Baptism... And the True Church

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This verse alone verifies the existence of more than one Baptism mentioned in the Bible. According to Peter, there is a baptism that is the “putting away the filth of the flesh” (such as the one that Scylla mentioned was related to circumcision), and one that is an “answer of a good conscience toward God”.

Since this verse is speaking of Baptism saving us, and this baptism not being the one that is “putting away the filth of the flesh”, it can only be the baptism that is an answer of a good conscience toward God. In the text of this verse, Peter was using the deluge as an illustration for baptism… How that “eight souls were saved by water”. It must not be misunderstood here that “water” is the principle topic, as Noah and his family were never submerged in the water… but were saved from the judgement of God by water, and the salvation of those people is the topic of this passage.
This is a nice literalist interpretation of that passage but there is nothing in that verse or in any other passages in the New Testament that supports (or even implies!) multiple baptisms. It’s just not there, no matter how hard you wish for it to be and this is an example of the twisted interpretation that results from trying to force your denominational theology onto a passage of the Word of God.

John Martignoni points out the important difference between the Catholic literal reading of the Bible and the “literalist” or “fundamentalist” interpretation of same when he says.
Q: A friend of mine said that his church takes the Bible literally, but that the Catholic Church doesn’t…is that true?
A: Actually, there is no truth to that, whatsoever. Catholics interpret the Bible in a “literal” sense, while many fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and others interpret the Bible in a literalist sense.
The “literal” meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The “literalist” interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: “that’s what it says, that’s what it means.”
Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was “raining cats and dogs outside”, how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the “literal” interpretation…the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a “literalist” interpretation of the phrase, “it’s raining cats and dogs”?
The “literalist” interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author’s intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or fundamentalist, way of interpretation.
If someone 2000 years in the future picked up that same book and read, “It was raining cats and dogs outside,” in order to properly understand that passage in the book, they would need a “literal” interpretation, not a “literalist” interpretation. Now, think about that in the context of interpreting the Bible 2000-3000 years after it was written.
Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or fundamentalist, interpretation.
LINK
Blackie
 
NotWorthy,
Not only in Baptism Biblical in the NT, it’s biblical roots go all the back to the Old Testament. Could Ezekiel be any clearer? Ezek: 36:25-27
Let’s look at the verses again…
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Just because verse 25 alludes to water being used, it is important that we compare this with the overall theme of the Bible… It is the Blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin…

This is also illustrated in Leviticus; leprosy was used as a sin illustration…
Lev 14:7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
The blood of that bird that was loosed, was symbolic of Christ’s Blood, and that blood was used to cleanse the leper… it should also be noted… the hyssop that was used to sprinkle the blood was attached to a cedar stick (symbolic of the cross).

We also see in the New Testament, the Blood of Christ being the cleansing agent for sin…
Heb 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he **sprinkled with blood **both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 **And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. **
Heb 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
The water being used is not the illustration in Ezekiel 36:25, but the act of sprinkling. And that act of sprinkling was to illustrate the coming salvation through the Blood of Christ.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Eden,

Thanks, and here is a link to my website and an article explaining the Biblical interpretation of Baptism, and how it relates to the circumcision.

A Repudiation of Infant Baptism

Portions of that article have been taken from my book “The Theocracy Conspiracy”, in which I have expounded on the doctrine of Baptism extensively.

John
www.gideonsword.net
allow me to refute this arrongant refutaion:

from your website :
"So, the circumcision, being a token of the covenant, is a picture of what the covenant was. But, the token doesn’t mean anything to someone who doesn’t understand what the token represents. The token of the circumcision represented a changed heart; it is an illustration of repentance. "

So what the heretic who wrote this blasphemy is saying, is that, If God gives us a command , that it is just symbolic and not necassary to follow, if we don’t understand it the command. So therefore retards, children, and illiterates are not included into God’s Covenant’s. Maybe only well educated white people according to ths author.

Now lets take the command to Abraham :

Genesis 17:9-11
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.”

Genesis 17:13-15
13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised.
My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

So I geuss Joseph and Mary were way out of line having baby Jesus Circumsized eh? …NOT!!!

The arrogance of your “refutaion” is near, if not is blasphemous. Your refuation, and I say yours because you promote it so you take ownership of it, says God is a Liar.

Your souce is surely corrupt, and consequently so are your arguments.

Peace of the Lord be with you all.
 
Notworthy,

I would like to make another comparison related to your reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27;

You said concerning that passage…
Let’s see:
a) This sounds like Baptism
b) It cleanses you from your sins.
c) You receive the Holy Spirit
d) Sounds like obedience is very important, too!!
If water were all that were necessary for salvation… why did Christ have to shed His Blood?

And why was so much emphasis put on the necessity of a sin offering in the Old Testament?

As salvation is illustrated in the Abrahamic covenant… baptism is related to circumcision. What seems to be necessary then… relating this to the Abrahamic covenant… is understanding the order of events in a Hebrew infants consecration.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
The garg,
So what the heretic who wrote this blasphemy is saying, is that, If God gives us a command , that it is just symbolic and not necassary to follow, if we don’t understand it the command. So therefore retards, children, and illiterates are not included into God’s Covenant’s. Maybe only well educated white people according to ths author…
…So I gess Joseph and Mary were way out of line having Jesus Circumsized…the arrogance if your “refutaion” is near, if not is blasphemous. Your refuation, and I say yours because you promote it so you take ownership of it, says God is a Liar.
Yes, I take ownership of it… because I wrote it. And I stand by it, here’s why…

I said in that article, “the token doesn’t mean anything to someone who doesn’t understand what the token represents”. The token, is not intended as a sign for one who is under the covenant to see… but rather for others to see and identify that person as one who is under the covenant (Gen. 17:14)…

Likewise, since water baptism is related to circumcision, it is an outward sign to identify that person who is “already under the covenant” as a Christian. As far as the Abrahamic covenant goes, those 8 day old boys were already under the covenant because they were the “seed of Abraham”, and God had promised to be their God (Gen. 17:7).

Since circumcision is the act of putting off the filth of the flesh, and baptism is related to circumcision… it is obvious that baptism is an act of repentance (putting off the filth of the flesh).

This is the other Baptism that is contrasted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:21…
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
This “water baptism” is not the one that saves us… it is the one that identifies us to the world as Christians, and it is the act of repentance, not so much the water that is relevant. But we obey Christ by being baptized as our first act of obedience to Him (which again, is the illustration of the spiritual baptism we have already experienced).

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Notworthy,

I would like to make another comparison related to your reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27;

You said concerning that passage…

If water were all that were necessary for salvation… why did Christ have to shed His Blood?

And why was so much emphasis put on the necessity of a sin offering in the Old Testament?

As salvation is illustrated in the Abrahamic covenant… baptism is related to circumcision. What seems to be necessary then… relating this to the Abrahamic covenant… is understanding the order of events in a Hebrew infants consecration.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Blackie,
This is a nice literalist interpretation of that passage but there is nothing in that verse or in any other passages in the New Testament that supports (or even implies!) multiple baptisms. It’s just not there, no matter how hard you wish for it to be and this is an example of the twisted interpretation that results from trying to force your denominational theology onto a passage of the Word of God.
Actually it’s not a literalist interpretation at all, if anything it is a figurative interpretation. My interpretation, as far as multiple baptisms go only divided the verse exactly the way it was intended to be divided, the way Peter divided it… with a comma…
1Pe 3:21 …not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God…
And yes, there are several baptisms mentioned in the bible…
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Since there are by some approximations five baptisms mentioned above… I would like to see how you rectify all these to one “all inclusive” baptism.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Notworthy,
John (BA), one of the things you stated in your original post is that the early Church did not practice infant baptism. In some of the Catecombs of Rome, there are grave headstone of infants that were buried around 90 AD. These children showed to have been baptism as infants and toddlers. Does this show that the early church practiced infant baptism?
In my historical research I have seen 300 year old tombstones that were barely legible, I doubt that all of the headstones you are referring to are any more legible than the ones I have seen.

And even if they are, and they do indicate that the infant or toddler was baptized, I can only say that it was a result of ignorance and not a true understanding of baptism…

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
A few observations:

As Catholic’s we believe it is Christ’s shedding of blood on the cross that redeems us. How do we recieve that gift of salvation? It is through the sacraments that we recieve God’s grace. The creative order is good that is why God sent Christ in the form of man. That is why Christ uses creation as a means to apply the effects of calvary to us.

I have never had a non-Catholic tell me how they recieve what Christ did on Calvary. But they will make statments to the effect that “we are covered by the blood” or " we are washed by the blood" How? If you are Catholic you have no issue with a question like this.

Catholic’s do not believe that “water baptism is all that is necessary for salvation”. I think it would help if we do not distort Catholic teaching in order to support a man made belief. Let’s present the doctrines correctly and let them stand or fall on those merits.

Last but not least the Catholic understanding of Baptism can be traced back through history to the apostles. If a Baptist can trace their doctrine of Baptism back through history before the reformation I would be happy to take a look.

Peace,
David
 
DCD,
If a Baptist can trace their doctrine of Baptism back through history before the reformation I would be happy to take a look.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
These are the earliest historical records I can find.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
DCD,
It is through the sacraments that we recieve God’s grace.
The Bible says it is through faith (not sacraments) that we receive God’s grace…
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
John
www.gideonsword.net
 
I have some questions:

Isn’t there somewhere in the bible where it says that a guys ‘whole household’ was baptised? Doesn’t that mean probably children as well?

Isn’t it also true that if an external ritual was required for salvation that would be ‘salvation by works’?

Isn’t it true that the founder of the baptist church baptized himself? Thats not in the bible…

It should also be remembered that the Churches, both protestant and Catholic who infant baptise usually have an adult commitment in the form of confirmation which is said to complete the induction into the church.

One more question: When did the ‘sprinkling’ method begin, and do those who advocate full imersion believe that all those souls who between that date and the founding of the baptist church were lost?

I write this as one who was baptized by full immersion, then changed chruch and was Confirmed into it. I would never dream of saying that my brothers and sisters who were baptised by this method had somehow had an invalid conversion experience. Wake up to yourself.
 
From Bibleapologist’s first link in response to me:
In 418AD, the Catholic church determined that it was necessary to baptize infants in the Milevitan Council.
Firstly, I can find this council referred to as “Milevitan” only in Baptist documents. Is this referring to the Council of Carthage which met in 418 A.D.? The statement quoted above attempts to portray the council as having created the necessity of infant baptism in this council. What it does not say is that the baptizing of infants was defined as a canon as a result of the Pelagian heresy. But Christians had been baptizing infants for centuries before this council.

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180). *

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” *Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215). *

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” *Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233). *
“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.” Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244)

“It shows no crease when infants put it on [the baptismal garment], it is not too scanty for young men, it fits women without alteration.” *Optatus of Mileve, Against Parmenium, 5:10(A.D. 365). *
 
Blackie,

Actually it’s not a literalist interpretation at all, if anything it is a figurative interpretation. My interpretation, as far as multiple baptisms go only divided the verse exactly the way it was intended to be divided, the way Peter divided it… with a comma…
So say you. I’ve looked at 1st Peter 3:21 and context in several translations and in none does it support your assertion.
And yes, there are several baptisms mentioned in the bible…
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Since there are by some approximations five baptisms mentioned above… I would like to see how you rectify all these to one “all inclusive” baptism.
This is some of the worst proof texting I’ve ever seen. Just because these passages mention baptisms does not support your assertion in connection with 1st Peter 3:21, which plainly means that baptism has nothing to do with bathing away physical grime but the washing away of sin. None of this is related to the discussion of Peter’s epistle and anyone with God-given common sense and even a single eyeball can see it. There’s nothing for a Catholic to rectify and no Catholic could justify the twist you are making of these verses.

I would also point out that my other post has gone unsanswered. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, (as we Catholics believe) then why bother to debate it at all? The Bible and the Catholic Church teach that it is a vital part of salvation, while you Baptists even carry it as part of your sectarian name and yet you teach that it is not needed for salvation, which makes no sense whatever. Either it is necessary for salvation or it’s not, there is no middle Biblical ground here.

Infant baptism is well documented in early church practice and history. “Whole households” means just what it says, just as it did in the OT. Eighty-six year old Polycarp himself outright proves this in his defense before the proconsul that had him martyred when he tells him, "(5) Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, “Swear, and I will set thee at liberty, reproach Christ;” Polycarp declared, “Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?” Chapter IX LINK
Since he was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist then that speaks volumes.

The fact that the New Testament draws a comparison to circumcision is also instructive since it was by God’s own command that this was carried out to eight day old sons. Who made their professions of faith John? Their parents! Gen 17:12 An infant of eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations: he that is born in the house, as well as the bought servant shall be circumcised, and whosoever is not of your stock:
Blackie
 
The paragraph from Bibleapologist’s site continues as follows:
This decision comes from the idea of “original sin” (another teaching of Augustine). This teaching says that Adam’s sin was imputed to all subsequent humans, and therefore we have unconditionally inherited sin, and eminent judgment. Consequently, (according to the Catholics) all humans are in need of mercy, and this includes infants from the moment they are born.
The articulation of original sin by St. Augustine was in response to the heresy of Pelagianism. This teaching was affirmed by both Martin Luther and John Calvin and is also taught in mainstream Protestantism.
Since they believe baptism to be the means to grace, the next logical step is to baptize infants; this is called pedal-baptism. * *
**
The only valid means of baptism is by immersion, and the scriptures unquestionably support this claim.
Scriptures do not unquestionably support this claim. The only scriptural mandates about the form of baptism is that water is necessary and that the baptism be conferred in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave specific instructions to the apostles (Matt. 28:19) and he said nothing about the necessity of full immersion versus pouring or sprinkling.
Although the aforementioned illustrations should be adequate proof, I trust the “Pedo-baptists” will continue to dispute the Biblical mode of baptism in favor of effusion to endure their doctrine of infant baptism… as baptizing infants by immersion would not be an attractive event for most loving mothers.
The immersion baptism that Baptists refer to was performed by John the Baptist, thus we should not be looking to pre-Christian baptism as a mandate for how baptism should be done. Again, Christ gave the instructions in Matt. 28:19 and He did not make the distinction between immersion, pouring and sprinkling. If this were important to Christ, He would have said so.
 
I have some questions:

Isn’t there somewhere in the bible where it says that a guys ‘whole household’ was baptised? Doesn’t that mean probably children as well?** Definately**
Isn’t it also true that if an external ritual was required for salvation that would be ‘salvation by works’? ** Definately**

Isn’t it true that the founder of the baptist church baptized himself? Thats not in the bible…:confused: :confused: :confused:

It should also be remembered that the Churches, both protestant and Catholic who infant baptise usually have an adult commitment in the form of confirmation which is said to complete the induction into the church. ** Definately**

One more question: When did the ‘sprinkling’ method begin, and do those who advocate full imersion believe that all those souls who between that date and the founding of the baptist church were lost? Not just sprinkling, but more often pouring. See chapter 7 of The Didache

I write this as one who was baptized by full immersion, then changed chruch and was Confirmed into it. I would never dream of saying that my brothers and sisters who were baptised by this method had somehow had an invalid conversion experience.A good point…
Blackie
 
Nowhere in scriptures is there any indication that all baptisms were performed by immersion. In fact, given the desert environment of the Holy Land there would have been many situations in which immersion would have been impossible.

We are also given several examples of baptisms taking place in homes which would make baptism by immersion highly unlikely. People rarely had bathtubs, as they would bathe in public bath houses in those days. St. Paul was baptized in his house, standing up (Acts 22:16). In Acts 16:33 we read that St. Paul baptized the jailer and his household at night while in jail. Again, another situation in which baptism by immersion would have been next to impossible.

The records of early Christians give no indication that baptism took place by immersion only:

Outside of the Scriptural texts, our earliest evidence for Christian methods of baptism comes from the “Didache” (ca. 70-110 A.D.), which clearly authorizes baptism by infusion, or pouring. The “Didache” instructs: “Regarding baptism, baptize thus. After giving the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But, if you have no running water, baptize in any other; and if you cannot in cold water, then in warm. But, if the one is lacking, pour the other three times on the head in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Hippolytus of Rome said, “If water is scarce, whether as a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available” (The Apostolic Tradition, 21 [A.D. 215]).

Pope Cornelius I wrote that as Novatian was about to die, “he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring” (Letter to Fabius of Antioch [A.D. 251]; cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:4311).

Cyprian advised that no one should be “disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord’s grace” (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69:12 [A.D. 255]).

Tertullian described baptism by saying that it is done “with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation, and finally, without cost, a man is baptized in water, and amid the utterance of some few words, is sprinkled, and then rises again, not much (or not at all) the cleaner” (On Baptism, 2 [A.D. 203]).

Then there is the artistic evidence. Much of the earliest Christian artwork depicts baptism—but not baptism by immersion! If the recipient of the sacrament is in a river, he is shown standing in the river while water is poured over his head from a cup or shell. Tile mosaics in ancient churches and paintings in the catacombs depict baptism by pouring. Baptisteries in early cemeteries are clear witnesses to baptisms by infusion. The entire record of the early Church—as shown in the New Testament, in other writings, and in monumental evidence—indicates the mode of baptism was not restricted to immersion.

Other archaeological evidence confirms the same thing. An early Christian baptistery was found in a church in Jesus’ hometown of Nazareth, yet** this baptistery, which dates from the second century, was too small and narrow in which to immerse a person**.

members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/baptism1.html

catholic.com/library/baptism_immersion_only.asp
 
DCD,

The Bible says it is through faith (not sacraments) that we receive God’s grace…John
There are several kinds of grace. The grace which we receive in the Sacraments is called (surprise!) sacramental grace, which includes actual grace and sanctifying grace. Not only is it freely given and unmerited favor (gratia), but God’s own divine life is communicated to us through the Sacraments. We “become partakers of the divine nature” 2 Peter 1:4.

The Bible is not an instruction book in Christianity. Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church. The Church produced the Bible, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

Peace be with you, Katholikos
 
Notworthy,

I would like to make another comparison related to your reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27;

You said concerning that passage…

If water were all that were necessary for salvation… why did Christ have to shed His Blood?
I don’t recall ANYONE on this thread claiming that baptism is ALL THAT IS NECESSARY for salvation, for the bible doesn’t make that claim. I think we all are claiming that Baptism is a NECESSARY STEP in our journeys to Salvation, for that is what the Bible says.
 
NotWorthy,

Let’s look at the verses again…

Just because verse 25 alludes to water being used, it is important that we compare this with the overall theme of the Bible… It is the Blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin…
I think you’re stretching your allusions here. Let’s look at Ezekiel again.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
This is a clear link to Peter’s first proclamation at Pentecost. You can’t just write it off by claiming blood sprinkled on a bird frees us from sin, even though that is pointing to the eternal Sacrifice of Jesus. But His sacrifice in and of itself doesn’t get me into heaven. I MUST participate in His new covenant and be obedient to what He tells me. What does He say? Only those born of Spirit and Water will have eternal life.

Look at Elisha telling the Syrian leader to wash in the Jordan and this will clean him of his leprosy (an OT Type for sin). He washes in the Jordan and his leprosy (or “sin”) is washed away. No blood, no birds, but a clear indication that this incident is another OT Type of a NT grace - Baptism!!!
 
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