Baltimore Catechism vs. CCC?

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The Baltimore Catechisms that I have (#2, #3, and #4) have all been updated, and contain Scripture references and also references to the CCC…👍
 
NMJenny said:
The Baltimore Catechisms that I have (#2, #3, and #4) have all been updated, and contain Scripture references and also references to the CCC…👍
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Ooooohh I want some of those. Where ever did you find them?
 
NMJenny said:
The Baltimore Catechisms that I have (#2, #3, and #4) have all been updated, and contain Scripture references and also references to the CCC…👍
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Where did you get that? That sounds like something I might be interested in.
 
You’re quite welcome, Quackers. 👋

Btw, upon checking, I see that Seton does not sell the BC #4–sorry. You can get that one at TAN books, URL tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/49/

The same pages at Seton that have the BC also have some great books by Fr. Laux (I’m reading the Introduction to the Bible right now), and also a history of the Church, although I don’t remember off-hand who wrote that one…
 
NMJenny said:
You’re quite welcome, Quackers. 👋

Btw, upon checking, I see that Seton does not sell the BC #4–sorry. You can get that one at TAN books, URL tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/49/

The same pages at Seton that have the BC also have some great books by Fr. Laux (I’m reading the Introduction to the Bible right now), and also a history of the Church, although I don’t remember off-hand who wrote that one…
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ah, even better. and you can get the whole set for just 32 bucks sweet!
 
NMJenny said:
You’re quite welcome, Quackers. 👋

Btw, upon checking, I see that Seton does not sell the BC #4–sorry. You can get that one at TAN books, URL tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/49/

The same pages at Seton that have the BC also have some great books by Fr. Laux (I’m reading the Introduction to the Bible right now), and also a history of the Church, although I don’t remember off-hand who wrote that one…
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Thank you again. This looks like something that would be useful to me. I’m going to order it with some of my Christmas money. 🙂
 
Two points bother me about the scenario of the OP:

First the blatant disobedience to the Bishop and how it is affirmed to the new converts.

Second, I think that the priest is treating his students as a bunch of idiots that do not have enough brain to read the CCC. If he were serious about his teaching he would use both the CCC and the BC to illustrate things in a simpler manner at times.

A lot of posters seem to treat the BC as “sola scriptura” in term of the Tradition. It is scary that we have to limit ourselves to just one source, we are supposed to develop as Catholics through Faith and Reason. When did reason start to limit us to just one book? I could understand if it were Divinely Inspired but it is not. Finally the CCC is a universal catechism while the BC is not. Do some posters think that the rest of the world has never been properly catechized because of the absence of the BC in other countries. It seem that the number of saints fom other countries would disprove it.

BTW I think that the BC should still be used as a companion for the CCC especially with the younger students.
 
I went through an RCIA class as a sponser and the Nun running the class used a comic book lesson plan. I was told not to bring the CCC to class because it was too confusing. The man I sponsered was on fire and e-mailed me and called me daily with good questions so I was able to help him learn the faith. He’s still into learning about the faith and He and I are taking classes together at our Diocese. I only see one other of his RICA class member’s regularly at Mass and Parish classes. My point is, I feel that, if you teach a watered down or luke warm RICA you will graduate luke warm Catholics.
 
"The principal task entrusted to the Council by Pope John XXIII was to guard and present better the precious deposit of Christian doctrine in order to make it more accessible to the Christian faithful and to all people of goodwill…to strive calmly to show the strength and beauty of the doctrine of the faith.’
In 1986, John Paul II entrusted 12 Cardinals and Bishops, chaired by Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), to prepare the draft of a new cathecism. This task was aided by an editorial staff of 7 diocesan Bishops, experts in theology and catechesis.
The CCC repeats the “old” traditional order already followed by the Cathecism of St. Pius V, arranging the material into 4 parts or pillars (Creed, Sacred Liturgy, Christian way of Life, Christian Prayer) with contents often presented in a “new” way in order to respond to the questions of our age.
“This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechism duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Epicopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.” (John Paul II On the Publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

CCC11…[the CCC] is intended “as a point of reference for the catechism or compendia that are composed in the various countries.”
CCC12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis…It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful."
CCC24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensible adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful.

My parish uses This is Our Faith( Michael Francis Pennock, Ave Maria Press) for both RCIA and high school catechesis. This book follows the CCC. Each chapter ends with a Concluding Reflection, Prayer Reflection, Discussion Questions, plus Further (Scriptural) Reading.
The Faith and Life Series by Ignatius Press is used for Faith Formation.
The parish, as a whole, participates in the Why Catholic? program.
The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults came into my hands when my brother died at the end of November.
 
Have you personally talked to the priest? Perhaps he could teach the CCC and use the Baltimore Catechism for clarifying any perceived ambiguity.
 
DebChris said:
"This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechism duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Epicopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See.
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OP, I believe this line is pertinent to the discussion at hand. “Not intended to replace,” most assuredly means there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Priest using the Baltimore Catechism for RCIA.
 
My parish gives copies of the CCC to all its RCIA students. When I went through, we studied it diligently in class and out. I found it very helpful and still love to read it. That said, the deacon who teaches the class also made excellent use of the Compendium to the CCC, the US Adult Catechism, and the BC when he thought more instruction was needed.

The CCC is NOT intended to replace catechisms like the BC, so the instruction of the faithful should not be limited exclusively to the CCC. However, the priest’s disdain for the CCC and his direct disobedience to the Bishop are more troubling than the question of which catechism is better suited for instruction. The priest may not be teaching heresy, but he’s certainly giving the impression that it’s ok to disobey the magisterium, if you think you’ve got a good reason.😦
 
SemperFidelis said:
OP, I believe this line is pertinent to the discussion at hand. “Not intended to replace,” most assuredly means there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Priest using the Baltimore Catechism for RCIA.
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Thank you for pointing this out, and thank you to DebChris as well. The more I’ve thought and prayed about this, the more I’m coming to think that I am fortunate to have a priest who is so concerned with orthodoxy. I do know that there are several parishes in the diocese that are engaging in unorthodox practices. For example, there is a diocese here that has numerous openly gay and lesbian parishioners who are active, and they serve in their parishes in various capacities. I personally know a gay couple here who are active in their parish. One of them serves as a lector, and they both serve on the parish fundraising commitee and sing in the choir. The priest performed their “marriage” ceremony in the parish sanctuary, and they also stood up during Mass one Sunday morning as the godparents of another parishioner’s child when the baby was baptized. Several people I know have written letters to the bishop with no response. I also know of other things that are going on in the diocese. (I’ve been made aware of these things over the past several days. The gay couple proudly informed me of them, and a couple of other people not so proudly verified what they told me.) My priest has told me that things like these are mainly why he has such disdain for our bishop.

I was wondering for a while if I should report him. Under the circumstances, though, I don’t think that reporting him would be the right thing to do.

I shouldn’t have doubted my priest. I think I will ask him if he will teach us about the CCC, though, since I have a copy now and the other guy in the class has stated he wants to be familiar with it as well. Maybe if we make this clear to him he will incorporate some of the CCC into the class. After all, if he teaches us about the CCC and explains the vague portions to us, we’ll be better equipped to rebut misinterpretations of it when we are confronted with them.
 
Quackers said:
Thank you for pointing this out, and thank you to DebChris as well. The more I’ve thought and prayed about this, the more I’m coming to think that I am fortunate to have a priest who is so concerned with orthodoxy. I do know that there are several parishes in the diocese that are engaging in unorthodox practices. For example, there is a diocese here that has numerous openly gay and lesbian parishioners who are active, and they serve in their parishes in various capacities. I personally know a gay couple here who are active in their parish. One of them serves as a lector, and they both serve on the parish fundraising commitee and sing in the choir. The priest performed their “marriage” ceremony in the parish sanctuary, and they also stood up during Mass one Sunday morning as the godparents of another parishioner’s child when the baby was baptized. Several people I know have written letters to the bishop with no response. I also know of other things that are going on in the diocese. (I’ve been made aware of these things over the past several days. The gay couple proudly informed me of them, and a couple of other people not so proudly verified what they told me.) My priest has told me that things like these are mainly why he has such disdain for our bishop.

I was wondering for a while if I should report him. Under the circumstances, though, I don’t think that reporting him would be the right thing to do.

I shouldn’t have doubted my priest. I think I will ask him if he will teach us about the CCC, though, since I have a copy now and the other guy in the class has stated he wants to be familiar with it as well. Maybe if we make this clear to him he will incorporate some of the CCC into the class. After all, if he teaches us about the CCC and explains the vague portions to us, we’ll be better equipped to rebut misinterpretations of it when we are confronted with them.
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It is sad when the Bishop is more concerned with eliminating the use of the Baltimore Catechism for RCIA purposes, than he is in trying to get rampant heterodox practices in the Diocese fixed. You should feel fortunate that you have a Priest who is not lost, and will unabashedly stick up for what the Church teaches. The Baltimore Catechism is a great tool for catechesis, and I would much rather use it over the CCC. The CCC is a great reference tool, and it has a lot in it, but at times it can be somewhat misleading. Ask your Priest if he would incorporate some of the CCC into RCIA. If he doesn’t, just let it go. You can be assured of the fact that that RCIA class is more than likely the best and most orthodox in the Diocese, and I wouldn’t ruin it or get a bunch of folks upset over something like this. Now if a Priest was using Luther’s catechism to teach the Faith, I would be knocking on the Bishop’s door and wouldn’t mind getting some folks upset, but I wouldn’t worry if he’s using the Baltimore. It’s still orthodox, even after all these years.
 
Tough spot there. I certainly sympathize with you and your pastor.

What I’m not sure I understand is the principle involved in a parish and/or pastor deciding on their own to contravene the local ordinary’s (Bishop) instructions regarding a matter that he has jurisdiction over, especially in his capacity as chief catechist of a diocese.

Do we have an articulable principle? What if the bishop mandated the diocese wide use of the Baltimore Catechism. . . and one parish decided they wanted to use the CCC instead? Would that be allowed, or would that be impermissible because, in our judgment, the Baltimore Catechism is either better, more orthodox, or less prone to misinterpretation than the CCC?

What are my fellow posters thoughts on this? How do we navigate these waters?

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
What are my fellow posters thoughts on this? How do we navigate these waters?
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I think it might be more useful to look at this from another perspective.

The Baltimore happens to be the catechism endorsed by the last plenary council of the USCCB for the instruction of the faithful. Until another plenary council occurs, the Baltimore will remain the local catechism of which we can be sure of both its infallibility and its appropriateness to teach the faithful. The the same cannot be said about the reference recently released by the USCCB, as it does not have the binding weight that a regional plenary council can attach.

Meanwhile, the CCC states directly that it is not intended for direct instruction of the faithful, but for the reference of the instructors (and speaking as a trained educator who also taught confirmation for several years, that is an accurate portrayal of its best use in practice). That qualification is straight from Rome’s mouth, so a bishop mandating use of the CCC in a capacity of direct instruction to the catechumens is dodging both Rome’s recommendation (though not really a binding one) and the last plenary regional council (to which he is bound in obedience), all to achieve an end with no clear benefit and a much greater chance of confusing those in most need of direct answers.
 
Ray,

Thank you. That is a useful consideration.

A few follow up questions:
  1. What do you mean that the Baltimore Catechism is “infallible”?
  2. How are we to understand the local ordinary’s jurisdiction and duty to regulate catechesis in his diocese? Would you say that a bishop must mandate the use of the Baltimore Catechism? Or would you say that he just must allow it as an available option? Either way, doesn’t that seem to impinge on his own jurisdiction?
VC
p.s. Any more posters willing to weigh in?
 
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