do not seem to consider such intervention as the imposition of tyranny.

 

[jeannetherese]

I’m not sure what ‘intervention’ your talking about.

God Bless,
Bill

Hi Bill
Thank you for your suggestions. I’m afraid that by shifting from the reservation and alcohol to the meth problem in my area and the way that sequestration of ingredients has been helpful, I have sidetracked our thread into a legalization and treatment vs prohibition as well as treatment discussion.
The intervention I meant was that which is being requested at Pine Ridge by the tribe through its elected representatives. I’m including the two links and some of their content below. Perhaps, together, we can get our thread lined back out again.
May God bless us all. Amen.
nytimes.com/2012/03/06/us/next-to-tribe-with-alcohol-ban-a-hub-of-beer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
"he lawsuit seeks $500 million for costs incurred by the tribe for health care, law enforcement and social services related to chronic drinking, and to limit the amount of beer Whiteclay shops can sell. The legal argument is that the brewers and the stores know that they are selling alcohol to people who have no permissible place to consume it, and who are smuggling it onto the reservation for illegal use and resale.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19795838
he lawsuit alleged that the stores and beer makers had knowingly allowed alcohol sales to residents of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, which has banned alcohol since 1832, fully aware it would be smuggled to drink or resell.

The Oglala also argued that the beer distributors supplied the White Clay, Nebraska stores with “volumes of beer far in excess of an amount that could be sold in compliance with the laws of the state of Nebraska”.