Baptism and faith

[jacobaer]

I am on the RCIA team in my parish. We have a Jewish woman who believes in Jesus as her Messiah and wants to be baptized and join the Church.

She is already a Christian. She already has faith in Jesus as her Savior. She is already witnessing to others and trying to bring people into the Church.

And we have fellowship in the Spirit when we talk, that is, I know that I am talking with my sister in Christ.

Here is my question.

What will she receive when she is baptized that she doesn’t already possess in the Lord?

I know that her baptism will be a second conversion for her and she will receive the forgiveness of her sins from the time of her first conversion (when she first came to faith in Christ and turned to the Lord) up to the time of her baptism.

I believe she already has the Holy Spirit because how else could she have faith.

And when she is confirmed, she will be strengthened in the Spirit.

Do you see what I am getting at? As Catholics, we talk about baptism as the beginning of our Christian journey. But for adult converts who have never been baptized, they come to faith first, before they are baptized.

Here is my second question.

Is it correct to say that an adult convert who has never been baptized receives the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit at their initial turning to the Lord?

Thanks,
Gene

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am on the RCIA team in my parish. We have a Jewish woman who believes in Jesus as her Messiah and wants to be baptized and join the Church.

She is already a Christian. She already has faith in Jesus as her Savior. She is already witnessing to others and trying to bring people into the Church.

And we have fellowship in the Spirit when we talk, that is, I know that I am talking with my sister in Christ.

Here is my question.

What will she receive when she is baptized that she doesn’t already possess in the Lord?

I know that her baptism will be a second conversion for her and she will receive the forgiveness of her sins from the time of her first conversion (when she first came to faith in Christ and turned to the Lord) up to the time of her baptism.

I believe she already has the Holy Spirit because how else could she have faith.

And when she is confirmed, she will be strengthened in the Spirit.

Do you see what I am getting at? As Catholics, we talk about baptism as the beginning of our Christian journey. But for adult converts who have never been baptized, they come to faith first, before they are baptized.

Here is my second question.

Is it correct to say that an adult convert who has never been baptized receives the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit at their initial turning to the Lord?

Thanks,
Gene

She would not be a Christian if she is not validly Baptized. One becomes a Christian and member of Christ’s Mystical Body through valid Baptism.

#2 If they die before be able to receive Baptism. It is possible that their sins are forgiven and they could receive Baptism of Desire. Otherwise their sins are forgiven when they receive a valid Sacramental Baptism.

An adult receives Actual Grace to draw them to Christ before Baptism. Without valid Baptism they do not receive any other Grace because of Original Sin.

 

[Orionthehunter]

She would not be a Christian if she is not validly Baptized. One becomes a Christian and member of Christ’s Mystical Body through valid Baptism.

#2 If they die before be able to receive Baptism. It is possible that their sins are forgiven and they could receive Baptism of Desire. Otherwise their sins are forgiven when they receive a valid Sacramental Baptism.

An adult receives Actual Grace to draw them to Christ before Baptism. Without valid Baptism they do not receive any other Grace because of Original Sin.

To supplement Brother Rich’s succinct and good post, I think the issue here is the false teachiing that an altar call is anything more than symbolic. Scripture is quite clear that Baptism is necessary and important and it is not merely symbolism. While there are many other ways that God may (the operable word is may) forgive us our sins, we are promised directly by Christ such we can have absolute assurance we are absolved of the eternal consequences of our sins and that is at Baptism and when we make a good Confession. The rest is maybe.

Brother Rich is exactly correct regarding Baptism by Desire. It is possible and that is a possibility that way to many people are betting on. If they are wrong, the consequences are most dire.

 

[Pax]

There is a certain parallel in baptism to marriage. God quickens us and brings us to faith. Likewise, God brings a man and a woman together for matrimony. In the case of baptism, an adult must be predisposed in faith to be baptized or there is no point in joining the Christian family of believers through baptism. Likewise in marriage, a couple must first love one another in order to be predisposed to tie the knot and become a human family.

A person’s faith is not complete unless they believe and accept all that Jesus taught. Baptism is part of that package. Likewise, a couples love for one another is not complete and their love is not that of husband and wife until they marry and finally consumate their union. The wholeness and completeness of something does not exist without all of the parts.

I hope this helps.

 

[jacobaer]

Acts 10: 44-47
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Here is commentary on this passage from Fr. George Haydock:

Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter’s preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified.

From the Catechism.

1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

ME: An adult hears the proclamation of the Word and accepts the Gospel. Their journey of faith, conversion, has begun.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

ME: Question: What happens to the unbaptized person who hears the proclamation of the Word, accepts the Gospel, believes in Christ and turns to God and away from sin?

1236 The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, which is inseparable from Baptism. Indeed Baptism is “the sacrament of faith” in a particular way, since it is the sacramental entry into the life of faith.

ME: The Catechism says repeatedly that faith AND baptism are necessary. Here faith is linked to baptism…inseparably.

1248 The catechumenate, or formation of catechumens, aims at bringing their conversion and faith to maturity, in response to the divine initiative and in union with an ecclesial community. The catechumenate is to be “a formation in the whole Christian life . . . during which the disciples will be joined to Christ their teacher. The catechumens should be properly initiated into the mystery of salvation and the practice of the evangelical virtues, and they should be introduced into the life of faith, liturgy, and charity of the People of God by successive sacred rites.”

1249 Catechumens “are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity.” “With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own.”

ME: So a catechumen is already joined to the Church. Is not the Church the Body of Christ? Is the catechumen united with Christ? How can they live a life of “faith, hope, and charity” apart from the Holy Spirit in them?

What do you think?
Gene

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

When reading this about Catechumens. To be a Catechumen a person must go through the Rite of Acceptance which is a ritual where they, within the community of Christians, make a public statement of faith and their intention to seek Baptism.

After the Rite of Acceptance their position in relation to the Church is changed.

 

[Elzee]

There is a certain parallel in baptism to marriage. God quickens us and brings us to faith. Likewise, God brings a man and a woman together for matrimony. In the case of baptism, an adult must be predisposed in faith to be baptized or there is no point in joining the Christian family of believers through baptism. Likewise in marriage, a couple must first love one another in order to be predisposed to tie the knot and become a human family.

A person’s faith is not complete unless they believe and accept all that Jesus taught. Baptism is part of that package. Likewise, a couples love for one another is not complete and their love is not that of husband and wife until they marry and finally consumate their union. The wholeness and completeness of something does not exist without all of the parts.

I hope this helps.

Pax, I’ve never heard this explained better. Thank you.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Baptism and Penance are called “sacraments of the dead”, because they give life, through sanctifying grace then called “first grace”, to those who are spiritually dead by reason of original or actual sin. The other five are “sacraments of the living”, because their reception presupposes, at least ordinarily, that the recipient is in the state of grace, and they give “second grace”, i.e. increase of sanctifying grace. Nevertheless, since the sacraments always give some grace when there is no obstacle in the recipient, it may happen in cases explained by theologians that “second grace” is conferred by a sacrament of the dead, e.g. when one has only venial sins to confess receives absolution and that “first grace” is conferred by a sacrament of the living -http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

 

[teachccd]

1249 Catechumens “are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity.” “With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own.”

ME: So a catechumen is already joined to the Church. Is not the Church the Body of Christ? Is the catechumen united with Christ? How can they live a life of “faith, hope, and charity” apart from the Holy Spirit in them?

What do you think?
Gene

If a catechumen were to die prior to receiving the sacrament of Baptism he/she would have been joined to the Church by their desire.(Baptism of Desire) So yes as far as their faith journey utilizes the actual graces needed to support this desire they are embraced by the Church, the Body of Christ. However, this does not negate the command of Christ that we are to be born again of “water and spirit”. John 3:5 Also see Titus 3:5 Faith obviously plays a great role in that the grace that provides us with the gift of faith is what we accept when we decide to either extend it to our infant children or utilize it for ourselves.