Baptism and Jesus

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I just got done reading an advertisement for a Bible study class. Partaking in a Bible study class is a great thing, don’t get me wrong. Yet, there are dangers with Bible education. One danger is that if you learn one parable, or phrase as being such and such, you may make the mistake of thinking that you are finished learning it. You won’t need to think about that particular place in the Bible anymore because you’ve mastered that whole concept. But really, have you? The danger isn’t so much arrogance, although sometimes being educated can lead to being arrogant. The danger is that you’ve become just comfortable with knowing what you think is the way things are supposed to be and therefore, aren’t open to the voice of the Spirit when He speaks to you through the Word. Yes, sometimes learning makes a person stop asking questions. And when you stop asking questions, you are prone to the second danger–that of self-reliance.

The Bible Class advertisement used the Sunday reading from Oct 12th, Matthew 22, the long version. The ad said, something to the effect, that if you want to know why the king cast out the guest who wasn’t wearing his wedding garment, come and join the class. Well, I’m not entirely sure, but I can bet the answer will be given as a simple one word answer to newbie attendees when they show up. Not that this is entirely wrong, because maybe a newbie couldn’t handle a more thorough answer. A good thorough answer, though, should consist of many answers depending on where a person is in their faith life. Like what has been going on here. For instance, to me the answer to the king question wasn’t the canned answer that a traditional Catholic Bible commentary gives. For me, I’m personally struggling with unforgiveness. The answer, then (to the kind question), is
that the wedding garment symbolizes my forgiveness of what other people have done to me. By not forgiving, I’m not putting on a wedding garment and risk being cast out. By next reading time, hopefully after I have been able to forgive and have gotten over that hump, the wedding garment may symbolize something totally different. If the answer is the same, then I maybe I haven’t grown in my life.

If you have been reading the lectures given at the Synod on God’s
Word that have been going on all this past October, you’d be amazed at how attentive the attendees are to this multiple concept, multiple level, dynamic characteristic of the Word. From a spectator’s opinion, I think that the example set this past month is overwhelmingly beautiful. Words can’t express how enriching this has been for the whole Universal Christian Church. It has been time very well spent and will bear much fruit.

It is also a blessing that there is a place on the internet that is sensitive to the dynamic nature of God Himself, His Word, His Spirit, His World…This has been time well spent. Thank you for sharing not just with the poster, but with me too.
 
LMP said:
I just got done reading an advertisement for a Bible study class. Partaking in a Bible study class is a great thing, don’t get me wrong. Yet, there are dangers with Bible education. One danger is that if you learn one parable, or phrase as being such and such, you may make the mistake of thinking that you are finished learning it. You won’t need to think about that particular place in the Bible anymore because you’ve mastered that whole concept. But really, have you? The danger isn’t so much arrogance, although sometimes being educated can lead to being arrogant. The danger is that you’ve become just comfortable with knowing what you think is the way things are supposed to be and therefore, aren’t open to the voice of the Spirit when He speaks to you through the Word. Yes, sometimes learning makes a person stop asking questions. And when you stop asking questions, you are prone to the second danger–that of self-reliance.

The Bible Class advertisement used the Sunday reading from Oct 12th, Matthew 22, the long version. The ad said, something to the effect, that if you want to know why the king cast out the guest who wasn’t wearing his wedding garment, come and join the class. Well, I’m not entirely sure, but I can bet the answer will be given as a simple one word answer to newbie attendees when they show up. Not that this is entirely wrong, because maybe a newbie couldn’t handle a more thorough answer. A good thorough answer, though, should consist of many answers depending on where a person is in their faith life. Like what has been going on here. For instance, to me the answer to the king question wasn’t the canned answer that a traditional Catholic Bible commentary gives. For me, I’m personally struggling with unforgiveness. The answer, then (to the kind question), is
that the wedding garment symbolizes my forgiveness of what other people have done to me. By not forgiving, I’m not putting on a wedding garment and risk being cast out. By next reading time, hopefully after I have been able to forgive and have gotten over that hump, the wedding garment may symbolize something totally different. If the answer is the same, then I maybe I haven’t grown in my life.

If you have been reading the lectures given at the Synod on God’s
Word that have been going on all this past October, you’d be amazed at how attentive the attendees are to this multiple concept, multiple level, dynamic characteristic of the Word. From a spectator’s opinion, I think that the example set this past month is overwhelmingly beautiful. Words can’t express how enriching this has been for the whole Universal Christian Church. It has been time very well spent and will bear much fruit.

It is also a blessing that there is a place on the internet that is sensitive to the dynamic nature of God Himself, His Word, His Spirit, His World…This has been time well spent. Thank you for sharing not just with the poster, but with me too.
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I agree with you on the fact that we never “know” the word of God or what passages mean. The reason the Bible is called the living word of God is because we never stop learning. The Lord gives us messages through his word every time we study his word.
And yes it depends on where you are in your relationship with Him. And attending bible study classes doesn’t make you know what something means. We have to consider the teacher as someone who is sharing their experience with the word of God.
I am in the middle of a bible study called “Walking by Faith” by a lady who has been blind since she was 15 yrs old. She has learned to trust the Lord in ways we might take for granted.
She makes good points but I will not leave that class believing that what she learned is the same lesson the Lord has for me.
Jesus is Lord and I thank Him for loving me so much that he takes the time to speak to me and teach me his ways.
The lesson on forgiveness is one I have learned too. And am also struggling with. Thank God he is patient.
 
Ruthie said:
There is Biblical evidence for infant baptism, but it is indirect.

There are several places where someone is baptized with their whole household. A household then was much bigger than it is today in America. Back then it included the extended family, and servants. Children, when they married, would stay part of the household.

So a household was large, and multi-generational. It is very likely that an infant or two would be included.

But the real origin of infant baptism lies in its necessity for salvation, and its removal of the stain of original sin. What parent would want to risk their child’s missing out on Heaven? This has been a very real worry for parents during most of the history of Christianity. It is only recently that infant mortality has been reduced to the point that most babies live to grow up; before that, most families lost at least one child to common diseases such as whooping cough. There are still many places where infant mortality is very high.

Jesus’ words, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” can be interpreted two ways. One is that He will not refuse an unbaptized child Heaven - but the other is that we have the responsibility to get them there: “do not hinder them.”

I believe both. I would not want to stand in front of Jesus and have Him ask me why I gambled with my child’s salvation!

Your sister in Christ,

Ruthie
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A very good answer, in my opinion :).

There have been lots of really good answers here 🙂 :).
 
Acts 16:31 “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be SAVED, and thy house.”
This is what Paul and Silas told the prison guard when he asked,What must I do to be saved.
Yet I don’t know any church that preaches that if one family member “believes in the Lord Jesus Christ” the rest of the family is automatically saved.
Acts 16:15
“And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.”
So if this means infants should be baptized then why not say the whole family is saved if one person in the family believes.
 
hays1122 said:
Acts 16:31 “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be SAVED, and thy house.”
This is what Paul and Silas told the prison guard when he asked,What must I do to be saved.
Yet I don’t know any church that preaches that if one family member “believes in the Lord Jesus Christ” the rest of the family is automatically saved.
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What about passover? The blood of the Lamb was on the doorway into the home. The angels passed over that house. All inside were saved, especially the first born males.
 
LMP said:
What about passover? The blood of the Lamb was on the doorway into the home. The angels passed over that house. All inside were saved, especially the first born males.
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Good point.
The blood of the lamb was shed to save those who put the blood on the doorway. They believed what they were told and were saved because they followed the Lord’s instructions.
Jesus shed his blood on the cross for our sins. And anyone who believes will be saved.
Ephesians 1:7,
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace”
John 8:24,
“Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.”
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
So there is no “Thou shalt be…Catholic” or “Protestant”,
there is only the belief that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.
John 14:6.
“Jesus said to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.”
 
Ah, but, Hays,

Yes, there are many verses we can pull out of the NT that say, “believe and you will be saved.”

But how do we incorporate those with the ones that say we have to do more?

I’d say we need to do everything we’re told, not just rely on the ones we like.

Here are a few:

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21 (RSV)
If you would enter life, keep the commandments. Matt 19:17 (RSV)
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life Romans 2:6-7 (RSV)
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (RSV)
For he will render to every man according to his works: … but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Romans 2:6-8 (RSV)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2 Cor 5:10 (RSV)
And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds… 1 Peter 1:17 (RSV)
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Rev 20:12-13 (RSV)
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22 (RSV)
**For if we sin deliberately … a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27 (RSV) * *
… fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. Romans 8:17 (RSV)
But nothing unclean shall enter [Heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood… Rev 21:27 (RSV)
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matt 12:36-37 (RSV)
Code: 
*He who believes and **is baptized** will be saved… Mark 16:16 (RSV)*
So we need to keep the Commandments, watch our tongues, do good deeds, not fall, be baptized…

Even Paul wasn’t sure of his salvation: …lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:26-27 (RSV)

God bless us all!

Ruthie
 
Have you ever noticed the similarities between the life of Moses and Jesus?
  • Pharaoh orders the all Hebrew baby boys to be killed at the time of Moses’ birth.
  • Herod kills all the Hebrew male children at the time of Jesus’ birth.
  • Moses was rescued by a family member.
  • Jesus, carried off by Joseph to - of all places - Egypt, where Moses, the first deliverer of God’s people, was also raised.
  • Like Moses, Jesus too is called back to his birthplace after a time of exile.
  • Moses liberated the Israelites, leading them on an “exodus” from Egypt.
  • Jesus’ Baptism in the New Testament is the beginning of a “new exodus.” Moses liberated the Israelites, leading them on an “exodus” from Egypt. Jesus’ Baptism in the New Testament is the beginning of a “new exodus.” Like Israel, he is declared God’s “beloved Son” and is made to pass through water.
How old was Moses before God called him to lead? I mean a baby couldn’t have did the job Moses did,right? Plus certain events had to take place first.

Did you also notice that John the Baptist’s father,Zechariah was a priest; and his mother Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron? As in Moses’ little brother the Levite priest. The same tribe of priests that God said to Moses in

** Exodus 40:15**

15 and you shall anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; **and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations." **

That makes John the Baptist a priest. And what was one of the jobs of a priest?

To annoint the new king. And what is Jesus? Our new King!

**Matt 3:14

The Baptism of Jesus**

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.

14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “**I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” **

15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.

Certain events had to take place. John the Baptist was only 3 months old when Jesus was born, how was he suppose to baptize Jesus? Though Jesus was circumcised at **eight days old **and St. Paul later says that baptism replaces circumcision. So a child of eight days old now is baptized instead of circumcised.

It’s a good thing we didn’t throw out the Old Testament;)
 
“And many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years…”
**Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15:6 (A.D. 110-165). **

“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.”
Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140**). **

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
**Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180). **

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.”
**Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215). **

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.”
Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of** baptizing infants too.” **
**Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244). **

“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church,** Baptism is given even to infants**. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.”
**Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244). **

“Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature?”
**Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:17 (A.D. 381). **

“Be it so, some will say, in the case of those who ask for Baptism; what have you to say about those who are still children, and conscious neither of the loss nor of the grace? Are we to baptize them too? Certainly, if any danger presses. For it is better that they should be unconsciously sanctified than that they should depart unsealed and uninitiated.”
Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:28 (A.D. 381).

“‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is expected: not the infant, not the one prevented by necessity.”
**Ambrose, Abraham, 2,11:79 (A.D. 387). **

“We do baptize infants, although they are not guilty of any sins.”
**John Chrysostom, Ad Neophytos (A.D. 388). **

“Now, seeing that they [Pelagians] admit the necessity of baptizing infants,–finding themselves unable to contravene that authority of the universal Church, which has been unquestionably handed down by the Lord and His apostles,–they cannot avoid the further concession, that infants require the same benefits of the Mediator, in order that, being washed by the sacrament and charity of the faithful, and thereby incorporated into the body of Christ, which is the Church, they may be reconciled to God, and so live in Him, and be saved, and delivered, and redeemed, and enlightened. But from what, if not from death, and the vices, and guilt, and thraldom, and darkness of sin? And, inasmuch as they do not commit any sin in the tender age of infancy by their actual transgression, original sin only is left.”
**Augustine, On forgiveness of sin and baptism, 39[26] (A.D. 412). **

“The blessed Cyprian, indeed, said, in order to correct those who thought that an infant should not be baptized before the eighth day, that it was not the body but the soul which behoved to be saved from perdition – in which statement he was not inventing any new doctrine, but preserving the firmly established faith of the Church; and he, along with some of his colleagues in the episcopal office, held that a child may be properly baptized immediately after its birth.”
** Augustine, Epistle 166:8:23 (A.D. 412). **

“Likewise, whosoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that sacrament shall be made alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration, and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer baptism to infant children, because it is believed, as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ.”
**Augustine, Epistle 167,7,21 (A.D. 415). **

“Canon 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized…let him be anathema.”
**Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (A.D. 418). **

“Believest thou this?..When a newborn child is brought forward to receive the anointing of initiation, or rather of consummation through holy baptism.”
**Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, 7 (A.D. 428). **
 
fellowChristian said:
Have you ever noticed the similarities between the life of Moses and Jesus?
  • Pharaoh orders the all Hebrew baby boys to be killed at the time of Moses’ birth.
  • Herod kills all the Hebrew male children at the time of Jesus’ birth.
  • Moses was rescued by a family member.
  • Jesus, carried off by Joseph to - of all places - Egypt, where Moses, the first deliverer of God’s people, was also raised.
  • Like Moses, Jesus too is called back to his birthplace after a time of exile.
  • Moses liberated the Israelites, leading them on an “exodus” from Egypt.
  • Jesus’ Baptism in the New Testament is the beginning of a “new exodus.” Moses liberated the Israelites, leading them on an “exodus” from Egypt. Jesus’ Baptism in the New Testament is the beginning of a “new exodus.” Like Israel, he is declared God’s “beloved Son” and is made to pass through water.
How old was Moses before God called him to lead? I mean a baby couldn’t have did the job Moses did,right? Plus certain events had to take place first.

Did you also notice that John the Baptist’s father,Zechariah was a priest; and his mother Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron? As in Moses’ little brother the Levite priest. The same tribe of priests that God said to Moses in

** Exodus 40:15**

15 and you shall anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; **and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations." **

That makes John the Baptist a priest. And what was one of the jobs of a priest?

To annoint the new king. And what is Jesus? Our new King!

**Matt 3:14

The Baptism of Jesus**

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.

14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “**I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” **

15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.

Certain events had to take place. John the Baptist was only 3 months old when Jesus was born, how was he suppose to baptize Jesus? Though Jesus was circumcised at **eight days old **and St. Paul later says that baptism replaces circumcision. So a child of eight days old now is baptized instead of circumcised.

It’s a good thing we didn’t throw out the Old Testament;)
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Good work. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard anyone make these comparisons. Thnx for sharing.
 
Ruthie said:
Ah, but, Hays,

Yes, there are many verses we can pull out of the NT that say, “believe and you will be saved.”

But how do we incorporate those with the ones that say we have to do more?

I’d say we need to do everything we’re told, not just rely on the ones we like.

Here are a few:

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21 (RSV)
If you would enter life, keep the commandments. Matt 19:17 (RSV)
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life Romans 2:6-7 (RSV)
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (RSV)
For he will render to every man according to his works: … but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Romans 2:6-8 (RSV)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2 Cor 5:10 (RSV)
And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds… 1 Peter 1:17 (RSV)
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Rev 20:12-13 (RSV)
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22 (RSV)
**For if we sin deliberately … a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27 (RSV) * *
… fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. Romans 8:17 (RSV)
But nothing unclean shall enter [Heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood… Rev 21:27 (RSV)
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matt 12:36-37 (RSV)
Code: 
*He who believes and **is baptized*** will be saved… Mark 16:16 (RSV)
So we need to keep the Commandments, watch our tongues, do good deeds, not fall, be baptized…

Even Paul wasn’t sure of his salvation: …lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:26-27 (RSV)

God bless us all!

Ruthie
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Very convincing points. I’ve learned so much from you and others here. I’m very close to changing churches.
 
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