ban on complaints about Mass

[pnewton]

The vast majority of them are not relevant to anyone here. A priest makes judgments based on what the needs of his parishoners are, not everyone who has access to the internet. I would say the largest majority of the rants are not actually about anything illicit. Most are about music, or something that is not liked. If anything, the irrelevancy of most of things griped about speaks to me that the liturgy is being observed very properly most places.

 

[pnewton]

If priests simply did the red and said the black - and Bishops actually protected the liturgy - we would never have seen so many such threads.

Sure we would. People like to gripe. Most of the complaints are not about something that is explicitly illicit. Say the black and do the red, there are still many that will not like something and want to vent about it.

I prefer the old adage of letting our speech be seasoned with salt, but I really don’t mind people blowing off steam. However, if you are too hot with your speech, don’t turn around and be all offended when you get called on the carpet for over-stepping.

 

[buc_fan33]

I had just yesterday made a decision to leave these fora, but I saw this thread and thought that I needed to reply, because the topic at hand speaks precisely to the point of why I made the decision to leave. And, I guess I want to share my reasoning in the hope that someone will be persuaded by what I have to say.

First, in full disclosure, I am an ordained priest. I’ve been ordained for about nine months and I consider myself to be a faithful, orthodox priest. I’m a “JPII generation” priest. I love the Church with all of my heart. I don’t have a lot of time to dedicate to these fora, but I like to scan them when I have some down time or am in my office doing some paperwork. It’s a good way to break up some monotony. But, I am very frustrated and disturbed by what I read on here on a regular basis.

I have not counted, but I would wager to say that a substantial number of threads on here complain about real or perceived abuses in the liturgy. These are real concerns. I freely admit that. However, what I have found is the following:

1. There is an underlying assumption that “more traditional” necessarily equals “more reverent.” Yet, such a statement can’t see the heart of someone. It is very easy for people to put on a false aura of piety. Piety is internal, a fruit of the Holy Spirit that can’t be seen.
2. There is an implicit assumption that all priests are renegades, out abusing the liturgy. There is an assumption that priests do not take the liturgical documents seriously. There is an assumption that all seminaries are corrupt. (FWIW…there was a thread on here the other day on this exact topic.) I spent eight years in two different seminaries, and NOT ONCE saw, heard, or experienced what could in any way, shape, or form, be perceived as a “gay” subculture. But, and pardon my sarcasm here, continuing the slander against the American seminary system perpetuates the company line that “priests are all corrupt, every liturgy everywhere is a mess.”
3. Personal preference is put forward as “better.” Music has been debated ad nauseum on here, so I’m not going to wade into that mess again. But, whether it is communion in the hand or on the tongue, kneeling vs. standing, at the rail or not at the rail, ad orientem or versus populum, Latin or vernacular, this type of vestment or that type, or anything else, these are preferences and legitimate options that the Church allows.

Now, perhaps my radar is a little off and I am reading more into these comments than is there. But, this is what I, an ordained priest, am perceiving. How do you think the average lay Catholic perceives this, or someone coming here to learn about the faith? As it stands, I would NEVER, ever, recommend this forum to an RCIA candidate at my parish. The end result is a spirit of questioning and distrust, a disquiet of the soul which is most certainly not from God.

I know that many of my brother priests take liberties with the sacred liturgy which are not rightfully theirs. It pains me. But, it also offends me when I read criticisms being leveled against these men. First of all, these men have given their lives in faithful service to the Church. When is the last time anyone said “thank you,” to them? Second of all, remember when you were little, and you could pick on your kid brother, but if any of the other neighborhood kids did, there would be hell to pay? There’s a similar fraternal bond among priests. Even the thread about Fr. Suprsoaker. It’s wrong what he’s doing. It’s absurd. But, he’s still my brother priest. And even if your brother is the town drunk, and everyone knows he’s the town drunk, nobody better tell you he’s the town drunk, because at the end of the day, he’s still your brother.

My brother priests and I try as hard as we can to bring the people in our parish to a deeper faith and relationship with Jesus Christ. Having the laity question every single thing we do does not help matters. To put it bluntly, do I come to your place of employment and question everything you do in your job, consistently quoting your company handbook to you?

Sorry for the rant. I do not in any way want this to appear to be uncharitable. I enjoy these boards. I truly do. But, as I said in the beginning, as long as this mentality persists, I’m done.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Fr. buc_fan33,

Very well said!!!
And THANK YOU!!

 

[maltmom]

I had just yesterday made a decision to leave these fora, but I saw this thread and thought that I needed to reply, because the topic at hand speaks precisely to the point of why I made the decision to leave. And, I guess I want to share my reasoning in the hope that someone will be persuaded by what I have to say.

Sorry for the rant. I do not in any way want this to appear to be uncharitable. I enjoy these boards. I truly do. But, as I said in the beginning, as long as this mentality persists, I’m done.

I for one, do not want you to leave. I certainly understand if you do.

You are not being uncharitable. I cringe at how disrespectful our priests and other religious are spoken to and about on different forums here. There is no excuse for it. I know that the mods try to keep a handle on the situation, but they can’t be everywhere at all times.

Whatever you decide, you are in my prayers.

 

[JoyfulRC]

Fr. Buc_fan33

I’ve been hesitant to join the conversations for many of the reasons you cite. (Look at my join date and number of posts.). I am so very sorry that you feel insulted and unappreciated because of what you’ve read here.

For what it’s worth, I always say “Thank you, Father” after mass. Please know that your service to the Church and The Lord are appreciated. :grouphug:

 

[GwenL]

…

I know that many of my brother priests take liberties with the sacred liturgy which are not rightfully theirs. It pains me. But, it also offends me when I read criticisms being leveled against these men. First of all, these men have given their lives in faithful service to the Church. When is the last time anyone said “thank you,” to them?

…

My brother priests and I try as hard as we can to bring the people in our parish to a deeper faith and relationship with Jesus Christ. Having the laity question every single thing we do does not help matters. To put it bluntly, do I come to your place of employment and question everything you do in your job, consistently quoting your company handbook to you?

Sorry for the rant. I do not in any way want this to appear to be uncharitable. I enjoy these boards. I truly do. But, as I said in the beginning, as long as this mentality persists, I’m done.

Disclaimer: the entire post above is not quoted. I cut out parts because it was just too long to quote in its entirety.

Father Buc Fan…I have a few thoughts for you. Take them or leave them.

I say thank you to the priest after each and every Mass and confession and anointing and even blessing that I receive. I am extremely grateful that men have dedicated their lives to Christ and to bringing me His sacraments.

I don’t question every thing that priests do. However, the laity have a right to the liturgy celebrated properly, in accord with the rubrics and texts and with the mind of the church. Do you think that I should just suffer in silence when I see the Eucharistic prayer ad-libbed, and am left wondering if the consecration was valid? When the absolution I receive is not absolution because the priest has “better” words? I’m sure that you know how painful this is for the layperson.

You know, I spent 26 plus years in the Air Force, as a pilot, staff officer, squadron commander, and yes, people came into my place of work every day and questioned everything I did, and quoted the company rule book at me. The Inspector General, Standardization/Evaluation, Airman “Smith’s” mother, the Washington Post, my commander, my subordinates, CNN, the other units on base…yup, everybody wanted to know what I was doing and why. And if I screwed up, people died. People in high stakes professions or vocations get a lot of visibility and a lot of comments and a lot of unwanted (and usually unneeded) advice. You are in a high stakes vocation.

We should always approach the clergy with respect and charity, and with questions rather than accusations. Likewise, the clergy should respond with respect and charity. I imagine that many people who rant and complain (here on the CAF and in the real world) are projecting their own problems and failings. As a pastor or PV, I’d think that you might identify their hostility as probably indicting some other problem that needs to be addressed and worked out.

People on these boards do post in error. Many people yell “liturgical abuse!!!” when what they are seeing is personal preference. And other people jump right in and correct them. I think that I’d rather have some ignorant person post here, learn that their imagined “liturgical abuse” is really allowed by the Church, rather than harass their exasperated pastor. I think that these fora are a good place to learn about the rubrics, though as with any internet experience, one must separate the wheat from the chaff.

I don’t think that there is a general assumption about priests being renegades. There might be a person or two who thinks so, but it’s a small minority. A very loud and obnoxious minority, to be sure.

What I find most disturbing is the auto-default “write the bishop,” and this seems to happen even before the person has talked with the priest. What a lack of common sense and respect that demonstrates! I’ve formally written my bishop twice, and both times it was to praise and complement our rector.

So, I’d hope you might take much of what is said on CAF with a grain of internet salt, and continue to teach those who are teachable, and add your very unique and very valuable perspective. When you jump into a thread, calmly pointing out the actual rubrics or options or teaching, those with ears to hear are grateful and learn a great deal.

 

[buc_fan33]

Fr. Buc_fan33

I’ve been hesitant to join the conversations for many of the reasons you cite. (Look at my join date and number of posts.). I am so very sorry that you feel insulted and unappreciated because of what you’ve read here.

For what it’s worth, I always say “Thank you, Father” after mass. Please know that your service to the Church and The Lord are appreciated. :grouphug:

Just for the record, I don’t feel insulted or unappreciated. But, thanks much for the concern!

 

[clem456]

I don’t question every thing that priests do. However, the laity have a right to the liturgy celebrated properly, in accord with the rubrics and texts and with the mind of the church. **Do you think that I should just suffer in silence when I see the Eucharistic prayer ad-libbed, and am left wondering if the consecration was valid? ** When the absolution I receive is not absolution because the priest has “better” words? I’m sure that you know how painful this is for the layperson.

My simple answer to the bold question is
'yes"
based on the lives of the saints that I have read about

Although there are some contingencies to that. Talking charitably to pastors and music directors is sometimes a good idea. But some of these things, we just have to accept that God will take care of his Church, in His time, in His way. Offer it up. One thing I’m trying to learn is that obedience is more valuable in God’s eyes than being right. Just my :twocents:

 

[jwinch2]

I say thank you to the priest after each and every Mass and confession and anointing and even blessing that I receive. I am extremely grateful that men have dedicated their lives to Christ and to bringing me His sacraments.

I don’t question every thing that priests do. However, the laity have a right to the liturgy celebrated properly, in accord with the rubrics and texts and with the mind of the church. Do you think that I should just suffer in silence when I see the Eucharistic prayer ad-libbed, and am left wondering if the consecration was valid? When the absolution I receive is not absolution because the priest has “better” words? I’m sure that you know how painful this is for the layperson.

You know, I spent 26 plus years in the Air Force, as a pilot, staff officer, squadron commander, and yes, people came into my place of work every day and questioned everything I did, and quoted the company rule book at me. The Inspector General, Standardization/Evaluation, Airman “Smith’s” mother, the Washington Post, my commander, my subordinates, CNN, the other units on base…yup, everybody wanted to know what I was doing and why. And if I screwed up, people died. People in high stakes professions or vocations get a lot of visibility and a lot of comments and a lot of unwanted (and usually unneeded) advice. You are in a high stakes vocation.

You bring up some very good points, as does Father in his post above. I am sure all of us could stand to be more charitable. That counts for me, 100% to be sure.

One thing I would note is this. Many who come here to talk about these issues are those who have been suffering through them in silence for many years, who have tried speaking with priest politely and respectfully, only to get nowhere. Many are in situations where the parish is more under the control of the liturgy committee than it is the pastor, who is probably doing his best, and cannot afford to upset everyone by making drastic changes. Those people find CAF and suddenly realize that they are not alone, and in fact, they might not be as crazy as other people have told them they are either.

In addition, I would suggest that what is often dismissed as personal preference is not really personal preference as often as some would like to make it out to be. The documents of Vatican II do say specific things about the language in the Mass, the musical instrumentation, the type of music, etc. This is not someone’s personal preference, this is what the Church officially teaches. Our Pope Emeritus has been quite explicit in the fact that the teachings of Vatican II according to the liturgy have not been implemented properly. Again, this is not personal preference on the part of the laity, it is the teachings of the man who at the time he said it, was the Pope.

As for being in a job where everyone else tries to tell you how to do it, welcome to the club. As a professor in a state university, my class evaluations from students are posted online for the whole world to see, as are my annual evaluations from my supervisor. My tenure and promotion packet and all pertinent information is open for view from anyone in the university when I go up for tenure (which I do next Fall). My research is out there for the world to see, and I get anonymous comments from reviewers and editors. Have you spent any time on the website Rate My Professor? If so, enough said. If not, it makes CAF look like the nicest most polite place on the planet. Yet professors, including me, regularly get raked through the coals on there, have our name directly mentioned and attacked, and anyone in the world can read it, at any time. If you search my name and the word “professor” it comes up. Believe me, I’ve done it. I’ve had my name trashed on internet forums by those who disagree with my research and also at professional conferences. I have found my name getting drug through the mud by a former student who thought it was so unfair after they failed my class because they didn’t turn in 50% of their assignments. I could probably go on forever here.

Bottom line, while I agree with some of Father’s comments above, and understand where he is coming from completely, it isn’t always that simple.

However, he is absolutely 100% correct in one thing. We need to thank them more, we need to encourage them more, and we definitely need to pray for them more.

My two cents anyway, people are welcome to take it or leave it.

Peace of Christ,

 

[buc_fan33]

I say thank you to the priest after each and every Mass and confession and anointing and even blessing that I receive. I am extremely grateful that men have dedicated their lives to Christ and to bringing me His sacraments.

Thank you. Sincerely! Thank you! It is the greatest joy and honor of my life to serve as a priest!

I don’t question every thing that priests do. However, the laity have a right to the liturgy celebrated properly, in accord with the rubrics and texts and with the mind of the church. Do you think that I should just suffer in silence when I see the Eucharistic prayer ad-libbed, and am left wondering if the consecration was valid? When the absolution I receive is not absolution because the priest has “better” words? I’m sure that you know how painful this is for the layperson.

Yes, the laity do have a right to a properly celebrated liturgy. And yes, i do know how painful it is. i suffered through much of this myself. it is why i take my responsibility so seriously when it comes to the liturgy and celebrating the sacraments exactly as the Church proscribes. And, no I don’t think you or anyone else should suffer in silence. I think you should follow the dictates of the Gospel when engaging in fraternal correction. Priests, like anyone else, need to be fraternally corrected at times. But, thank God He set out a clear description right in the pages of Scripture about how this should be done. But, I also don’t think that your complaint should be brought to a public message board like this. The potential harm caused by the scandal, especially if someone is misinformed, is too great. More importantly, as I said above, it instills in others an inherent distrust of their priests. It fosters a mentality that the job of the laity is to go to Mass looking to be the liturgical police officer, rather than looking to enter into prayer. Someone cannot pray while at the same time making mental notes about what sections of the GIRM to consult in order to make sure that Father did it correctly.

You know, I spent 26 plus years in the Air Force, as a pilot, staff officer, squadron commander, and yes, people came into my place of work every day and questioned everything I did, and quoted the company rule book at me. The Inspector General, Standardization/Evaluation, Airman “Smith’s” mother, the Washington Post, my commander, my subordinates, CNN, the other units on base…yup, everybody wanted to know what I was doing and why. And if I screwed up, people died. People in high stakes professions or vocations get a lot of visibility and a lot of comments and a lot of unwanted (and usually unneeded) advice. You are in a high stakes vocation.

First, thank you for your service to our country. Everything you said here is correct. But, I would wager that your response to Airman Smith’s mother was different than your response to your commanding officer. As a priest, I have to give my attention to everyone in the parish, because I am their servant. Jesus Christ “came to serve, not to be served,” and all Christians must imitate that as best we can. So, if someone comes and wants to speak to me, I will do everything I can to accommodate the person. But, we all still must realize that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the Church, not me, not my bishop, not even the pope. No one but Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

We should always approach the clergy with respect and charity, and with questions rather than accusations. Likewise, the clergy should respond with respect and charity. I imagine that many people who rant and complain (here on the CAF and in the real world) are projecting their own problems and failings. As a pastor or PV, I’d think that you might identify their hostility as probably indicting some other problem that needs to be addressed and worked out.

Very true.

People on these boards do post in error. Many people yell “liturgical abuse!!!” when what they are seeing is personal preference. And other people jump right in and correct them. I think that I’d rather have some ignorant person post here, learn that their imagined “liturgical abuse” is really allowed by the Church, rather than harass their exasperated pastor. I think that these fora are a good place to learn about the rubrics, though as with any internet experience, one must separate the wheat from the chaff.

Again, true, but in charity. And, we must be careful to avoid giving scandal.

What I find most disturbing is the auto-default “write the bishop,” and this seems to happen even before the person has talked with the priest. What a lack of common sense and respect that demonstrates! I’ve formally written my bishop twice, and both times it was to praise and complement our rector.

On behalf of your rector…thank you for that.

 

[Catholic_Wife]

I had just yesterday made a decision to leave these fora, but I saw this thread and thought that I needed to reply, because the topic at hand speaks precisely to the point of why I made the decision to leave.

And, I guess I want to share my reasoning in the hope that someone will be persuaded by what I have to say.
Although I understand your decision, I will be sad to see you go, Father.

I actually left the forum for a long time after an incident involving a new “procedure” during Mass (purifying vessels) that I learned about here. It was several months (6-9 months) after the directive came down from the Vatican before our parish started doing things “the right way”. I realized I had developed an uncharitable mindset against my priest because he was “being a renegade” and “doing things his way”. I even gave up being an EMHC because I wouldn’t allow myself to be “disobedient to Rome”, no matter what my priest did. I finally approached my priest, not with attitude of charity and wanting to understand, but with an attitude of righteous indignation and accuasation that I felt justified in having because of what I had read here. I was basically put in my place when it was explained to me the process of how things happen once something new comes from the Vatican. Things don’t happen overnight or as fast as some on this forum expect they should happen. Just as a mandate from the President doesn’t take effect immediately, and the various levels of government have to decide how a new policy will be implemented as it trickles down, so things happen in the Church. I learned an attitude of humilty and submission to authority (my bishop and my priest) and learned the most important lesson: ASK YOUR PRIEST FIRST! Now, instead of believing my priest to be doing his own thing, I go to him and ask him about what I learn about here and offer my assistance in any way he needs.

I would prefer to see people frame those posts as asking questions about Mass

, rather than complaining about the Mass.

Actually, I’d rather the people first asked their priests the questions.
Whenever I see our new priest do something, I ask him about it. It’s amazing what what I have learned since I began to approach him in this manner. I also chuckle to myself on the rare occasion that he begins the Creed, “We believe…” because it shows that he’s human, just like the rest of us who forget and occasionally revert to the “old way”.

 

[pnewton]

I think the reason why these rants do not get me down is I remember that tolerating everything except intolerance is a rampant problem in the political arena, as well as liturgy. St. Paul did was will to become all things for all people in an area that I think has direct correlation here, namely, spiritual freedom. In areas where priests act freely and push the boundries sometimes even into the illicit (but not always) for the sake of being a good shepherd to their flocks, they do this with the authority granted them over than particular liturgy. If we have some brothers and sisters for which this is a spiritual distraction, the last thing we need to do is castigate them because they are unable to just focus on God and move on. Rather, they need to be treated pastorally as well; tolerate the intolerant, as it were.