Baptism against your will

[Question123]

Let us we have a person, I’ll call him John Smith. John was an antiCatholic that despised all things Christian. Now another person, Peter Smith, decided that he was going to find a way to get John baptized. Long story short, Peter meets up with John and baptizes him completely against his will.

Would I be correct in saying that because John was validly baptized, even though it was illicit he received sanctifying grace?

 

[Sirach2]

Let us we have a person, I’ll call him John Smith. John was an antiCatholic that despised all things Christian. Now another person, Peter Smith, decided that he was going to find a way to get John baptized. Long story short, Peter meets up with John and baptizes him completely against his will.

Would I be correct in saying that because John was validly baptized, even though it was illicit he received sanctifying grace?

No, you would not be correct. One of the first things that the Church asks just prior to a baptism, is … “What do you ask of the Church?” Answer: Faith. If the person is against the faith, the prerequisite for the sacrament does not render it valid, since the person has freely, internally rejected it.

I don’t understand your purpose in questioning, since the one who performed the baptism would never have such audacity to force someone to receive it, IMO. Apparently, you are speaking of someone other than a priest. In that case, a lay person can only perform the baptism in an emergency situation of death.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

In the case of an infant, the parents speak for their child. In the case of a dying person, even though they may have expressed anti Christian sentiments, a person could conditionally baptize one who seems to be at death’s door if there is no time to call a priest, etc.

 

[Question123]

No, you would not be correct. One of the first things that the Church asks just prior to a baptism, is … “What do you ask of the Church?” Answer: Faith. If the person is against the faith, the prerequisite for the sacrament does not render it valid, since the person has freely, internally rejected it.

I don’t understand your purpose in questioning, since the one who performed the baptism would never have such audacity to force someone to receive it, IMO. Apparently, you are speaking of someone other than a priest. In that case, a lay person can only perform the baptism in an emergency situation of death.

It’s a totally hypothetical situation and I was curious what the answer would be.

 

[Bookcat]

It’s a totally hypothetical situation and I was curious what the answer would be.

Tis invalid.

Forced baptism (which is not to be done…) is invalid.

 

[Bookcat]

Let us we have a person, I’ll call him John Smith. John was an antiCatholic that despised all things Christian. Now another person, Peter Smith, decided that he was going to find a way to get John baptized. Long story short, Peter meets up with John and baptizes him completely against his will.

Would I be correct in saying that because John was validly baptized, even though it was illicit he received sanctifying grace?

Tis invalid.

Forced baptism (which is not to be done…) is invalid.

 

[Millie123]

In the case of a dying person, even though they may have expressed anti Christian sentiments, a person could conditionally baptize one who seems to be at death’s door if there is no time to call a priest, etc.

This sentence is a bit confusing to me. I was taught that to licitly baptize someone on their death bed that the dying person must have expressed a desire, even a very brief and remote desire to receive the sacrament, or live a Christian life, at some point during their life.

Canon Law States:
Canon 865 §2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

Let’s say you have a dying atheist, who has always spoken out against any belief in God and has never spoken of any desire to receive the sacrament of baptism or live a Christian life…then it would be illicit for us to baptize them, and we should not baptize them…Even if they are on their deathbed. At least that is what I’ve been told, and how I understand Canon Law 865.

 

[bisco]

john will still be able to make his way to hell, if he so desires.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
§2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

Canon Law

 

[Sirach2]

This is generally true, if the person is conscious and you have some awareness of their intent. But we may still baptize “conditionally” if the person is unconscious, and entrust them to God’s infinite mercy.

 

[Millie123]

This is generally true, if the person is conscious and you have some awareness of their intent. But we may still baptize “conditionally” if the person is unconscious, and entrust them to God’s infinite mercy.

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m having a challenge reconciling your point with Canon Law 865.2. Which the states that a dying person can be baptized if “the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.”

I think the sticking point for me is if a person has vehemently rejected God and his sacraments throughout their lives…and has not manifested an intention to receive baptism in any way…then how can we baptize that person unconsciously on their death bed? Wouldn’t that be baptizing them against their will

 

[Sirach2]

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m having a challenge reconciling your point with Canon Law 865.2. Which the states that a dying person can be baptized if “the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.”

I think the sticking point for me is if a person has vehemently rejected God and his sacraments throughout their lives…and has not manifested an intention to receive baptism in any way…then how can we baptize that person unconsciously on their death bed? Wouldn’t that be baptizing them against their will

Are you forgetting that I was referring to those who are unconscious, and not those you may know personally, who have rejected God repeatedly? If you happen someone in an accident and know nothing about the person, it is the utmost charity to baptize them if you do not know whether or not they have ever received the sacrament.

I also mention this beautiful paragraph in St. Faustina’s Diary that has been quoted often when Fr. Groeschel lived.
1698 I often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God’s mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious. God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things.

Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! But – horror! – there are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself……
We simply do not know what is taking place at the moment of death, and should always allow for God’s mercy, and baptize a dying person.

 

[Millie123]

Are you forgetting that I was referring to those who are unconscious, and not those you may know personally, who have rejected God repeatedly? If you happen someone in an accident and know nothing about the person, it is the utmost charity to baptize them if you do not know whether or not they have ever received the sacrament.

I also mention this beautiful paragraph in St. Faustina’s Diary that has been quoted often when Fr. Groeschel lived.
1698 I often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God’s mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious. God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things.

Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! But – horror! – there are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself……
We simply do not know what is taking place at the moment of death, and should always allow for God’s mercy, and baptize a dying person.

Sirach…Peace be with you…I do realize that you are speaking of unconscious people, and in my post I was also referring to unconscious people. And no I was not referring to people that I know personally.

I do have a fondness of Sister Faustina, but Her Diary and visions are a Private Devotion…and I am under no obligation to follow them.
In matters of faith and morals I am obligated to follow the Church, her teachings, the magisterium, and our Pope. Again, as lovely as Sister Faustina is I am under no obligation to follow her private devotion.

You say that we should “always” baptize a dying person…this statement is what is leading me into confusion…I do not see that in the teachings of the church. In fact Canon law 865.2 does not say that. Can you show me through the church where it is compulsory for us to baptize especially those who have lived their life without any manifestation to receive the sacraments? I just don’t see how that is not, baptizing them against their will.

For those who have lived their life in opposition to the sacraments, but again change their heart on their death bed while unconscious to receive baptism…We are still not to despair of their salvation. Their own desire for baptism, even if it is at the second of their death, through God’s mercy, they are baptized through the Baptism of desire.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Douay-Rheims Bible Mark 16:16
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned”

Hope that helps.

 

[Sirach2]

I see that there is more work to do. Please consider this excerpt from Newadvent.org.

This right of any person whatsoever to baptize in case of necessity is in accord with the constant tradition and practice of the Church. Tertullian ( 7On Baptism) says, speaking of laymen who have an opportunity to administer baptism: “He will be guilty of the loss of a soul, if he neglects to confer what he freely can,” St. Jerome ( 9Against the Luciferians): “In case of necessity, we know that it is also allowable for a layman [to baptize]; for as a person receives, so may he give,” The Fourth Council of the Lateran (cap. Firmiter) decrees: “The Sacrament of Baptism . . . no matter by whom conferred is available to salvation,” St. Isidore of Seville (can. Romanus de cons., iv) declares: “The Spirit of God administers the grace of baptism, although it be a pagan who does the baptizing,” Pope Nicholas I teaches the Bulgarians (Resp. 104) that baptism by a Jew or a pagan is valid.

Millie if this is not sufficient to dispel your doubts, then I suggest you contact your parish priest and ask him.

 

[Millie123]

I see that there is more work to do. Please consider this excerpt from Newadvent.org.

This right of any person whatsoever to baptize in case of necessity is in accord with the constant tradition and practice of the Church. Tertullian (On Baptism 7) says, speaking of laymen who have an opportunity to administer baptism: “He will be guilty of the loss of a soul, if he neglects to confer what he freely can,” St. Jerome (Against the Luciferians 9): “In case of necessity, we know that it is also allowable for a layman [to baptize]; for as a person receives, so may he give,” The Fourth Council of the Lateran (cap. Firmiter) decrees: “The Sacrament of Baptism . . . no matter by whom conferred is available to salvation,” St. Isidore of Seville (can. Romanus de cons., iv) declares: “The Spirit of God administers the grace of baptism, although it be a pagan who does the baptizing,” Pope Nicholas I teaches the Bulgarians (Resp. 104) that baptism by a Jew or a pagan is valid.

Millie if this is not sufficient to dispel your doubts, then I suggest you contact your parish priest and ask him.

I wholly and completely accept my obligation to baptize people for those who desire it in an emergency…what I’m stumbling with is the concept of forcing an unconscious person to receive baptism that is being offered to them who do not want it, and have never manifested any desire for it, again please see Canon 865.2. Would baptizing an unconscious person be licit, if that person has not manifested any remote desire in their life for the sacraments. Would baptizing that person be baptizing them against their will?

 

[Sirach2]

Millie

This has been Church teaching waaaaay back in the Baltimore Catechism, and I learned it as a kid years ago.

Q. 633. Who can administer Baptism?
A. A priest is the ordinary minister of baptism; but in case of necessity anyone who has the use of reason may baptize.

Q. 634. What do we mean by the “ordinary minister” of a Sacrament?
A. By the “ordinary minister” of a Sacrament we mean the one who usually does administer the Sacrament, and who has always the right to do so.

Q. 635. Can a person who has not himself been baptized, and who does not even believe in the Sacrament of baptism, give it validly to another in case of necessity?
A. A person who has not himself been baptized, and who does not even believe in the Sacrament of baptism, can give it validly to another in case of necessity, provided:

1. He has the use of reason;
2. Knows how to give baptism, and
3. Intends to do what the Church intends in the giving of the Sacrament.
   Baptism is so necessary that God affords every opportunity for its reception.

 

[Sirach2]

I wholly and completely accept my obligation to baptize people for those who desire it in an emergency…what I’m stumbling with is the concept of forcing an unconscious person to receive baptism that is being offered to them who do not want it, and have never manifested any desire for it, again please see Canon 865.2. Would baptizing an unconscious person be licit, if that person has not manifested any remote desire in their life for the sacraments. Would baptizing that person be baptizing them against their will?

I believe their salvation is more important than worrying about whether or not they desire it properly. If they are not manifesting any formal desire for baptism, nor outright refusing it, then just act accordingly, trusting that if they die, you have done the Father’s will.

I’m no theologian, outside of knowing basic church teaching as was taught to me, and it is not my desire to maintain a long discussion over probabilities such as this. Please ask your pastor to instruct you.

 

[Millie123]

Millie

This has been Church teaching waaaaay back in the Baltimore Catechism, and I learned it as a kid years ago.

Q. 633. Who can administer Baptism?
A. A priest is the ordinary minister of baptism; but in case of necessity anyone who has the use of reason may baptize.

Q. 634. What do we mean by the “ordinary minister” of a Sacrament?
A. By the “ordinary minister” of a Sacrament we mean the one who usually does administer the Sacrament, and who has always the right to do so.

Q. 635. Can a person who has not himself been baptized, and who does not even believe in the Sacrament of baptism, give it validly to another in case of necessity?
A. A person who has not himself been baptized, and who does not even believe in the Sacrament of baptism, can give it validly to another in case of necessity, provided:

1. He has the use of reason;
2. Knows how to give baptism, and
3. Intends to do what the Church intends in the giving of the Sacrament.
   Baptism is so necessary that God affords every opportunity for its reception.

Thank you for showing that Sirach. I had learned this teaching also from the days in my youth when I was catechized. Nor do I doubt the necessity of Baptism for salvation…I wholly accept it.

However, the church does not force Baptism on adults who have not manifested a desire for baptism even on their death bed. However, we are still not to despair for the salvation of these people…even if they have not manifested a desire for baptism while conscious during this life…Through God’s mercy if they desire baptism even if it is at the second of their death, God will grace them with this sacrament through the Baptism of Desire.

 

[Sirach2]

However, the church does not force Baptism on adults who have not manifested a desire for baptism even on their death bed. However, we are still not to despair for the salvation of these people…even if they have not manifested a desire for baptism while conscious during this life…Through God’s mercy if they desire baptism even if it is at the second of their death, God will grace them with this sacrament through the Baptism of Desire.

That is your understanding, but it may not be the actual teaching of the Church. If a person is on their death bed and unconscious, there is no probability whatsoever that they will formulate in their unconscious state, a baptism of* desire*. So you would be negligent in holding back baptism from them, all in the name of supposedly not “forcing their will.”

I caution readers not to accept this viewpoint at face value without checking with your pastor.