Baptism and children murdered by abortion

[clem456]

Amen!Since the Pope is infallible re manners of faith and morals I believe this too,this is my hope for my baby Anne Catherine and all babies lost to abortion.

And my John Thomas as well.
My confessor did something in the confessional that was probably outside of orthodoxy. He had me pick a name for my child and he then recited the words of baptism. Until that time I had gone to confession twice before for the same sin, and my confessions were focused on alleviating my own guilt. But…

Healing from abortion requires the complete acceptance of what really occurred, and acceptance of the awe-ful responsibility one bears to another human being. Just as it was easy to discard a human life through abortion, it was easy for me to look for healing by trying to alleviate my own guilt. There is a huge burden that is really hard to swallow…I helped kill a human being with cruelty and neglect toward the child and it’s mother. The failure to identify with my own child and face up to my responsibility kept me from healing. It’s an awful burden, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but if you are trying to heal, it’s the only way. It’s a blessing to be crushed with the realization of what you did.

Knowing that God has lifted my child up and cared for him when I refused to is a huge comfort, and this is where my comfort came from in the end, not from relief of guilt. My child lives fully with God, God’s love for him cannot be taken away no matter how negelectful his mother and I were.

 

[clem456]

Since the waters of baptism are not on their own inherently special but rather used by God as the means to regenerate souls, and God can use whatever means he pleases to regenerate souls may God have regenerated children murdered by abortion by some other means and saved them, being that they would have never had a chance to get baptized?

Yes it is possible.
God does what he wills, when he wills it, how he wills it, in ways we will never understand.

And if we are going to employ human reason to try and understand this issue, the unavoidable question is, why would God NOT save these children who die before the age of consent?

 

[TheDoctor]

Amen!Since the Pope is infallible re manners of faith and morals I believe this too,this is my hope for my baby Anne Catherine and all babies lost to abortion.

And my John Thomas as well.
My confessor did something in the confessional that was probably outside of orthodoxy. He had me pick a name for my child and he then recited the words of baptism. Until that time I had gone to confession twice before for the same sin, and my confessions were focused on alleviating my own guilt. But…

Healing from abortion requires the complete acceptance of what really occurred, and acceptance of the awe-ful responsibility one bears to another human being. Just as it was easy to discard a human life through abortion, it was easy for me to look for healing by trying to alleviate my own guilt. There is a huge burden that is really hard to swallow…I helped kill a human being with cruelty and neglect toward the child and it’s mother. The failure to identify with my own child and face up to my responsibility kept me from healing. It’s an awful burden, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but if you are trying to heal, it’s the only way. It’s a blessing to be crushed with the realization of what you did.

Knowing that God has lifted my child up and cared for him when I refused to is a huge comfort, and this is where my comfort came from in the end, not from relief of guilt. My child lives fully with God, God’s love for him cannot be taken away no matter how negelectful his mother and I were.

Amen. Sometimes as we discuss and debate these theological issues we forget the pain of those who have been touched by this loss. If I may, I will put Anne Catherine and John Thomas in my prayers this evening.

 

[ellzeena]

God can work outside of the Sacraments. That said, no soul is innocent. We are born with original sin. Original sin is the sin of being turned away from God. Only the Mother of God was born without original sin.

God can WORK outside of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church! If I remember correctly (and I should, seeing as how I’ve read through the entire Bible three times at least), Jesus was disgusted with the rules and regulations of Man which contradicted the intention of God. Was He not? God can do anything He chooses, including ignore the Roman Catholic church. NO loving and merciful creator, let alone the God I know as best I can as a Human, would deliberately create a soul that He foreknew would be aborted and then send that soul to “limbo” (which I’ve already pointed out means “on the shelf”, not what we were taught in school). What kind of “god” would that be? Someone to fear, that’s what. And we know where fear comes from if we read the New Testament. Sorry, won’t ever agree with anyone who limits God’s ability to do what He does and cannot possibly be understood by his creation.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Amen. Sometimes as we discuss and debate these theological issues we forget the pain of those who have been touched by this loss. If I may, I will put Anne Catherine and John Thomas in my prayers this evening.

Thank you!

 

[salusanimarum17]

God can WORK outside of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church! If I remember correctly (and I should, seeing as how I’ve read through the entire Bible three times at least), Jesus was disgusted with the rules and regulations of Man which contradicted the intention of God. Was He not? God can do anything He chooses, including ignore the Roman Catholic church. …

I don’t know why you feel the need to set up some sort of conflict between the Lord and His body, the Church. The Lord Jesus is the one who said “unless you are born of water and spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). That is not a “rule and regulation of Man” but must, somehow, (since He said it) reflect the intention of God. The Church has spent thousands of years considering this rather blunt statement and the fate of infants who were not born again.

The current “solution” which is contained in the Catechism (quoted earlier) is as good as any. (I think it’s the best we can do, actually.)

 

[ellzeena]

I don’t know why you feel the need to set up some sort of conflict between the Lord and His body, the Church. The Lord Jesus is the one who said “unless you are born of water and spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). That is not a “rule and regulation of Man” but must, somehow, (since He said it) reflect the intention of God. The Church has spent thousands of years considering this rather blunt statement and the fate of infants who were not born again.

The current “solution” which is contained in the Catechism (quoted earlier) is as good as any. (I think it’s the best we can do, actually.)

“Set up some sort of conflict between the Lord and His body, the Church…”

Jesus was a Rabbi. He was an “Orthodox” (if you will) Jew. That was God’s “church” at the time. He instructed those who led that “church”, the Pharisees and Sadducees, quite often in fact, that they were “vipers”, “hypocrites”, did not practice what they preached, taught tradition rather than the will of God. Sound familiar? It is not the CHURCH whom we follow, it is the Lord Jesus Christ. To follow men is folly, it is the road to perdition. Think of what Benedict XVI said when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, he stated that the Holy Spirit was not “always in control” at the conclave of Cardinals because men have free will and are fallible. ??? Get it?

As for “born again of water and Spirit”…the water that came from the side piercing of Jesus on the cross is “the water”. The Spirit is within all creation, it is the breath of God and His will for things to be in existence. We accept it, unknowingly I might add, at Baptism in infancy but that does not insure our salvation. Those who are unable to be so baptized are still filled with the breath of God, the link between life and God the Creator of life. It is not the sprinkling of water upon the brow of a newborn that brings salvation; it is the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross IN OUR PLACE, He who defeated death. If baptism is all it takes to spare an innocent soul from “limbo” (a ridiculous thing to even consider, given what has been revealed about the nature of this doctrine) = then why not baptize the aborted “tissue” and bodies of murdered babies in utero? That would solve the whole thing! Not.

 

[Rosebud77]

Did women HAVE abortions before Christ’s resurrection???

I think it absolutely impossible that a loving and merciful God would allow the soul of an innocent not yet born to go anywhere but back to Him. Just unthinkable.

Woemn have always aborted babies. Even more when there was no artificial contraception. A baby was after all a witness to their sin and in days past more morally criticised.

In every culture and every land. Herbs, and wise women skilled in such thngs.

 

[devoutchristian]

We know what God requires for salvation. **God can work outside of his revealed way of salvation. **However, we must live according to what God has revealed and not presume salvation for those who have not attained it according to God’s revelation.

This.

Limbo was debunked.

No it wasn’t.

No God I know would take an unborn, innocent soul and subject it to separation from Him

I smell pelaiganism.

since God has FOREKNOWLEDGE and that would mean He deliberately created this soul only to torment it.

Limbo is not a place of torment.

My confessor did something in the confessional that was probably outside of orthodoxy. He had me pick a name for my child and he then recited the words of baptism.

You’re right, that was very heterodox.

God can WORK outside of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church! If I remember correctly (and I should, seeing as how I’ve read through the entire Bible three times at least), Jesus was disgusted with the rules and regulations of Man which contradicted the intention of God. Was He not? God can do anything He chooses, including ignore the Roman Catholic church. NO loving and merciful creator, let alone the God I know as best I can as a Human, would deliberately create a soul that He foreknew would be aborted and then send that soul to “limbo” (which I’ve already pointed out means “on the shelf”, not what we were taught in school). What kind of “god” would that be? Someone to fear, that’s what. And we know where fear comes from if we read the New Testament. Sorry, won’t ever agree with anyone who limits God’s ability to do what He does and cannot possibly be understood by his creation.

Why do you claim to be Catholic if you think that Catholics are Pharisees.

 

[wxornot]

This.

No it wasn’t.

I smell pelaiganism.

Limbo is not a place of torment.

You’re right, that was very heterodox.

Why do you claim to be Catholic if you think that Catholics are Pharisees.

I don’t think she said Catholics are pharisees. I think her point is that God can do what He wills. The CCC implies that by saying that aborted babies may be in heaven. Not only that…but the Church says that non-Christians may be in heaven. So why non-Christians and not babies murdered before baptism?

 

[devoutchristian]

I don’t think she said Catholics are pharisees. I think her point is that God can do what He wills.

She equated the Church with the Jewish Pharisees. As if the former had no more authority than the latter.

The CCC implies that by saying that aborted babies may be in heaven. Not only that…but the Church says that non-Christians may be in heaven. So why non-Christians and not babies murdered before baptism?

I don’t disagree. I merely disagree with the pelagain notion that God owes salvation to people and that if he doesn’t give it to them then he’s not good.

 

[Robertanthony]

I’ll add… Martyrdom is baptism of blood as a witness to Christ. There is baptism of water, baptism of blood (martyrdom), and baptism of desire.

We know what God requires for salvation. **God can work outside of his revealed way of salvation. **However, we must live according to what God has revealed and not presume salvation for those who have not attained it according to God’s revelation.

‎"Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." - The Holy Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 6 (July 6, 1439)

The Catholic Church is a Tower of Babel: how can they say “we entrust the souls of aborted foetuses to the mercy of God” when it was infallibly stated that “those who depart this life in original sin alone go down straightaway to hell”. Awaiting a contrived explanation. If aborted babies do go to hell, then God is a heartless tyrant.