I can see more abuse from the judgmental attitudes of people who think every young person must think like an adult.Lamentably, as I see it, we are cheating the youth out of their patrimonal, sacred heritage. They have just as much a right as the adults to have a Mass free of liturgical abuse and rich in the Church’s sacred tradtion, including proper, sacred music.
What you don’t take into account is that many youth and teens don’t think in abstract terms.The Mass needs to be something beyond them, something beyond the ordinary. They do not realize that at the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted. They may not even be aware that they are not the only ones present at Mass, that they are surrounded by a cloud of unseen witnesses, the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering. The music used at these Masses certainly does not take that into account.
Actually, I learned this when I was very young, in elementary school. Furthermore, for centuries, young and old have been chanting sacred hymns. Don Bosco’s young boys certainly did not need all of the trappings of their contemporary period to pray at Mass. If I recalled, Don Bosco produced a great number of priests and bishops and upstanding Catholic young men. And, he maintained the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and did not tinker with it.I can see more abuse from the judgmental attitudes of people who think every young person must think like an adult.
What you don’t take into account is that many youth and teens don’t think in abstract terms.
Let them mature at their own pace. Don’t force-feed them. I am glad the Church is trying to meet our youth where they are at, instead of displaying the unempathetic attitudes of certain traditionalists.
Blessings
We have a teen Mass at my parish on Sunday nights. I never attend as it’s not my cup of tea and it’s not at a convenient time but I had to a few Sundays ago due to personal scheduling.Enough with the youth masses! There are too many liturgical violations. Teens come to Mass with torn jeans and dirty shirts.
I have watched youth Masses for some 20 years now and I grew up in the Catholic Church during the 1970s a horrible period for the church. I was born in 1969 and unfortunately, the Church changed at that time. Most blatant was the change to the liturgy but also during this time the young liberal clergy took on an attitude of “Kumbaya” at Mass.
The focus on Christ’s sacrifice and suffering for our sins was minimized so that we could gather together in a spirit of “Kumbaya.” We may be the church but we are not Jesus. We cannot wave our arms, dance, chant, hold hands and “Kumbaya” at Mass.
I hope and pray that our Church reforms this practice of “Kumbaya” and minimizes the influence of the touchy, feel good 1970s clergy remaining in the church. Let’s maximize and fill our hearts and souls with the suffering and sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross!
A truly wonderful posting. The ridiculous stereotyping and the erroneous conclusions do get old after a while. Thank you and Godspeed!Benedictgal,
The document came in 2005, which means five years has passed. Thus far no motions have been made to squash Youth Masses nor has any efforts been made to squash any movement/priestly orders in good standing with Rome.
Saying that “the songs come from the Protestant genre” isn’t the best argument to make, as musically wise the Church has long been influenced by outside sources, including taking hymns from Protestants (and in Mozart’s case a mason). Handel and Bach are both notable examples of this. And then when the Anglicans come with their Anglican Use, there is obviously some heavy Protestant influences (since, you know, they were Protestants recently). Looking through the “Music Leaders Show Us Your Music” thread I see several hymns selected or endorsed by yourself and others that were written/arranged by Protestants. And of course, throughout it’s history the Church has been influenced by the “popular music” and “popular artists” at the time (once again, see the “Classical Masters” like Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bach, Messiaen, etc, etc).
There’s been a lot of abuses at several Masses, not just Youth Masses. In fact, there’s an entire order of priests who are committing an abuse of disobedience at the moment (although steps are being made to correct this apparently), so although some claim their Masses are “free from abuse”, in my opinion those Masses are abusive by default due to the action of the order as a whole. Sound familiar?
The assumption is, as always “Youth Mass” = “Abuses”, which is akin to Fundamentalists saying “Catholics = Mary Worshippers” because they’ve seen and read a few things. Several posters come on here and say that the Youth Masses they go to/have seen are free from abuses. Rome may have concerns, but they also encourage Youth Masses as well, otherwise we wouldn’t have things like World Youth Day, NET Ministries, Catholic Christian Outreach, the Companions of the Cross and other such organizations/Orders.
I’m inclined to agree with mardukm regarding the kind of abuse dished out by some of the “traditionalists” on this message board and those who I have met in person. I know I certainly visit this web site much less than I used to because of the demeaning and disrespectful nature of some “traditionalists”. We do youth a terrible disservice by exposing them to such things.
We have several things in common Benedictgal, including reservations about where we would send our teens to Church. I certainly have reservations encouraging them to go to a “traditionalist” parish due to the abuses displayed by some here and those displayed by schismatic orders.
But hey, apparently I’m a heretic who loves Jesus less than everyone else PLUS I’m less of a Catholic than everyone because I do the whole “play drums at Mass” business. So my opinion doesn’t matter, I guess.
I’ll be checking off the site again, but before I do anticipate;
**- Selective document posting without regard to the musical history of society (which like it or not, does impact the Church), plus some selective omissions (like the fact kettle drums were permitted for sometime).
God bless all, and see you in a month or something. Unless I get banned for being a drum playing heretic.
- Further gross generalizations and blanket statements, with wide brushes being used.
- A few Chewbacca Defences.
- And claims about “due respect” being given without it being delivered. (SO TRUE!! Said claims would be horribly offensive after awhile if they did not become so downright boring… :yawn: )**
Personally, I prefer the Polka Mass:Naah. Quite the contrary.
Masses should be customized. As someone said, “whatever it takes.”
Then there’ll be the Young Parent Mass, the Grouch Mass, the Just-Getting-My-Ticket-Punched Mass, and of course, my personal favorite, the Scott Mass.
–Scott
“Hey, it really is all about me!”
Don Bosco lived in a very different time. It’s not the Church’s method of reaching out to the youth that is the problem. It is the environment that our youth are being exposed to.Actually, I learned this when I was very young, in elementary school. Furthermore, for centuries, young and old have been chanting sacred hymns. Don Bosco’s young boys certainly did not need all of the trappings of their contemporary period to pray at Mass. If I recalled, Don Bosco produced a great number of priests and bishops and upstanding Catholic young men.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the same now as it was in the past. The NO is no different in sacredness and intent from the EF, anymore than the Tridentine Mass differs in sacredness and intent from the Mass before it.And, he maintained the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and did not tinker with it.
They can learn to appreciate it as they mature. Forcing it on them won’t help.We do today’s youth a terrible disservice by not exposing them to the Church’s rich treasury of sacred music. Instead, we feed them a terrible diet of whatever is playing on the radio.
I oppose intolerance wherever I see it, even intolerance under the guise of supporting Tradition.There is no need for you to denigrate my opinion nor that of others who believe the same way.
The text said only “a few” made these comments. Further, I’m inclined to think that they were talking about actual secular music, not contemoprary religious songs. For instance, I once attended Mass at a Latin church where they played a U2 song. Given that only “a few” expressed complaints about this indicates that this was not a widespread phenomenon.The Synod Fathers obviously held the same opinion, lest they would not have written what they wrote, considering the music used at these “youth Masses” to be a shadow.
That’s your prerogative. It doesn’t give you the right to demean what other parents do for their kids.I know that if I had teenagers, I would not encourage them to attend these “youth Masses”.
Personally, I prefer the Whiz Mass:Personally, I prefer the Polka Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=VawIq9Ln1wQ
Actually, with all due respect, what you do not understand is the provision in Musicam Sacram that expressly addresses instruments:Benedictgal,
The document came in 2005, which means five years has passed. Thus far no motions have been made to squash Youth Masses nor has any efforts been made to squash any movement/priestly orders in good standing with Rome.
Saying that “the songs come from the Protestant genre” isn’t the best argument to make, as musically wise the Church has long been influenced by outside sources, including taking hymns from Protestants (and in Mozart’s case a mason). Handel and Bach are both notable examples of this. And then when the Anglicans come with their Anglican Use, there is obviously some heavy Protestant influences (since, you know, they were Protestants recently). Looking through the “Music Leaders Show Us Your Music” thread I see several hymns selected or endorsed by yourself and others that were written/arranged by Protestants. And of course, throughout it’s history the Church has been influenced by the “popular music” and “popular artists” at the time (once again, see the “Classical Masters” like Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bach, Messiaen, etc, etc).
There’s been a lot of abuses at several Masses, not just Youth Masses. In fact, there’s an entire order of priests who are committing an abuse of disobedience at the moment (although steps are being made to correct this apparently), so although some claim their Masses are “free from abuse”, in my opinion those Masses are abusive by default due to the action of the order as a whole. Sound familiar?
The assumption is, as always “Youth Mass” = “Abuses”, which is akin to Fundamentalists saying “Catholics = Mary Worshippers” because they’ve seen and read a few things. Several posters come on here and say that the Youth Masses they go to/have seen are free from abuses. Rome may have concerns, but they also encourage Youth Masses as well, otherwise we wouldn’t have things like World Youth Day, NET Ministries, Catholic Christian Outreach, the Companions of the Cross and other such organizations/Orders.
I’m inclined to agree with mardukm regarding the kind of abuse dished out by some of the “traditionalists” on this message board and those who I have met in person. I know I certainly visit this web site much less than I used to because of the demeaning and disrespectful nature of some “traditionalists”. We do youth a terrible disservice by exposing them to such things.
We have several things in common Benedictgal, including reservations about where we would send our teens to Church. I certainly have reservations encouraging them to go to a “traditionalist” parish due to the abuses displayed by some here and those displayed by schismatic orders.
But hey, apparently I’m a heretic who loves Jesus less than everyone else PLUS I’m less of a Catholic than everyone because I do the whole “play drums at Mass” business. So my opinion doesn’t matter, I guess.
I’ll be checking off the site again, but before I do anticipate;
God bless all, and see you in a month or something. Unless I get banned for being a drum playing heretic.
- Selective document posting without regard to the musical history of society (which like it or not, does impact the Church), plus some selective omissions (like the fact kettle drums were permitted for sometime).
- Further gross generalizations and blanket statements, with wide brushes being used.
- A few Chewbacca Defences.
- And claims about “due respect” being given without it being delivered.
You and I have had this discussion before. Furthermore, please do not type words into my post. I have never accused you of being a heretic.
- In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44
Liturgical song
Unfortunately, publishing houses like OCP act as though these words have never been written and continue to push the banal, masquerading it as music appropriate for the Mass. I stand by what I have written.
- In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. **Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). **Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).
With all due respect, please do not characterize me as intolerant. Having been subjected to these particular liturgies in my late teens and early 20s, I did not find them at all conducive to the proper solemnity and dignity of the Mass, and I hold that opinion today.Don Bosco lived in a very different time. It’s not the Church’s method of reaching out to the youth that is the problem. It is the environment that our youth are being exposed to.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the same now as it was in the past. The NO is no different in sacredness and intent from the EF, anymore than the Tridentine Mass differs in sacredness and intent from the Mass before it.
They can learn to appreciate it as they mature. Forcing it on them won’t help.
I oppose intolerance wherever I see it, even intolerance under the guise of supporting Tradition.
The text said only “a few” made these comments. Further, I’m inclined to think that they were talking about actual secular music, not contemoprary religious songs. For instance, I once attended Mass at a Latin church where they played a U2 song. Given that only “a few” expressed complaints about this indicates that this was not a widespread phenomenon.
That’s your prerogative. It doesn’t give you the right to demean what other parents do for their kids.
Blessings
That may be. However, it doesn’t really address my point - by participating in World Youth Day masses, both in 2005 and 2008, and next year in 2011, the holy father is implicitly endorsing such youth masses.I would not necessarily go that far, Digitonomy. The Holy Father made not a few changes to the WYD Mass, giving it solemnity and dignity. The music was a huge improvement over previous ones. He is leading by example.
First of all, Cat, we have had this discussion before. With all due respect, disagreement is not akin to disobedience. Please understand that. When the faithful have a legitimate concern, they have every right to question what is happnening in their parishes. Redemptionis Sacramentum guarantees the faithful the right to a properly celebrated Mass. This also includes young people.As long as the Holy Mother Church allows “teen Masses” and does not ban them, and as long as our bishops and priests choose to offer “teen Masses” in their parishes, then we should not criticize those who choose to attend teen Masses. We are not the priests, called by God to shepherd the Church. We are the sheep, and sheep should not criticize their shepherds.
As I read more and more of CAF, I believe even more strongly that Catholics are going down a very dangerous road by being so critical of their priests. Yes, certainly some priests are teaching heretical things and many priests play around with the liturgy, and it’s worth bringing to the attention of the priest. But to write up the priest’s failings on a worldwide, public online forum is not going to help correct the situation. All of these public criticisms of priests and their decisions, even the ones that are somewhat justifiable, merely contribute to an atmosphere of distrust and lack of respect for priests in general.
No wonder so many Catholics stop attending Mass–“the priest is not in compliance with the Vatican and he allows all kinds of abuses, so why should I waste my time? He doesn’t know what he’s doing.”
No WONDER so many Catholics doubt the True Presence–after listening to so many criticisms of the priest and his homilies, or the music in his Masses, or the priest allowing so many people to come to Mass in jeans or tank tops, or the priest allowing people to chit-chat before Mass, or the priest allowing the announcements to go on for several minutes, etc. etc. etc., --people who are weak and uncatechised in their faith (IMO, that would be MOST Catholics) are going to find it easy to believe that the priest (and therefore the Church) does not tell the truth about the Presence of Jesus in a bit of bread and a drop of wine.
This is an issue of respect for and submission to Church authority. Like I said, the Church allows “Teen Masses.” Never have they been forbidden. The Church allows bishops to determine which instruments and music are appropriate for Masses in their diocese–at this point, even though some laypeople read their own personal preferences into the various Church documents and even though our Holy Father has expressed his personal dislike of “rock music,”, there is currently NO official Church edict forbidding “rock” music or “contemporary music” in the Mass.
Whether or not to offer a “Teen Mass” is up to the priest under the direction of their bishop. We can personally and privately dislike his choice, but we are doing a very bad and dangerous thing to tear down his work. If we as Catholics continue along this path and tear away at our priests and bishops, we will find ourselves standing next to a pile of rubble that used to be our Church.
I do not think you understood what I wrote. These are not necessarily “youth Masses” per se. It is the Mass where youth happen to be. The music has changed considerably from what had been used in the past. He is trying to bring in the sacred and the solemn and introduce the youth to the true nature of the Mass. He is effecting change.That may be. However, it doesn’t really address my point - by participating in World Youth Day masses, both in 2005 and 2008, and next year in 2011, the holy father is implicitly endorsing such youth masses.
My “proof” is my trust in my bishop, the apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. Is it wrong of me to trust my bishop and to believe that he is capable of correctly and reverently guiding the flock entrusted to him?First of all, Cat, we have had this discussion before. With all due respect, disagreement is not akin to disobedience. Please understand that. When the faithful have a legitimate concern, they have every right to question what is happnening in their parishes. Redemptionis Sacramentum guarantees the faithful the right to a properly celebrated Mass. This also includes young people.
Obedience works both ways. Those who sponoser and plan these “youth Masses” are obliged to obey the authoritative documents of the Church. Do you have any proof that the Church allows deviances from the Mass? Do you have any proof that the Church specifically made allowances for these kind of Masses to occur?
What I see as dangerous is the fact that there are movements who tend to regard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as their own personal property and do with it as they please. They seem to regard this as a some sort of free form exercise in creativity. Not a few abuses have found their way into Youth Masses, such as the teens gathering around the altar, deviances from the form of dismissal and, in some cases, dancing. Inasmuch as the CDWDS has addressed these issues, there are still some groups that will do their won thing. Furtehrmore, if they want to introduce banal music, then perhaps this is better suited for youth gatherings that are of a non-liturgical nature. For those of you who may be appalled at the use of the word “banal”, this is not my reference. Pope Benedict used this word to describe the music. Unfortunately, there are those who will not take him at his word.