Baptism and non-practicing parents

[Jabronie]

Question here: My non-practicing Catholic friend (who is mostly atheist) married a non-practicing Lutheran (who is still a believer) in her family’s church. They have a baby now, and both of their families are pressuring them to baptize the baby. His Catholic parents don’t care where, as long as it’s valid, but her Lutheran parents think they should have the baby baptized in the Catholic Church (no idea why, but why argue against that?)

Anyhow, he asked for advice. I told him he would have belong to a parish, his wife would not have to convert, at least one God Parent would need to be Catholic, and they’d have to go to a couple of pre-baptism classes. I also told him I’d check here in case I’m missing anything. For example, would they need to get their marriage convalidated first?

Thanks!

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

Most parishes would require one least one parent to be a member of the parish.

Edited to add: One Godparent being catholic might not be a requirement. I have RC friends who chose a Pentecostal and an Anglican as Godparents to their 2 children.

 

[Gorgias]

Most parishes would require one least one parent to be a member of the parish.

Moreover, the Church would expect that the parents aren’t simply bringing their child to be baptized, without the intention of raising the child in the faith: “For an infant to be baptised lawfully it is required that there be a well-founded hope that the child will be brought up in the catholic religion. If such hope is truly lacking, the baptism is, in accordance with the provisions of particular law, to be deferred and the parents advised of the reason for this.” (canon 868 §1 2°).

One Godparent being catholic might not be a requirement. I have RC friends who chose a Pentecostal and an Anglican as Godparents to their 2 children.

Actually, it is a requirement (cf canon 874 §1 3°); moreover, the Catholic godparent must also be confirmed.

I have RC friends who chose a Pentecostal and an Anglican as Godparents to their 2 children.

It is possible to have one Catholic and one non-Catholic Christian. In that case, the non-Catholic is technically called a “Christian witness”, not a godparent (cf canon 874 §2).

I’m hoping that what you were saying was that, for one child, the Pentecostal was the Christian witness, and for the other, the Anglican was the Christian witness; in both cases, though, another sponsor was present, who is Catholic. Is this what the case is, perhaps?

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

I’m hoping that what you were saying was that, for one child, the Pentecostal was the Christian witness, and for the other, the Anglican was the Christian witness; in both cases, though, another sponsor was present, who is Catholic. Is this what the case is, perhaps?

That’s not what I said at all. The same two people were the sponsors at both baptisms. At the time, only one of the parents was Catholic, although they both are now. The priest told them nothing about one HAVING to be Catholic and they chose friends they knew would pray for their children and help to them to raise them in the Catholic faith, even if they themselves were not members of the Catholic church.

 

[JaKael02]

Your scenario is pretty typical. I know some people myself who Baptist their children but have no real intent on raising them in the faith (which is a requirement). It’s a sad state the Church is in.

All we can do is pray & fast for them as much as possible, so their lukewarm faith becomes fervent.

 

[Gorgias]

That’s not what I said at all.

That’s what I was afraid you meant.

The priest told them nothing about one HAVING to be Catholic

His error, then.

 

[1ke]

I told him he would have belong to a parish, his wife would not have to convert,

She would not necessarily have to convert. However, one or both of them would have to resume or undertake the active practice of the Catholic faith.

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

at least one God Parent would need to be Catholic,

Only Catholics can be godparents to Catholic children.

A non-Catholic can stand, together with a Catholic sponsor, as a Christian Witness to the baptism. But they are not themselves the sponsor (a.k.a. godparent).

Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

§2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

and they’d have to go to a couple of pre-baptism classes.

The requirements for sacramental preparation vary from diocese to diocese. You should really make not statement on this, unless you know the requirements at his particular parish. The first of course will be that they begin attending that parish and meet with the pastor.

For example, would they need to get their marriage convalidated first?

Maybe. While not a canonical requirement, there must be (as stated in canons above) a well founded hope that the child will be raised Catholic. An atheist, non practicing Catholic who married outside the Church and his Lutheran bride do not say “well founded hope” to me. So, the priest may want them to demonstrate, with concrete actions, their commitment to returning to or assuming the real practice of the faith.

 

[1ke]

That’s not what I said at all. The same two people were the sponsors at both baptisms. At the time, only one of the parents was Catholic, although they both are now. The priest told them nothing about one HAVING to be Catholic and they chose friends they knew would pray for their children and help to them to raise them in the Catholic faith, even if they themselves were not members of the Catholic church.

Then the reality is, the children had no sponsors.

 

[Phemie]

That’s not what I said at all. The same two people were the sponsors at both baptisms. At the time, only one of the parents was Catholic, although they both are now. The priest told them nothing about one HAVING to be Catholic and they chose friends they knew would pray for their children and help to them to raise them in the Catholic faith, even if they themselves were not members of the Catholic church.

I’ve seen that happen when the priest assumes that the Catholic parent(s) knows the rules and is following them – something which should never be assumed in this day and age. It also happens that sometimes the parents are not informed of what the Church teaches. It was never explained to us that our youngest’s ‘godfather’ is in fact a ‘Christian witness’ and doesn’t have the same responsibility as his godmother.

A godparent is a sponsor and you can’t sponsor someone into an organization of which you’re not a member.

In some cases, a member of the Pentecostal faith might not even be eligible to be a Christian witness because that requires having been validly baptized with the Trinitarian formula. Mormons and members of the Salvation Army aren’t eligible either.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

In some cases, a member of the Pentecostal faith might not even be eligible to be a Christian witness because that requires having been validly baptized with the Trinitarian formula. Mormons and members of the Salvation Army aren’t eligible either.

In this particular case, the Pentecostal was validly baptized. I was at his baptism when he was a teenager. The other was my sister, baptized as an infant. Both are very active in the children’s lives both at church and otherwise, so while some of you may say that they weren’t Godparents, they are most certainly acting in the appropriate capacity as such. It’s not like the parents can go back and change who was at the baptism.

 

[Lapey]

In this particular case, the Pentecostal was validly baptized. I was at his baptism when he was a teenager. The other was my sister, baptized as an infant. Both are very active in the children’s lives both at church and otherwise, so while some of you may say that they weren’t Godparents, they are most certainly acting in the appropriate capacity as such. It’s not like the parents can go back and change who was at the baptism.

They may in fact be active Christians and good role models for this child, however, one Catholic God Parent who has received confirmation and is in good standing is a requirement; not a suggestion. If the Pastor allowed this he is at fault of the irregular baptism.

In the case the OP is talking about, it seems there is no reasonable assurance this child will be raised in the faith so the answer should be no, we will not baptize this child. I know many, even clergy will disagree, but this is what the canon law speaks of. Baptism is not a social event or something that is done to please the grandparents, it is a lifelong commitment made on behalf of a child by their parents or guardians. This should never be taken lightly.

 

[Gorgias]

while some of you may say that they weren’t Godparents, they are most certainly acting in the appropriate capacity as such.

Well, that certainly depends. In the context of a Catholic baptism, “acting in the appropriate capacity” as a sponsor (i.e., godparent) means giving witness to living out the Catholic life. Is that what a Pentecostal and an Anglican do? I mean, don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that your sister isn’t a good Christian! But, I am asking whether she’s giving witness to the Catholic faith, which is what you seem to be saying (or, at least, think that you’re saying… ).

It’s not like the parents can go back and change who was at the baptism.

Right – it’s a question of liceity, not validity.

 

[Phemie]

Well, that certainly depends. In the context of a Catholic baptism, “acting in the appropriate capacity” as a sponsor (i.e., godparent) means giving witness to living out the Catholic life. Is that what a Pentecostal and an Anglican do? I mean, don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that your sister isn’t a good Christian! But, I am asking whether she’s giving witness to the Catholic faith, which is what you seem to be saying (or, at least, think that you’re saying… ).

Right – it’s a question of liceity, not validity.

In this case I don’t think it’s even a matter of liceity. There is no need for a sponsor for the baptism to be licit. Most emergency baptisms don’t involve sponsors at all.

Your first comment about the role of a sponsor made me think of something that happened when I was just dating my DH. His grandfather was dying and we went on a trip to see him before he died. We stayed at DH’s aunt & uncle with other members of the family and were there over a weekend. On Sunday morning I accompanied them to the Anglican church for a communion service. I knew enough about my faith to know I couldn’t receive but the service was still very familiar and I was shy about insisting on going to Mass since it would have involved someone having to drive me at a time when they had so much on their plate. At lunch, DH’s aunt pulled him aside and said, “Suzanne is Catholic and she has to go to Mass. There’s a 4 pm Mass at the Cathedral and I want you to make sure she gets there. Supper will wait until you get back.”

I came to realize in the following years that even though she wasn’t Catholic, and could not be a sponsor, she would have been a much better ‘godmother’ than any of the Catholic ones I eventually picked for my children. She would have cared that they receive all their sacraments and would have rejoiced with us when they did – unlike their godparents who thought I was nuts for raising them in the Church like Mom and Dad did with us.

 

[CB_Catholic]

In this case I don’t think it’s even a matter of liceity. There is no need for a sponsor for the baptism to be licit. Most emergency baptisms don’t involve sponsors at all.

Your first comment about the role of a sponsor made me think of something that happened when I was just dating my DH. His grandfather was dying and we went on a trip to see him before he died. We stayed at DH’s aunt & uncle with other members of the family and were there over a weekend. On Sunday morning I accompanied them to the Anglican church for a communion service. I knew enough about my faith to know I couldn’t receive but the service was still very familiar and I was shy about insisting on going to Mass since it would have involved someone having to drive me at a time when they had so much on their plate. At lunch, DH’s aunt pulled him aside and said, “Suzanne is Catholic and she has to go to Mass. There’s a 4 pm Mass at the Cathedral and I want you to make sure she gets there. Supper will wait until you get back.”

I came to realize in the following years that even though she wasn’t Catholic, and could not be a sponsor, she would have been a much better ‘godmother’ than any of the Catholic ones I eventually picked for my children. She would have cared that they receive all their sacraments and would have rejoiced with us when they did – unlike their godparents who thought I was nuts for raising them in the Church like Mom and Dad did with us.

That is a very nice story. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Gorgias]

In this case I don’t think it’s even a matter of liceity. There is no need for a sponsor for the baptism to be licit.

Yes – I mis-spoke. Thanks!