Banned from sacraments?

[rkberlin]

Peace to all of you!
Question: my dh and I are kind of separated ( he cheated on me a total of 3 times, the last time just 3 months ago, and said he wanted a divorce ). He’s about 7 hours away from here with his work, but we’re also pondering the thought of divorce ( well, he not so much anymore, but I can’t really trust him, can I ? ). I still attend mass regularly ( he’s not, hasn’t gone to confession yet, either, too busy, sick, whatever the excuse ) and I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

 

[SMHW]

rkberlin:

Peace to all of you!
Question: my dh and I are kind of separated ( he cheated on me a total of 3 times, the last time just 3 months ago, and said he wanted a divorce ). He’s about 7 hours away from here with his work, but we’re also pondering the thought of divorce ( well, he not so much anymore, but I can’t really trust him, can I ? ). I still attend mass regularly ( he’s not, hasn’t gone to confession yet, either, too busy, sick, whatever the excuse ) and I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

You are not barred from the sacraments for seperating from your husband. You would not be barred for getting a divorce either. In the case of an unfaithful spouse you sometimes do not have a choice.

Dating another man or marrying again would keep you from the sacraments because you are still married to your husband whether or not you are living with him.

 

[AltarMan]

SMHW:

You are not barred from the sacraments for seperating from your husband. You would not be barred for getting a divorce either. In the case of an unfaithful spouse you sometimes do not have a choice.
**
*Dating another man or marrying again would keep you from the sacraments ***because you are still married to your husband whether or not you are living with him.

No.

Dating wouldn’t keep her from the sacraments, unless fornication was involved.

Marrying again wouldn’t keep her from the sacraments if she had an anullment.

 

[bear06]

AltarMan:

No.

Dating wouldn’t keep her from the sacraments, unless fornication was involved.

Marrying again wouldn’t keep her from the sacraments if she had an anullment.

One should not date unless they have received an annullment. The Church frowns on dating while you are married which you would still be unless an annullment were in place.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

rkberlin:

Peace to all of you!
Question: my dh and I are kind of separated ( he cheated on me a total of 3 times, the last time just 3 months ago, and said he wanted a divorce ). He’s about 7 hours away from here with his work, but we’re also pondering the thought of divorce ( well, he not so much anymore, but I can’t really trust him, can I ? ). I still attend mass regularly ( he’s not, hasn’t gone to confession yet, either, too busy, sick, whatever the excuse ) and I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

You would be what is called the innocent spouse. Even if a civil divorce were to take place you have not contributed to the circumstances leading up to the divorce. Marriage counseling would be in order at this point, speak with your pastor.

You are not excluded for the Sacraments.

 

[asquared]

rkberlin:

Peace toand I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

this is a question for your priest in confession only he knows the state of your soul, definitely not a question for anonymous internet strangers (even tho we feel like friends), we are all praying for you.

 

[mosher]

asquared:

this is a question for your priest in confession only he knows the state of your soul, definitely not a question for anonymous internet strangers (even tho we feel like friends), we are all praying for you.

Actually this is a very simple case and Br. Rich answered adaquately. You are correct that consultation with ones pastor is a good thing to do but sometimes they are not as familiar with some of the canonical issues surrounding matrimony.

 

[AltarMan]

**this is a question for your priest in confession only he knows the state of your soul, definitely not a question for anonymous internet strangers **(even tho we feel like friends), we are all praying for you.

You’re wrong.

While a good confession/counseling session is indeed a great idea, some of these things are a matter of record – they can be looked-up, be it in the Code of Canons, etc.

 

[AltarMan]

One should not date unless they have received an annullment. The Church frowns on dating while you are married which you would still be unless an annullment were in place.

You’re wrong, although the definition of “dating” is rather vague. It could very well mean non-romantic/sexual companionship and there would be nothing at all wrong with that.

 

[bear06]

AltarMan:

You’re wrong, although the definition of “dating” is rather vague. It could very well mean non-romantic/sexual companionship and there would be nothing at all wrong with that.

Hello?! What exactly am I wrong about? I believe you’ve given the definition of a platonic relationship. How many people actually use the word dating to describe a platonic relationship? “I’m dating Mr. Smith” 99% of the time means it is a romantic relationship even if it is not physical. The Church frowns on near occaisions of sin and dating, in the way our society uses the word, would be a near occaision of sin for someone who’s marriage is not annulled. To tell someone it’s OK to date when they are married is very dangerous unless you’d like to spell out for them that a platonic relationship is all in which they should be engaging which you have not.

 

[mosher]

bear06:

Hello?! What exactly am I wrong about? I believe you’ve given the definition of a platonic relationship. How many people actually use the word dating to describe a platonic relationship? “I’m dating Mr. Smith” 99% of the time means it is a romantic relationship even if it is not physical. The Church frowns on near occaisions of sin and dating, in the way our society uses the word, would be a near occaision of sin for someone who’s marriage is not annulled. To tell someone it’s OK to date when they are married is very dangerous unless you’d like to spell out for them that a platonic relationship is all in which they should be engaging which you have not.

Correct, the opperative idea here is we should avoid all near occasions of sin. We must always remember that to act in a moral way one must assume the validity of the marriage untill proof is made to the contrary.

 

[AltarMan]

bear06:

Hello?! What exactly am I wrong about? I believe you’ve given the definition of a platonic relationship. How many people actually use the word dating to describe a platonic relationship? “I’m dating Mr. Smith” 99% of the time means it is a romantic relationship even if it is not physical. The Church frowns on near occaisions of sin and dating, in the way our society uses the word, would be a near occaision of sin for someone who’s marriage is not annulled. To tell someone it’s OK to date when they are married is very dangerous unless you’d like to spell out for them that a platonic relationship is all in which they should be engaging which you have not.

Hello.

More than a few…

It’s not unheard of for people that are divorced and remarried without an anullment to live together as “brother and sister”, even though they are married…

Hello.

 

[bear06]

AltarMan:

Hello.

More than a few…

It’s not unheard of for people that are divorced and remarried without an anullment to live together as “brother and sister”, even though they are married…

Hello.

Where do you come from? That is a rarity. The Church still would frown upon that happening unless it was already the case. I seriously doubt that you could find anyone in the Magisterium directing someone to do that. Now it’s another thing to have divorced and remarried and then have come to your senses and realized that you are not really married to that person. It’s an entirely different situation to divorce and then to think that the Magisterium would say go ahead and remarry even though you don’t have an annullment. This would be the same for dating. I think you’d be hardpressed to find someone in the Magisterium who said it was OK to date without first procurring and annullment. You seem to be switching your argument.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

rkberlin:

Peace to all of you!
Question: my dh and I are kind of separated ( he cheated on me a total of 3 times, the last time just 3 months ago, and said he wanted a divorce ). He’s about 7 hours away from here with his work, but we’re also pondering the thought of divorce ( well, he not so much anymore, but I can’t really trust him, can I ? ). I still attend mass regularly ( he’s not, hasn’t gone to confession yet, either, too busy, sick, whatever the excuse ) and I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

I recommend you consult your local Bishop on the matter.

Canon law states:

Can. 1152 §3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

AltarMan:

Hello.

More than a few…

It’s not unheard of for people that are divorced and remarried without an anullment to live together as “brother and sister”, even though they are married…

Hello.

To divorce and remarry without an annulment is contrary to canon law. In fact, to divorce without ecclesiastical approval is contrary to canon law, even if you do not remarry.

You are correct that violation of canon law is not unheard of. But it is objectively unlawful for Catholics to do so. According to the Holy See, the first obligation of those divorced and remarried withou annulment is to separate, but for serious reasons (upbringing of children), separation may cause more harm than good. See more here:

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger states, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church Concerning the Reception of Holy Communion by the Divorced and Remarried Members of the Faithful, 14 Sep 1994 vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html

“The faithful who persist in such a situation [divorced and remarried, without annulment] may receive Holy Communion only after obtaining sacramental absolution, which may be given only “to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when for serious reasons, for example, for the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they 'take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples’”(8). In such a case they may receive Holy Communion as long as they respect the obligation to avoid giving scandal.”

 

[rkberlin]

whoa whoa, ok, thanks to everybody for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Now I’m confused. So, I guess I have to talk to the bishop and get the separation approved??? Then what, try and forgive dh again and again and again? Our priest from our last parish told me that Jesus talked about forgiving not once, but 70 times 7 times. Well, I guess then dh can keep on messing around and exposing the kids and me to more diseases? This isn’t very fair to the “innocent” spouse, is it? I’m not surprised that many people leave the church then…

itsjustdave1988:

I recommend you consult your local Bishop on the matter.

Canon law states:

Can. 1152 §3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

 

[bear06]

rkberlin:

whoa whoa, ok, thanks to everybody for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Now I’m confused. So, I guess I have to talk to the bishop and get the separation approved??? Then what, try and forgive dh again and again and again? Our priest from our last parish told me that Jesus talked about forgiving not once, but 70 times 7 times. Well, I guess then dh can keep on messing around and exposing the kids and me to more diseases? This isn’t very fair to the “innocent” spouse, is it? I’m not surprised that many people leave the church then…

God didn’t promise our lives here on earth to always be filled with joy. I know, for me, that’s a tough pill to swallow. We are promised, if we follow God’s commands, that our reward will be great in heaven. I will pray for your husband’s conversion/reversion (miracles do occur) and will also pray for you and your children to remain strong in your Faith. My brother was quite the wayward husband and he is now a repentent man very involved with the Faith so I can tell you it can happen. We prayed very hard and long for him. Just so you know, you are under no obligation to put your health at risk.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

You know, your best bet would be to ask a couple priests- not to “parish shop” in hopes of parish hopping, but so that you make sure you don’t end up with a priest who is so far out of Church teaching that he either has no idea what the Church teaches, or makes up his own stuff as he goes along. You might also want to call your chancery office, and see if you actually need to contact the bishop before you get a divorce. In some dioceses, that’s how it’s done. In others, a person can’t get an anullment (decre of nullity) without having gotten a bona fide civil divorce and waiting at least a year. And believe it or not, a lot of dioceses have programs and offices that deal with the separated and divorced. Most of the people who work in these offices have been through what you yourself are going through now, working under ecclesiastical guidance, and would be much better situatied to guide you in your decision than a bunch of strangers on a web site. That’s why it’s so hard to give a one-size-fits-all answer for your situation, esp. since I believe you live in Deutschland, ja? Most of the people who participate on these boards live in the U.S.

You kind of put yourself out there, and you ended up with a lot of opinion. Everything you have here, except actual quotes from Church documents and Scripture, and Brother Rich’s faithful postings (even the very faithful and kind bear06), is opinion. Please do not take what well-meaning, but anonymous individuals say to you over what the diocese office has to offer. I did this when my ex-husband left me, assumed that what certain people said was the only truth, and not opinion of one person. It was wrong. I should have clarified with the authority of my diocese’s program. I know, I am an anonymous individual, too. But your diocese has the final authority. What have you got to lose if you call and just ask questions of them? They aren’t going to trace the call, come out to your house and yell at you.

If you are being injured in any way, esp. if your children are being injured, you should not leave yourself open to that injury. If that means getting out or getting a court order to keep your husband out of the family home, then that’s what you have to do. However, you can legally separate, and still do all you can to reach out to your spouse to attempt to repair the marriage. Maybe that’s the wakeup call your husband needs, maybe he’s looking for a reason to get a divorce. But you will probably feel better if you know you have tried everything before letting the ax fall.

There are a couple of canon lawyers on CAF who might be able to better direct you. Cameron Lansing is on top of all of this, and while he chops me to bits at times, he is a very good canon lawyer.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

rkberlin:

Peace to all of you!
Question: my dh and I are kind of separated ( he cheated on me a total of 3 times, the last time just 3 months ago, and said he wanted a divorce ). He’s about 7 hours away from here with his work, but we’re also pondering the thought of divorce ( well, he not so much anymore, but I can’t really trust him, can I ? ). I still attend mass regularly ( he’s not, hasn’t gone to confession yet, either, too busy, sick, whatever the excuse ) and I receive communion. Am I even allowed to? I didn’t break my vows, and I have no intention of meeting a new man. Just trying to raise my kids as good Christians right now. Is just the though of dissolving the marriage reason to be excluded from the sacraments? Well, mainly communion, obviously, I can always go to confession, I hope.
Please help and pray for us!

Most of the time Marriage is a very poorly understood Sacrament by most Catholics. The Church and sometimes parents really teach Reconciliation and Holy Communion and Confirmation. Baptism is usually this 2 hr mini-workshop and Marriage is usually maybe a total of 8 hr’s. Marriage should really be a series of weekly meetings over several months. The Church teaches that there are obligations to each other for life after the wedding. This is why the Church requires a spouse who is not able to remain living with the other to submit to the Bishop a request to separate. Because this is a failure in meeting the Marriage obligations. There needs to be pastoral and professional help for Marriages that are in trouble. In most cases it is not a do-it-yourself repair. Your question was not about what to do about the Marriage, but if your access to the Sacraments is effected by the situation. My answer is if you are the innocent spouse and have not contributed the the failure of the Marriage then the situation has no effect on your access to the Sacraments. You should seek pastoral council on this and you and your family should seek professional and pastoral help for the Marriage. This is my opinion.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

rkberlin:

whoa whoa, ok, thanks to everybody for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Now I’m confused. So, I guess I have to talk to the bishop and get the separation approved??? Then what, try and forgive dh again and again and again? Our priest from our last parish told me that Jesus talked about forgiving not once, but 70 times 7 times. Well, I guess then dh can keep on messing around and exposing the kids and me to more diseases? This isn’t very fair to the “innocent” spouse, is it? I’m not surprised that many people leave the church then…

This is indeed a difficult cross to bear. And yes, many simply disregard canon law and/or leave the church rather than bear their cross. That would be a tragic choice, however. You presumably married with Church permission, by Church authorities. For Catholics, marriage is a sacrament, a public sign of a sacred union. There are provisions for separation but if you intend to follow canon law, it states that the ecclesial authority are involved with separation for just cause, just as they were involved in your marital union.