Baltimore Catechism

[Richard_Malcolm]

There’s nothing wrong with using older catechisms, since the faith is always the same. The only differences might be certain disciplines which may have changed, or in manner of presentation. For example, when speaking of the Compendium to the CCC, then Cardinal Ratzinger said this about the Catechism of St. Pius X (a catechism similar to the Baltimore that was popular in some places in Europe):

zenit.org/article-7161?l=english

Well said, Genesis.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (editio typica 1997) is, of course, the current “official” catechism of the Church, to the extent that it has one. It’s certainly not the first universal catechism; one thinks of the Catechism of Trent, and the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, referenced by Pope Benedict in that quote you excerpted. And there are local catechisms issued by particular churches - and the Baltimore Catechism is perhaps the best known, not just in the U.S., but probably the rest of the world.

Baltimore was remarkably successful at what it set out to do - to form the young with the basics of faith. The question and answer format was ideal for this, so much so that Pius X used a similar format, and, eventually, the Vatican thought to issue a similar format for the new Catechism, which is what we have in the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some have deprecated that format in recent decades, but I think they too readily misunderstand its pedagogical utility. A student of 8 years may not fully understand what they’re reading or memorizing, but one day, they will. In this way it is an analogue to learning arithmetic or grammar.

Pope Benedict makes clear what should have been clear: You as a Catholic are not obligated to use any particular Catechism. The older catechisms do retain their value, and there is nothing wrong with using them. The Baltimore Catechism makes this even easier with revised editions since the Council. Some Catholic schools still do use the Baltimore Catechism - Mount de Sales high school, in Baltimore (run by the Nashville Dominicans) does so, for example.

For adult converts (or reverts) there is of course the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults alluded to by Oneofthewomen. It may well be that some adults will find this catechism more appealling. But I wouldn’t be ashamed or abashed if you thumb through the Baltimore Catechism (I would try #2 or #3, which are aimed at older students) and find that it works better for you. It was, after all, an enormously successful Catechism for many years, and formed several generations of American Catholics.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

For adult converts (or reverts) there is of course the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults alluded to by Oneofthewomen. It may well be that some adults will find this catechism more appealling. But I wouldn’t be ashamed or abashed if you thumb through the Baltimore Catechism (I would try #2 or #3, which are aimed at older students) and find that it works better for you. It was, after all, an enormously successful Catechism for many years, and formed several generations of American Catholics.

Maybe this should be another thread, but since I want to address the comment in red, I will do it here.

I am not too sure about this.
Reading through these forums, it is apparent that the lack of catechesis, especially among cradle-catholics, is abysmal.

In my diocese, and in my experience in life and in the forums, the people who were “formed” by the BC in the 1940’s-1960’s are the ones who are causing much of the heterodoxy that is rampant in the Church today. Sadly, rubrics are seen as mere suggestions for many of the clergy in my diocese. Lay preaching is prevelent, as well as lay people holding positions of authority in parishes, sometimes even over priests who are no longer “Pastors” but “Sacramental Ministers”. In some parishes it is not unusual to see as many as 12 EMHC for a Mass with 500 people.

Pratically all of the people who have positions of authority in our diocese are part of the “baby-boom” generation, and schooled in what is, mistakenly but all too often nostalgically looked at as the “golden-age American Catholicism” where the BC was supreme.

I am not trying to be snarky, but I really just don’t understand all this talk about the BC being so wonderful. I have looked at the ones used by my relatives in the 1930’s, and 1950’s, and if rote memorization was the goal, then they are fine, but I do not think they should ever be considered the only option.

 

[Richard_Malcolm]

Hello Oneofthewomen,

You raise an excellent point here, actually.

And it’s analogous to the arguments made against the Traditional Latin Mass - if it was so wonderful at instilling orthodoxy, how do we explain the boatloads of Greatest Generation and Baby Boom Generation Catholics who went off the rails at Vatican II and its aftermath, even after being raised exclusively on the old Mass? And who (to the extent that they are still among us) still “are the ones who are causing much of the heterodoxy that is rampant in the Church today”?

What I would say is this: A sound catechism, like a good missal, is perhaps only a necessary, not a sufficient, condition for an orthodox, faithful community.

I don’t have time to analyze what happened in the Church in the 50’s and 60’s. But suffice it to say that we might best look at those Catholics in two cohorts: elites (lay and clerical) and followers.

To the extent that the problem was elites in those years - and I would argue that most of what happened was an elite phenomenon, as the reforms were, at least initially, imposed mostly from above - what was happening was a combination of seeping modern scholarship mehtods and epistemologies (especially the historical critical school), and envy of the Protestant, secular elite world around them, both in academia and the wider society. And that was especially true in the two countries that arguably had the biggest impact on the Council and its aftermath, Germany and the United States. So many craved acceptance by that world, on which they seemed to be outsiders, and so pervasive was that world’s power and reach, that not even good catechisms and good missals could always counteract it, certainly not for the most proud. Especially when, as one theology professor of mine once put it, too much of the Catholic theology being done at that time (which was, after all, almost entirely in universities, not monasteries), was not “theology done on your knees.”

But followers were vulnerable to many of the same temptations as well. Families who simply left inculcation of the faith to St. Mary’s School For Girls without living it as a family were especially vulnerable to the tidal wave of mass popular culture and heterodox theologies. So many were “cultural Catholics.” A lot of that happened in my own Italian immigrant family in those years.

But entrance into and growth in the faith always starts with sound teaching. And the Baltimore Catechism was an outstanding tool to that end. But like any tool, it won’t serve its proper ends if it is misused, or barely used at all.

Which brings me to:

I am not trying to be snarky, but I really just don’t understand all this talk about the BC being so wonderful. I have looked at the ones used by my relatives in the 1930’s, and 1950’s, and if rote memorization was the goal, then they are fine, but I do not think they should ever be considered the only option.

Again, another great point: If only rote memorization is your objective, the Baltimore Catechism is not going to ensure a good Catholic life or a good Catholic death - and neither will the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or even YouCat. But memorization is only a pedagogical tool, a tool to be used when the task for it is at hand. If it isn’t a building block in a deepening faith life as one grows older - and has a chance to start connecting the dots that the BC lays out - it will merely end up like an old arithmetic primer, collecting dust.

So the BC is like any Catechism in this regard: a means to a greater end. By themselves, none is a magic bullet for a vibrant faith life. But they are essential steps to that end.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

So the BC is like any Catechism in this regard: a means to a greater end. By themselves, none is a magic bullet for a vibrant faith life. But they are essential steps to that end.

Richard,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.
I was worried that my post was going to get be clobbered! :blackeye:

I agree with everything you wrote, especially what I have quoted here!

Peace be with you!!

 

[Richard_Malcolm]

Hello Oneofthewomen,

Glad to be of help.

I charge extra for clobbering…

 

[poche]

They are both good. The Catechism of the Catholic church is general because it is universal. The Baltimore Catechism was maybe written for an earlier time, but it is still valid and the two catechisms complement each other.

 

[CopticChristian]

Was it replaced by the current Catechism of the Catholic Church? I’ve just recently came in contact with one and I find it to explain things more clearly than the CCC. What’s your opinion on this book?

LINVS,

The faithful offer aid and insights as well as preference and opinion that is well and good. I suggest you review this site for a history of Catechesis in the Catholic Church. The notion that the Baltimore Catechism was for adults or children will be discussed here as well as the reality that the Universal Catechism has a purpose that spawned the USA Catechism for Adults. I have the Audio Version and have been trough it well over 10 times. I have in the past accessed all Catechisms and I find that this USA Catechism provides a cohesive understanding for all, Faithful and those that are just looking to see what the Church teaches. It incoroporates stories of Saints relevant to the USA that encourage and enlighten.

ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/NCOFCC.HTM

Although it was often presented in books that lacked illustrations and were dry-both in the graphic presentation of the material and in the way it was presented-the Baltimore Catechism should not be faulted since it also had many advantages, and it certainly formed and trained many generations of Catholics in our country in a correct knowledge of our holy religion.

Many people used the occasion of the Second Vatican Council to spread abroad a whole series of ideas, some of which were far removed from the Council and far removed from the Catholic Faith itself. Alarmed by these developments, our present Holy Father summoned the Bishops of the world through the International Synod of Bishops, to gather in Rome and consider the entire matter of catechetics. Following that session of the International Synod of Bishops,** the Pope issued a document called Catechesis Tradendae, which summarized, synthesized and presented very dearly what the bishops and the Holy Father agreed upon, as necessary structures in regard to catechetics.**
The new Catechism of the Catholic Church should be read and understood in the light of its history, especially Catechesis Tradendae and the General Catechetical Directory.

This does not mean that the new catechism is not and should not be accessible to all the faithful. As a matter of fact, I would urge all to go to your Catholic bookstore and procure a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, to read it carefully, to study it, and let it be along with Sacred Scripture itself, a great source of nourishment for your Catholic beliefs, establishing and helping you to intellectualize and conceptualize on a more secure basis what the Lord reveals and teaches us in and through His Catholic Church. It is not an exclusive book for bishops, priests, and catechists, although they are the focus of the publication.

There is no doubt that the Church intends the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be the criterion against which local catechisms must be judged and understood.

The new Catechism not only unites us who are Catholics at the present time, but unites us with all those Catholics who have gone before us. Stretching back in our historic continuity the Catechism puts us in touch with the integral and complete Catholic Faith as it was given to the apostles as they have conserved and preserved it through the centuries, and as they have passed it on to us.

The second principle that guides the Catechism of the Catholic Church is what the Second Vatican Council calls the “hierarchy of truth.” This does not mean there is some kind of principle of subtraction, namely, that there are some essentials in the Faith and the rest is left to free discussion or can be dismissed as not significant. What the hierarchy of truth means is that there is a principle of organic structure in the intellectual formulation of our faith. The mystery of the Blessed Trinity and the central place of Christ as well as the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments, and Prayer are the way in which the Catechism forms a common structure

Study Catechesis, the Baltimore Catechism is part of it, however heed the Call of the Holy Father and Rome to complete and complement your Catechesis by obtaining and studying the Adult Catechism of the USA, I suggest the Audio version, that costs about $42.00.

Keep learning…

 

[jwinch2]

There is nothing wrong with using the Baltimore Catechism if that is what you prefer. It contains all dogmas of the Faith and has been validly approved. In Fidei Depositum it specifically states in reference to the CCC:

This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See.

The US Catechism for Adults is very good for the most part, and in fact, I used to recommend it strongly. However, I do have some concerns in the manner in which it presents, or does not present aspects of Catholic Social Doctrine. In particular, you will find virtually no discussion of the doctrine of Subsidiarity, though it is a major part of the Church’s social teaching in the CCC as well as the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church. This is a glaring omission, and one that should not have happened.

The CCC is of course, very good, but can be confusing at times as the primary readership was the Bishops and theologians, not the average lay person. Because of the intended audience and the fact that many of its passages are ambiguous or open to misinterpretation, I would suggest the Compendium eluded to above by OraLabora. It is much more clear. Regarding the CCC, the preface says:

III. The Aim and Intended Readership of the Catechism

12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God.

Of course, the faithful have also been encourage to read the CCC, I would never deny that. However, that does not change the fact that the faithful were not the intended audience, but rather the Bishops.

My all time favorite catechism is the one by Fr. John Hardon. It is faithful, clearly written, perfectly orthodox, and has the stated goal of presenting the documents of Vatican II within the context of the Tradition of the Church. Analyzing the council in this way, is of course exactly what Pope Benedict XVI is asking us to do now. Fr. Hardon was way ahead of his time in that regard. He also has a question and answer formatted catechism for those who prefer that approach. Because of the fact that he incorporates Vatican II and goes way beyond memorization and wrote learning, I find it to be a better choice than the Baltimore Catechism. Because of the clarity of writing and its intended audience, I find it to be a good alternative to the CCC. And finally, because of its completeness, I find it to be a better choice than the US Catechism for Adults. Some may disagree, but I am firmly convinced on the issue.

amazon.com/The-Catholic-Catechism-Contemporary-Teachings/dp/038508045X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359042759&sr=8-1&keywords=hardon+catechism
amazon.com/The-Question-Answer-Catholic-Catechism/dp/0385136641/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_6
amazon.com/Treasury-Catholic-Wisdom-John-Hardon/dp/0898705398/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359042835&sr=1-1

Peace of Christ,

 

[CopticChristian]

There is nothing wrong with using the Baltimore Catechism if that is what you prefer. It contains all dogmas of the Faith and has been validly approved. In Fidei Depositum it specifically states in reference to the CCC:

The US Catechism for Adults is very good for the most part, and in fact, I used to recommend it strongly. However, I do have some concerns in the manner in which it presents, or does not present aspects of Catholic Social Doctrine. In particular, you will find virtually no discussion of the doctrine of Subsidiarity, though it is a major part of the Church’s social teaching in the CCC as well as the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church. This is a glaring omission, and one that should not have happened.

The CCC is of course, very good, but can be confusing at times as the primary readership was the Bishops and theologians, not the average lay person.

My all time favorite catechism is the one by Fr. John Hardon. It is faithful, clearly written, perfectly orthodox, and has the stated goal of presenting the documents of Vatican II within the context of the Tradition of the Church. Analyzing the council in this way, is of course exactly what Pope Benedict XVI is asking us to do now. Fr. Hardon was way ahead of his time in that regard. He also has a question and answer formatted catechism for those who prefer that approach. Because of the fact that he incorporates Vatican II, I find it to be a better choice than the Baltimore Catechism. Because of the clarity of writing and its intended audience, I find it to be a good alternative to the CCC. And finally, because of its completeness, I find it to be a better choice than the US Catechism for Adults. Some may disagree, but I am firmly convinced on the issue.

amazon.com/The-Catholic-Catechism-Contemporary-Teachings/dp/038508045X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359042759&sr=8-1&keywords=hardon+catechism
amazon.com/The-Question-Answer-Catholic-Catechism/dp/0385136641/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_6
amazon.com/Treasury-Catholic-Wisdom-John-Hardon/dp/0898705398/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359042835&sr=1-1

Peace of Christ,

J,

I am amazed at the resistance to incorporating a Catechism introduced by the Bishops of the USA. The CCC universal is a template for the USA Catechism for adults. Bishop Carrol and the Bishops of the United States provided the Baltimore Catechism. The Bishops of the United States produced the USA Catechism for adults. The Bishops would not have wasted their time, or suggested it be read if they believed and thought that the Baltimore Catechism was enough.

Your statement concerning the CCC does not in my opinion apply to the USA Catechism for adults as it lacks all the stories, etc and is a template for other Catechisms.

The BC has value, it has defeciencies, and that is why the USA catechism was produced. In the end all Catechesis is deficient absent the effort of the Catechumen. Is the defeciency that of the Church, that produced the Catechism or the Catechumen?

It is no wonder that so many have not seen what the USA Catechism for Adults has to offer as there appears to be a resistance to change and a call to view it.

All of your recommendations are good. There is one thing lacking. I went looking for an Audio version of the Catechism and found that only the USA Catechism for Adults is available in Audio.

We as humans learn by seeing and hearing. You won’t deny that Oral Tradition is part of the Apostolic Tradition. In the USA Catechism for adults it is explained that Catechesis comes from the word…to Echo…in other words Catechesis came by hearing and repeating or echoing what was learned.

I learn best by hearing and for those that want to learn by hearing, those that want to be faithful to an Oral Tradition, those that want to be faithful to the concept of Catechesis, ie to echo…they must hear…and the only way to hear the deposit of Faith is in

The USA Catechism for Adults USA…and then complement that Catechesis as you say with all other resources…

Are you in favor of hearing the word preached and learning by hearing?

 

[jwinch2]

J,

I am amazed at the resistance to incorporating a Catechism introduced by the Bishops of the USA. The CCC universal is a template for the USA Catechism for adults. Bishop Carrol and the Bishops of the United States provided the Baltimore Catechism. The Bishops of the United States produced the USA Catechism for adults. The Bishops would not have wasted their time, or suggested it be read if they believed and thought that the Baltimore Catechism was enough.

The BC has value, it has defeciencies, and that is why the USA catechism was produced. In the end all Catechesis is deficient absent the effort of the Catechumen. Is the defeciency that of the Church, that produced the Catechism or the Catechumen?

It is no wonder that so many have not seen what the USA Catechism for Adults has to offer as there appears to be a resistance to change and a call to view it.

First of all, please read my post more carefully. I suggested that I felt that the Baltimore Catechism was probably deficient in some areas since it focused on memorization rather than true learning, and did not include Vatican II, which is important. However, it is false to suggest that people cannot use it in good conscience when the Church specifically state otherwise.

Secondly, I’ve read the US Catechism for Adults multiple times, as well as several others, so please do not suggest that I have not seen it. Unfortunately, even though it was developed from the CCC, the US Catechisms does not always do the best job of conveying the intent of the authors of the CCC on certain issues. Here is an example of this offered by another member here on CAF a while back which explains the issues with the US Catechism a little better:

"CCC 1883 states:1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and
initiative. the teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co-ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

You will need to look very carefully to see the difference. You will note that CCC 1883 talks about “in case of need” – not mentioned in the USCCB Catechism. Also, note that the CCC talks about “a community of a higher order…” while the USCCB Catechism talks about “governments”. We know that communities of higher order can talk about the immediate family, the extended family, the neighborhood, the town, the parish, the diocese, and so on…“communities of higher order” are not limited to governments. Yet, if you teach catechism based solely upon the USCCB document, you would not recognize that.

In addition, there is also the troubling inclusion of information from a document from the USCCB which never received unanimous consent from the USCCB or a Recognito from the Holy See. This was also presented here on CAF in the past, by another member.

Next, on page 421ff, there is a presentation talking about the Reflections of the Catholic Bishops of the United States on the Church’s Social Teaching: Major Themes.

This portion is a condensation of the USCCB “Pastoral Letter” Economic Justice for All. Economic Justice for All was written by Robert Weakland in 1986. To my knowledge, it did not receive unanimous consent by the US bishops nor did it receive a Recognito from the Holy See (ref CIC Can 455 and Motu Proprio Apostolos Suos). In other words, it is not Magisterial, but it is in the USCCB Catechism which gives the impression that it is authoritative, and this is a problem, a major problem.

I myself used to strongly recommend the US Catechism, as can be seen here on CAF multiple times. However, after digging deeper and listening to those who did some excellent research on the subject, I came to realize that there are better options out there. You can disagree if you like, that is fine with me. However, people who prefer other catechisms are perfectly within their rights to recommend them. As noted above, the Church never intended for the CCC to replace catechisms which were already in existence as long as they had been approved, this can be seen in Blessed John Paul II’s writings on the topic. However, as I noted also above, I do suggest using a catechism which came out after Vatican II such as the one written by Fr. Hardon since it helps us to understand how the council exists within the life of the Church today, while the Baltimore Catechism does not.

 

[Porknpie]

Similar to Coptic, I have been reading and promoting the US Catechism for Adults Audiobook. For me, the audiobook is a great way to occupy my time while commuting to and from work. By definition it is not compendius and I don’t have an issue with that as I am still going through the Universal Catechism, both in a men’s bible study (just starting) and with the Catechism in a Year guide referenced in my signature.

The US Bishops website says this about the US Catechism for Adults:

The presence of the Catholic Church in the United States reaches back to the founding days of our country through the leadership of Archbishop John Carroll, the first Catholic bishop in the United States. His story, like other stories at the start of the chapters in the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults, gives us a glimpse into the lives of Catholics who lived out their faith throughout our country’s history. Each chapter in the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults includes stories, doctrine, reflections, quotations, discussion questions, and prayers to lead the reader to a deepening faith. The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults is an excellent resource for preparation of catechumens in the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults and for ongoing catechesis of adults.

The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults is an aid and a guide for individuals and small groups to deepen their faith. The catechism and free supplemental resources are available at our bookstore. Videos about the catechism are also available for use at no charge.

Per the words above in bold, I agree that it is an aid and guide… a complement to the Universal Catechism. I also like the stories and reflections that are part of the audiobook. It has 20 hours on CD for about $40. $2 per hour. That’s the deal of the year and unlike going to a Movie Theatre (20 hours = 10 movies times $9/each = $90 + $75 worth of pop and popcorn), it can be listened to multiple times. I’m all for that.

But by the time I will have listened to it 10x, Coptic will have listened to it around 90x.

I’m all for that too.

Pork