Banning gays from Seminaries (as reported in the news)?

[Philthy]

verismo:

Here’s my answer, and where the Pope has spoken: I am silent.

Im with you…

Phil

 

[Coder]

Reducing the number is probably an excellent idea. This will likely attract more non-homosexuals to the priesthood. Also, when we have more masculine priests, I think the rebellion regarding women priests will be lessened.

 

[Contarini]

misterX:

wether they are practicing or not. Anyone who is homosexual, wether they be open about it or not, should be banned from the preisthood. A lot of people here seem to be missing the point it doesn’t matter if they are celibate.

Actually, if that’s what you really think then you are rather stunningly missing the point. Reread that sentence again and ask yourself in what way, shape or form it is Christian.

It doesn’t matter if they are virtuous or not? Keeping God’s laws doesn’t matter? Struggling heroically against temptation doesn’t matter? This is quite astounding, really.

What you will have is someone in authority in the church who will not be willing to preach against homosexuality as a sin.

How do you know this? Are you saying that priests never preach against sins by which they are tempted? If that’s the case, then the Catholic Church has horrendously wimpy priests, and banning priests of a homosexual orientation won’t help matters. In fact, I’d be a lot more worried about a priest who wouldn’t preach against gluttony or anger or regular old heterosexual lust, because those are sins by which I am tempted and I need to hear them preached against. What’s the point of priests ranting against sins that tempt neither them nor most of their parishioners?

And people must also remember that people not only sin with their actions but with their thoughts.

No one is forgetting this. But you can’t tell someone’s thoughts. So for purposes of priest selection it’s not very relevant. If someone appears to be living a chaste life, then they should be considered chaste. That’s how we approach heterosexual sin. Why should homosexuals be treated any differently?

So really the issue of wether or not that the homosexual priest is celibate or not, because he would still be living in sin.

How do you figure that? Why do you assume that a priest with homosexual tendencies would necessarily be indulging sexual fantasies? And why aren’t you concerned about all the heterosexual priests who are also indulging such fantasies?

It sounds as if you think real chastity is simply impossible–at least for persons with same-sex orientation. Now that, in my opinion, is genuine heresy.

Edwin

 

[AnnieD]

DavidFilmer:

The Church has *always *excluded those who have no intention of fulfilling their vows of celebacy (including 'practicing" homosexuals, as well as “practicing” hetrosexuals).

They sure haven’t done a very good job of excluding them. From what I’ve read, the homosexual Priests have a network, and those are the Priests who get advancement.


AnnieD

 

[Constantine312]

I’m gonna say what everyone else is afraid to… nobody wants those fags in our Church… good deal… keep them out…

 

[misterX]

Contarini:

Actually, if that’s what you really think then you are rather stunningly missing the point. Reread that sentence again and ask yourself in what way, shape or form it is Christian.
Edwin

following Gods laws isn’t being a Christian?

Contarini:

It doesn’t matter if they are virtuous or not? Keeping God’s laws doesn’t matter? Struggling heroically against temptation doesn’t matter? This is quite astounding, really.
Edwin

How is saying what God says is a sin, a sin. not keeping Gods laws?

Contarini:

What’s the point of priests ranting against sins that tempt neither them nor most of their parishioners?Edwin

Because preist are only human too, and what tempts them normaly tempts us. But the thing is a person knows gluttony is a sin, as well as anger and lust. But homosexuals don’t believe that what they are doing is a sin.

Contarini:

No one is forgetting this. But you can’t tell someone’s thoughts. So for purposes of priest selection it’s not very relevant. If someone appears to be living a chaste life, then they should be considered chaste. That’s how we approach heterosexual sin. Why should homosexuals be treated any differently? Edwin

Again wether they are chaste or not homosexuality is a sin just thinking it is a sin. I know what the early fathers said, but i also know what Jesus said. the later is more important and carries a lot more weight.

Contarini:

How do you figure that? Why do you assume that a priest with homosexual tendencies would necessarily be indulging sexual fantasies? And why aren’t you concerned about all the heterosexual priests who are also indulging such fantasies?
Edwin

Who says i don’t?

Contarini:

It sounds as if you think real chastity is simply impossible–at least for persons with same-sex orientation. Now that, in my opinion, is genuine heresy.
Edwin

Again with the chasity thing. It doesn’t matter wether or not the preist is chaste. Thinking it is a sin. Thinking its ok is a sin.

 

[ben_dy]

misterX:

And people must also remember that people not only sin with their actions but with their thoughts. So really the issue of wether or not that the homosexual priest is celibate or not, because he would still be living in sin.

I’m not sure that this statement, in itself, makes a good argument for banning homosexuals from the priesthood - remember that there are still a good number of heterosexual priests who remain true to their vow of celibacy yet still may sin - and be forgiven those sins - of “lust in the heart” for women. Chastity, for many, (and I’m not speaking of priests here) is difficult. Celibacy does not eliminate the normal heterosexual drive but is rather kept in check by the grace of God. I’ve had some long chats about this with my brother - a heterosexual priest - and he has always said that, for him, prayer and his schedule are just some of his ways of sticking to the rule of celibacy (although his golden anniversary is coming up and I suspect that, like myself, it has gotten much easier the older you get: we have many more conversations about regularity now than we do about celibacy).

Anyway my point is that even heterosexual celibate priests often sin - they are just far less likely to be overtaken by lust and carry out sexual abuse than homosexual men. Just as homosexual men are more likely (much, much more likely if the reports that I’ve read are correct) to “cheat” even when in a “committed relationship” (and that in itself has a variety of definitions!), they are more likely to ‘seduce’ adolescent boys - much more likely than a heterosexual priest is likely to seduce adolescent girls. It’s that type of sexual behavior that is more prevalent and that type of sexual behavior which this forthcoming discipline seeks to address, I think.

 

[ben_dy]

AnnieD:

They sure haven’t done a very good job of excluding them. From what I’ve read, the homosexual Priests have a network, and those are the Priests who get advancement.


AnnieD

Annie,

At this moment I think that the “lavender mafia” with it’s one-time godfather of Cardinal Bernadine is something of an urban legend. It may, after all the ‘guilty parties’ are deceased, prove to be true - and the reports that claim that 50-60% rather than 10-20% of the clergy are homosexual might, some day, be proven true as well.

Until that time, though, I think it best not to concentrate on what is legend, what is based on one or two alleged conversations or confessions, and deal with the real organizations that abound with priests who are openly homosexual and are involved in organizations that work towards the acceptance of openly homosexual priests like “DignityUSA” and the like. One of the reasons that I kind of doubt that a vast lavender mafia conspiracy ever existed (without doubting the possibility that there may have been several homosexual bishops and cardinals in the U.S. that may have ‘conspired’ amongst themselves) is that such a wide-ranging organization would make the “pro-homosexual” Catholic groups unnecessary.

So please don’t jump to conclusions about homosexual hierarchy conspiracies until there is some proof - it only serves to fuel the fire against those who don’t recognize that there exists good, solid, and heterosexual men in the priesthood and in the hierarchy of the Church.

 

[seagal]

**
Just a gentle reminder, as one Christian to another, that we are called to love one another. That means at the very least to be civil, if not tolerant of one another. We are all sinners.

To quote the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons**:
“10. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Originally posted by misterX

But homosexuals don’t believe that what they are doing is a sin.

That’s a gross generalization. “Some” homosexuals don’t believe what they’re doing is a sin. Some realize they are sinning and try to live a better life. Both of those statements would apply to each and every one of us, if we’re honest - whatever our sin.

 

[AnnieD]

ben_dy:

Annie,

At this moment I think that the “lavender mafia” with it’s one-time godfather of Cardinal Bernadine is something of an urban legend.

Ben, I was referring to the information in the book “Goodbye Good Men” which states that good heterosexual men were turned away from entering the Priesthood and that there was a network of homosexual priests that helped advance other homosexual Priests.

I talked to one man who left the seminary because of homosexuality, and he agreed with the above, so I don’t think it’s an urban legend.


AnnieD

 

[paul_barlow]

as a visitor from the lds church i can understand the popes view. but remember the saviour hates the sin not the sinner. i have met a few gay men and though i find there life style unplesant to say the least the people themselves are just like anybody else. please remember to love them thats the way you are going to help them remember who and what they are. you may be the person to save them from there sins. i know we have worked with some and it takes time and a lot of guts but the can overcome this problem

 

[TPJCatholic]

Question:

Should men be able to shower in a women’s locker room?

 

[fix]

TPJCatholic:

Question:

Should men be able to shower in a women’s locker room?

One gay seminarian in his 30’s responded that such reasoning was “ridiculous” and that he has lived harmoniously for four years with a group of mostly heterosexual seminarians.

“Homosexual men are socialized differently,” he said. "We have spent our whole lives living and working with other men. We’ve been on the same school teams, shared the same locker rooms, been in the same fraternities, and we are accustomed to being around people to whom we are attracted. To suggest that because one has a homosexual orientation one is unable to control one’s sexual impulses is, frankly, insulting.

nytimes.com/2005/09/23/national/23priests.html

So, according to this man, yes, men should shower with women because they are mature. Seems very well reasoned.:whacky::whacky:

 

[TPJCatholic]

fix,

So, what is your answer to my question?

Should men be able to shower in the womens locker room?

Should women be able to shower in mens lockers rooms?

Should a single man become roommates with a woman or vice versa?

 

[Legatus]

Again with the chasity thing. It doesn’t matter wether or not the preist is chaste. Thinking it is a sin. Thinking its ok is a sin.

You’re a bit confused Mister X. When we talk about a priest being chaste that includes in his thoughts. A person who fantasizes about sex is not chaste. A homosexual priest must be chaste in thought, word and deed. If he truly is chaste there is no reason why he can’t be a very good priest.

 

[fix]

TPJCatholic:

fix,

So, what is your answer to my question?

Should men be able to shower in the womens locker room?

Should women be able to shower in mens lockers rooms?

Should a single man become roommates with a woman or vice versa?

My answer is no. Only the modern, morally relativistic mind would conclude such things were good.

I quoted the article to show that the Church needs a good review of these seminaries. Can anyone really justify allowing “gay” men into the seminary at this point?

 

[sparkle]

DavidFilmer:

According to this article in the Washington Post, there are rumors that the Church will ban homosexuals from seminaries (and, thus, Ordination).

What do you think?

I think it’s a very good thing. They should be banned for many reasons.

 

[TPJCatholic]

fix,

I agree, they should not be allowed into seminaries…

 

[ben_dy]

AnnieD:

Ben, I was referring to the information in the book “Goodbye Good Men” which states that good heterosexual men were turned away from entering the Priesthood and that there was a network of homosexual priests that helped advance other homosexual Priests.

I talked to one man who left the seminary because of homosexuality, and he agreed with the above, so I don’t think it’s an urban legend.


AnnieD

Annie,

I think the situation, as it was and as it might be, was likely confined to particular diocese and diocesan seminaries. I know that it was said of Chicago - which is one reason I mentioned Bernadine - but my (definitely heterosexual) late son had no problems entering seminary in the late 1980’s and only told me of two of his fellows who “might” be homosexual (and I don’t recall exactly why he thought so save that they were effeminate - he wasn’t one to say with certainty that which he did not know).

Again, I don’t doubt that what your friend experienced is and was true of some seminarians and some of the hierarchy but, until proven otherwise, I’ll say that I’m positive that this was not the case at all seminaries and hope that it was not and does not prove to be the case of the majority.

 

[CanoeCamper55]

fix:

My answer is no. Only the modern, morally relativistic mind would conclude such things were good.

I quoted the article to show that the Church needs a good review of these seminaries. Can anyone really justify allowing “gay” men into the seminary at this point?

I agree. The American bishops invited the Vatican to do just that: The Vatican visitation team will be reviewing all American seminaries. I heard on Relevant Radio (820 AM Chicago) that there are 50-plus questions that will be given to professors and students. I don’t have the list of questions, but I’ll try to find it.