Baltimore Catechism vs. CCC?

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There is something that has been on my mind recently.

I’m currently enrolled in catechism classes in a Tridentine parish, and I’m enjoying it immensely. I’m learning a lot, and the priests and parishioners are wonderful. However, the priest who teaches the class told us something about three weeks ago that has caused me to start thinking. In class, he told us that our catechism book is based on the Baltimore Catechism. He then explained that the Baltimore Catechism is an older Catechism that predates the CCC. He told the class that all parishes in the diocese are supposed to be using the CCC, but this parish rejected it in favor of the Baltimore Catechism because he and his fellow priest thought that the CCC was too vague and confusing. He said that many of the problems in the Church today stem from people misinterpreting the CCC due to the confusing manner in which it is written. He also said that the Compendium isn’t much better. He told us that the bishop summoned him last year because he had found out that this parish was using the Baltimore Catechism and wanted to know why. When my priest explained his reasons for using the BC, the bishop told him to stop using it and start using the CCC instead. My priest told us that they’ve continued to use the BC, unknown to the bishop. He told us that if the bishop were to find out that they still weren’t using the CCC, he would be furious.

The reason I’ve related this is because I’m wondering: is this ok? Is it ok that the priests at my parish are not obeying the bishop’s instruction to stop using the Baltimore Catechism and start using the CCC? My priest said that they don’t like the CCC at this parish, and they didn’t even have a copy in the parish library. Should I be concerned about this, or am I worried about nothing? I just want to make sure that my instruction is being carried out the way the Church wants it to be.

By the way, this is a Roman Catholic parish that is in full communion with the Magisterium.

Thanks to anyone who has any insights about this.
 
Your Priest is guilty of insubordination and if he was in the military and in a time of war he would be shot. Also if he was working for a private company he would be fired. You should find another Parish!
 
I agree with rjcode6. Whilst I do like the Baltimore Catechism and I have seen traditionalists using it (I use it myself!) I also like the CCC.

However, the important point here is that your Priest is being unduly insubordinate to your Bishop.
 
Quackers said:
There is something that has been on my mind recently.

I’m currently enrolled in catechism classes in a Tridentine parish, and I’m enjoying it immensely. I’m learning a lot, and the priests and parishioners are wonderful. However, the priest who teaches the class told us something about three weeks ago that has caused me to start thinking. In class, he told us that our catechism book is based on the Baltimore Catechism. He then explained that the Baltimore Catechism is an older Catechism that predates the CCC. He told the class that all parishes in the diocese are supposed to be using the CCC, but this parish rejected it in favor of the Baltimore Catechism because he and his fellow priest thought that the CCC was too vague and confusing. He said that many of the problems in the Church today stem from people misinterpreting the CCC due to the confusing manner in which it is written. He also said that the Compendium isn’t much better. He told us that the bishop summoned him last year because he had found out that this parish was using the Baltimore Catechism and wanted to know why. When my priest explained his reasons for using the BC, the bishop told him to stop using it and start using the CCC instead. My priest told us that they’ve continued to use the BC, unknown to the bishop. He told us that if the bishop were to find out that they still weren’t using the CCC, he would be furious.

The reason I’ve related this is because I’m wondering: is this ok? Is it ok that the priests at my parish are not obeying the bishop’s instruction to stop using the Baltimore Catechism and start using the CCC? My priest said that they don’t like the CCC at this parish, and they didn’t even have a copy in the parish library. Should I be concerned about this, or am I worried about nothing? I just want to make sure that my instruction is being carried out the way the Church wants it to be.

By the way, this is a Roman Catholic parish that is in full communion with the Magisterium.

Thanks to anyone who has any insights about this.
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Yes, I think you should be very worried, indeed.

This isn’t really a matter of the CCC vs. the Baltimore Catechism. It’s entirely about the disobedience of this parish priest. Which Catechism is better is really not the point. Your priest may be right about which works better for the purpose of teaching at the parish level. But, that is no excuse for disobedience. No, no, no.

You are right to feel uneasy about this.

In my opinion, this sort of thing is very common in “Traditional” parishes. It’s like there’s a spectrum of dissent that starts with just a general dislike of your typical NO Mass, and then progresses to Fatima Warrior pamphlets, on to the SSPX, and then continuing all the way to SSPV. I really do think it’s a slippery slope.

Seek out a reverent Mass, a Tridentine Mass if that’s your preference, but be very sure that there is no dissent. A good priest will obey his bishop, end of story.
 
rjcode6 said:
Your Priest is guilty of insubordination and if he was in the military and in a time of war he would be shot. Also if he was working for a private company he would be fired. You should find another Parish!
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So, if a military officer, in trying to convey information to his troops, disobeyed his superior and used a different manual he would be shot in a time of war? Really? Have you ever been in the military?

And if he was using a different guidebook than the one his boss told him to he would immediately be fired?!

I agree that this Priest is disobeying the Bishop. He will probably be found out. But I can see his underly motivation of wanting to use in his view the best material available for conveying the Faith. And from this you surmise he is a "self-absorbed a**? So you must have met and talked with him and come to this conclusion? His actions are pretty much just the same as a Priest who refuses to teach the Faith at all or abuses children or steals from the collection plate?
 
Good points, Brennan, about what would actually happened. I too work for a disciplined organisation and being fired/disciplined would not necessarily be the outcome.

Still, I think the point is made clear: this Priest should not disobey the direct command of his canonical superior.
 
Thank you to everyone who has responded thus far. I’m going to think about all your responses and pray, and I’ll be back tomorrow evening. God bless! 🙂
 
markadm said:
Good points, Brennan, about what would actually happened. I too work for a disciplined organisation and being fired/disciplined would not necessarily be the outcome.

Still, I think the point is made clear: this Priest should not disobey the direct command of his canonical superior.
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Yes, I agree that the Priest should not directly disobey the Bishop. I suppose that is one of the toughest things about obedience, obeying orders you don’t agree with. After all, as long as the Priest is conveying the Faith, what is the problem with using the BC? And I do think the CCC, whatever one thinks of its substantive merits, might be too long and unwieldy to use in an RCIA class, while the BC might be better simply because it is shorter and more direct.
 
I see what you mean, Brennan, especially about it maybe being unsuitable for RCIA.

However, from a personal standpoint, I find the CCC to be profoundly reflective, if read slowly enough and in the right order. I suppose I really don’t have a problem with it as a Catechism, but maybe rather the current RCIA process. It seems (seems, mind you*) that it is geared towards giving one the facts rather than allowing them to profoundly reflect on faith.
    • I say “seem” because I did not actually go through the RCIA process. Instead I met with a Priest personally and we went through the Catechism in a very organic fashion.
 
with respect to a priest who wants to be sure his candidates and class members are learning the truth, if he considers the CCC to be vague in places and liable to misinterpretation, it would seem his class is the perfect place to address those issues or passages he finds problematic, and using the companion volume to the CCC which gives cites for sources of that document, explain those passages more thoroughly. This would be a better alternative than disobeying the magesterial teaching of the Church.
 
markadm said:
I see what you mean, Brennan, especially about it maybe being unsuitable for RCIA.

However, from a personal standpoint, I find the CCC to be profoundly reflective, if read slowly enough and in the right order. I suppose I really don’t have a problem with it as a Catechism, but maybe rather the current RCIA process. It seems (seems, mind you*) that it is geared towards giving one the facts rather than allowing them to profoundly reflect on faith.
    • I say “seem” because I did not actually go through the RCIA process. Instead I met with a Priest personally and we went through the Catechism in a very organic fashion.
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Yes, I think the CCC can be read with benefit as you described. I did go through RCIA a couple of times, once as a convert and another as a sponsor. I made a point of checking around for a good teacher so I would really be learning the faith. Every class used the CCC. I don’t have too much of a problem with it, but in a class of ten or more students it almost was used as material to assign outside class and the class itself rose or fell on how good the teacher was, not necessarily on the CCC. And I have my doubts about how many students actually read the assigned readings. That’s why I think the BC might be better for a class.
 
I’d opt for the Baltimore Catechism any day of the year. It’s such a wonderfully concise explanation of the Catholic faith, and is a product of a time when you could go to any parish in America and hear the same message.
 
Seamus, that’s not the issue is it, though? For pedagogical reasons I too might opt for the BC; or if someone required a slow maturation and ‘mashing’ of faith then CCC might be better. But nevertheless, the Priest has been told to cease something by his Ordinary and he hasnot… 😊
 
I see two problems. One obedience to the Bishop, and secondly a disregard for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I doubt if the Bishop would have a problem with a parish using the Catechism as the primary authoritative text and supplimenting it with the Baltimore Catechism. The two Catechisms are not contradictory. The Baltimore is great for commiting to memory. The CCC expounds and explains. This pastor seems to be trying to instill a disregard to the Catechism of the Catholic Church into it’s new converts. Not a good thing.

I actually had a problem with a very liberal Pastor not wanting to use the CCC because it was too confining for his ideas, and he would never have considered the Baltimore Catechism. He found a comic book like version for his RCIA, that said almost nothing and offended no one. The texts used shouldn’t be up to the individual parishes to do their own things. We have a Catechism of the Catholic Church for a reason.
 
If he thinks that CCC is unclear then he should use it and explain it in the right context, especially since this is the Catechism his parishioners will most likely come in contact with later on in their life. I’m sure the Bishop wouldn’t mind if he used BC as an aid along with CCC . I don’t think Bishop is not requiring his to never use any other material produced by the Church.
 
Since the faith doesn’t contradict itself both Catechisms both teach the faith. The Baltimore catechism is more concise and better suited to teach the faith, but the new CCC is much larger and is better suited for reflection\discussion. This can be very bad in a setting where the person teaching RCIA is not 100% faithful to the Magisterium, and this is what the Pastor probably has seen as a problem

I see no problem if he is involved in the RCIA process as it seems he is very concerned about preserving the Holy Faith. This is more important than obeying the Bishop, if the Bishop is teaching against the faith, but it seems that the Bishop is just showing a preference for the newer Catechism. Your pastor should respect that and just supplement the ambiguities of the text with the Baltimore Catechism, since the faith is the same.

I would suggest to your pastor, as a solution, to use both Catechisms, The newer one for discussion and the older one to resolve any questions or supposed conflicts. Talk with him and see what he thinks.

Your pastor should respect the Bishops wishes, and the Bishop is not endorsing anything bad.(as opposed to my Bishop who my parish still try’s to obey, even if it is questionable)
It is commendable that your pastor is that adament about preserving the Catholic faith, but he should use prudence in his decisions in regards to preserving the faith.
(it is not like the Bishop is inviting an Erie Benedictine nun to talk at the parish to mislead everyone)

We are subject to the Bishop, regardless if he is faithful or unfaithful, we are to be faithful to matters which do not contradict the faith. The CCC does not contradict the faith, and can easily be clarified if there are questions.

In Christ
Scylla
 
I wonder if this bishop would be adverse to the use of the newer Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has the teachings from the CCC in a more concise, question and answer format (although it seems that the priest in question is not concerned entirely with the format, although I’d say a lot of the confusion that he thinks could come of using the CCC could be alleviated by the more concise format).

-ACEGC
 
That is a good idea, to use the newer compendium as it is more concise and less prone to confusion. This could be used in tandem with the Baltimore Catechism. Or all 3 together.

Unfortunately it seems that those who want to destroy the faith and make it their own use confusion and ambiguity to mislead people. This is very common and should be guarded against but just because this is one tactic people use to mislead people faithful Catholics should not be afraid to use newer texts, as long as consistancy is taught with the faith.

God Bless
Scylla
 
The first post did say that the Compendium isn’t any better than the CCC and the Priests would still rather use the Baltimore…
 
The USCC has recently published an Adult Catechism based on the CCC but more user freindy. It has stories of saints and is in a question answer format.
 
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