Baptism and nothing else?

[Tulitas]

No misconception. All the immigrant families here are VERY into their faith.
They may have not rec;d sacraments on the American timeline, but they move alot.

I’m of the same culture.

 

[virgo]

I should clarify that as well—these are not immigrants, these are my counterparts (Mexican American—born and raised in the US). Nothing to do with South or Central America.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The bottom line is if you live in an area where you can priest shop around enough, you can find a priest who does not enforce Canon Law. Sad, but, true.

I once traveled to another state to be a Baptismal Sponsor. I brought along a letter from my pastor that showed I was in good standing, that he allowed me to skip the classes because I taught the classes. When I handed it to the distant priest, he laughed and said “we don’t care about those things here”

 

[Vico]

Indulge me while I look at the other side of the issue.

The most important thing is that the child is baptized. The Child’s soul needs to be introduced to the Holy Spirit. Do not allow the sins of the parent to punish the innocent child for an eternity.

The baptism plants a tiny seed in the soul of the child. As Pianistclare noted, “They all come back. Eventually, they all come back. Leave it to the Holy Spirit.” If they are baptized, there is a far greater chance of them coming back than there is if they aren’t and the parents develop a major resentment against the church.

Thank you for indulging me.

The seed is sanctifying grace. The dogmas are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
• God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)

 

[Anicette]

It is something common in many cultures and places, not only the hispanic culture.

It is the situation for the majority of catholic christenings in my country too: France.
But thoses situations are decreasing because there is fewer and fewer baptisms.

In fact the situation you describe is the step just before the complete dechristinanization.

Parents do not believe or live as christians but are attached to some sacraments like baptism, marriage and funerals in Church. They have had some religious education as children. It is a part of family tradition and rite of passage.
Then, often the next generation stop this too, because they do not feel they belong to the Church, do not know faith and don’t believe.

 

[HolySpirit]

HolySpirit:

Indulge me while I look at the other side of the issue.

The most important thing is that the child is baptized. The Child’s soul needs to be introduced to the Holy Spirit. Do not allow the sins of the parent to punish the innocent child for an eternity.

The baptism plants a tiny seed in the soul of the child. As Pianistclare noted, “They all come back. Eventually, they all come back. Leave it to the Holy Spirit.” If they are baptized, there is a far greater chance of them coming back than there is if they aren’t and the parents develop a major resentment against the church.

Thank you for indulging me.

The seed is sanctifying grace. The dogmas are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
• God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)

Thank you for succinctly answering my questions. I am going to write them down.

One follow up question. Will the lack of baptism have an effect on the child when he reaches the age of reason. (I think that is what it is called. When the child turns 8) I was thinking specifically on point two. I would say no if he had committed a mortal sin prior to death. However, there must be some benefit from a grace perspective to baptism.

Or is baptism just a prerequisite to confirmation?

Your answer threw me for a loop in a good way.

 

[Reuben_J]

It is something common in many cultures and places, not only the hispanic culture.

It is the situation for the majority of catholic christenings in my country too: France.
But thoses situations are decreasing because there is fewer and fewer baptisms.

In fact the situation you describe is the step just before the complete dechristinanization.

Parents do not believe or live as christians but are attached to some sacraments like baptism, marriage and funerals in Church. They have had some religious education as children. It is a part of family tradition and rite of passage.
Then, often the next generation stop this too, because they do not feel they belong to the Church, do not know faith and don’t believe.

Exactly.

It is a process and probably what happened gradually after the Wars, fifties and sixties.

When we baptize babies because it is the thing that we do like birthdays or anniversaries or because our parents did it, and perhaps little nothing else, these babies will grow up not properly catechized or practicing the faith.

Their children later on will perhaps depend entirely on the Sunday school that they had in the church but at home nobody would talk about the faith.

These in turn will not be practicing the faith, if it is not earlier (their parents).

We saw that trend in the sixties - the hippies, drug and sex.

The following generation would be having no Catholic background and they stop baptizing.

The seventies, eighties and so on. They would spend their Sunday morning watching football matches instead of in the church attending mass.

 

[TheOldColonel]

If church is so unimportant, then let them baptize their own babies.

 

[Vico]

…

Thank you for succinctly answering my questions. I am going to write them down.

One follow up question. Will the lack of baptism have an effect on the child when he reaches the age of reason. (I think that is what it is called. When the child turns 8) I was thinking specifically on point two. I would say no if he had committed a mortal sin prior to death. However, there must be some benefit from a grace perspective to baptism.

Or is baptism just a prerequisite to confirmation?

Your answer threw me for a loop in a good way.

On age of reason the infant must decide to act in cooperation with grace or against it. If baptized, then the state of sanctifying grace is present at the point that the reasoning start to function. If not baptized, then actual grace aids to bring the person to conversion, but the fallen human nature is prone to fail.

It is true that Christian Initiation is incomplete without the three sacraments, original order:

• Baptism,
• Confirmation or Chrismation,
• Eucharist.

The first two sacraments of Christian Initiation give a mark on the character. The Eucharist is a sacrament of nurturing.

The eastern canon law has some interesting canons with respect to the sacraments of initiation:

CCEO

Canon 7.1. The Christian faithful are those who, incorporated in Christ through baptism, have been constituted as the people of God; for this reason, since they have become sharers in Christ’s priestly, prophetic and royal function in their own manner; they are called, in accordance with the condition proper to each, to exercise the mission which God has entrusted to the Church to fulfill in the world.

Canon 692 It is necessary that those who are baptized be chrismated with holy myron, that by a seal they be signed with the gift of the Holy Spirit and be made more proper witnesses and co-builders in the Kingdom of Christ.

Canon 697 Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris.

 

[Tulitas]

No, we are called to spread the faith by virtue of our Baptism, Priest, Prophet King, remember?

They do not believe it is unimportant, that is a big misconception perpetrated by some.
Immigrants live in a state of flux. They have no real place to call home, often fleeing great violence, only to have been met with anger and suspicion everywhere they go.
They would like to work and have a stable place to live, and raise their children. There are parishes that say to them “we don’t DO Spanish Baptisms here”.
Honest. I’ve seen it. If the Catholic church won’t assist the people who are TRYING, then what are they supposed to do.
What they DO is, they wait until someone with compassion says, We will help you. Come and take this classes/classes, and enroll your kids and we will Baptize them and help you teach them. We will teach you too. And you can sit beside us in Church and take Eucharist with us, as Christ taught us to welcome the stranger. Strangers no more.

 

[virgo]

I get that, but again—these are not immigrants—they are my peers, Mexican Americans who grew up in the US speaking English only.

 

[Nelka]

The seed is sanctifying grace. The dogmas are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)

What about people whom have never been baptised and grow up not believing, how do they become saved?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The seed is sanctifying grace. The dogmas are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)

What about people whom have never been baptised and grow up not believing, how do they become saved?

There is hope.

Catechism of hhe Catholic Church

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.