Baptism against your will

[Millie123]

That is your understanding, but it may not be the actual teaching of the Church. If a person is on their death bed and unconscious, there is no probability whatsoever that they will formulate in their unconscious state, a baptism of* desire*. So you would be negligent in holding back baptism from them, all in the name of supposedly not “forcing their will.”

I caution readers not to accept this viewpoint at face value without checking with your pastor.

What is your understanding of Canon Law 865.2

865.2 An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.

 

[HelenRose]

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I’m having a challenge reconciling your point with Canon Law 865.2. Which the states that a dying person can be baptized if “the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.”

I think the sticking point for me is if a person has vehemently rejected God and his sacraments throughout their lives…and has not manifested an intention to receive baptism in any way…then how can we baptize that person unconsciously on their death bed? Wouldn’t that be baptizing them against their will

If someone had the arrogance to pour water over the head of an dying individual known to not want to be baptized and say, “I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.” I would worry more about his or her soul than I would the dying individual.

The actions are meaningless without the participation and free will of the person involved. I would simply pray for his or her soul and trust in God’s Mercy. We can not presume state of and grace of another person’s soul.

 

[Millie123]

If someone had the arrogance to pour water over the head of an dying individual known to not want to be baptized and say, “I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.” I would worry more about his or her soul than I would the dying individual.

The actions are meaningless without the participation and free will of the person involved. I would simply pray for his or her soul and trust in God’s Mercy. We can not presume state of and grace of another person’s soul.

I completely agree Helen

 

[Sirach2]

How do you interpret Canon Law 868?

Can. 868 §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

If it is lawful to baptize against the parents’ will, then I would say it is lawful and necessary to baptize, even if the adult person formerly maintained an agnostic spirit . The likelihood of this ever happening is so remote that I question why we are even discussing this. The possibility of baptism of desire is not a guarantee whatsoever, and should not be relied upon.

 

[Millie123]

How do you interpret Canon Law 868?

Can. 868 §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

If it is lawful to baptize against the parents’ will, then I would say it is lawful and necessary to baptize, even if the adult person formerly maintained an agnostic spirit . The likelihood of this ever happening is so remote that I question why we are even discussing this. The possibility of baptism of desire is not a guarantee whatsoever, and should not be relied upon.

You’re comparing apples and oranges. A dying newborn baby has no faith, has no ability at that moment to obtain faith. They are innocent.

The hypothetical atheist has had the opportunity to develop a faith in God and refuses it. And has never manifested any remote interest in the church… Do we wait for them to loose consciousness for us to exert our will on them?

This example is not so remote. I worked as an ICU nurse for over 8 years. I’ve been at the bedside of numerous dying people. There have been many who I’ve prayed with (Yes, I have prayed with my patients). While there were a couple who were firm atheists and had remained staunch in their atheism even on their death bed, no profound conversion there, and yet I remain hopeful for their salvation.
Me: Is there a priest or pastor you would like us to call for you?
Them: No
Me: Would you like to talk to our chaplain?
Them: No
Me: Would you like to say some prayers?
Them: No, I’m atheist, I don’t believe in God.

What are we supposed to do when these people loose consciousness? Baptize them? When they have not manifested any desire for spirituality? Their free will matters, their consent matters. Which is why the church states that to baptized on the death bed the person needs to have a manifest of a desire for the sacrament of baptism and to live a christian life. Otherwise to baptize them against their will, is to just exert my will over theirs.

 

[Elizium23]

This is generally true, if the person is conscious and you have some awareness of their intent. But we may still baptize “conditionally” if the person is unconscious, and entrust them to God’s infinite mercy.

Wrong. A conditional baptism is for those whose baptismal status is in doubt. For instance, a member of another ecclesial community which kept no documentation and which may or may not have used the Trinitarian formula pronounced over the subject. A conditional baptism is NOT for someone who “may or may not” want to be baptized. The correct course of action for someone whose desire is doubtful is not baptizing at all.

 

[CB_Catholic]

When I worked as an RN in the ICU there was a woman who had a stroke and was completely unconscious. Her sister, who was not Catholic, approached me to contact the hospital priest requesting that her sister be baptized. Father then questioned the sister to ascertain whether the woman had ever expressed a desire for Baptism. The woman said that she had many times expressed the desire to be baptized in the Catholic Church, but because of disability had not gotten around to it before she had the stroke. Father said that he would baptize her because she had expressed a desire for Baptism, and he did.

It seemed important to Father that this woman had expressed this desire before he would administer the Sacrament.

 

[Sirach2]

Well, I had been so thoroughly taught by the nuns in Catholic school that we ought never to miss an opportunity to baptize in case of death. I guess I need to eat humble pie, since I had sent this question to “Ask An Apologist” and Father agreed with all of you. I am glad to have this straightened out once and for all.