Baptism... And the True Church

[bibleapologist]

jemfinch,

“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all because all sinned” Is this perhaps a case where “all” doesn’t mean “all,” John? Where “all” means “only those people who can commit actual sin”? Catholics take this passage at its face value: all have sinned, whether by contracting original sin from their participation on Adam’s sin, or by actually sinning themselves.

I think that verse is absolutely clear… death passed to all men for that all have sinned. What is so hard to understand about that?

The idea of “contracting” a condition from one’s father is exceedingly biblical. Consider Hebrew 7, wihch says, “One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.” One might even say that an infant sinned through Adam, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when the Serpent met him.

If you would like to discuss Augustine’s predestination by “Rationes Seminales” I would be glad to oblige you on another thread… but for the sake of this particular argument, how can you justify the condemnation of a child “before” that child has the ability to act?

Romans 6:23 clearly states that the “wages of sin is death”. You are claiming that since my child was in Adam’s loins they are guilty of sin… but my child didn’t sin in the garden of Eden, no matter how you justify it… so my child cannot be held accountable for an “intention” to do wrong when it can be scientifically proven that my child did not even exist then.

And it says nothing of that sort either. Death doesn’t facilitate sin. Death is sin full-grown (James 1:15). Death is facilitated by sin. Oh Death, where is thy sting? The sting of death is sin.

You’re right, concerning pysical death, but there is a spiritual death that we are all born into according to Romans 5:12…

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The two verses above indicate a state of death in a person while he is still alive physically… how do explain that?

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[jemfinch]

God made a covenant with Abraham AND HIS SEED (which is everyone born of his posterity).

Oh, and furthermore, that’s not what Paul says. “Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his seed. It does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ referring to many; but, referring to one, ‘And to your seen,’ which is Christ.”

Jeremy

 

[jemfinch]

I think that verse is absolutely clear… death passed to all men for that all have sinned. What is so hard to understand about that?

Becuase even children die, and yet you claim that children have not sinned. But this passage says, “all have sinned.” I made this very clear in my original post on this matter, and you completely ignored this argument, as per your modus operandi of acting like hard arguments simply don’t exist. “If I ignore them, they’ll go away.”

If you would like to discuss Augustine’s predestination by “Rationes Seminales” I would be glad to oblige you on another thread…

Don’t bother, it’s not a doctrine I’m aware of.

but for the sake of this particular argument, how can you justify the condemnation of a child “before” that child has the ability to act?

I didn’t say the baby was condemned, only that it’s very clear that the baby has contracted sin from Adam.

Romans 6:23 clearly states that the “wages of sin is death”. You are claiming that since my child was in Adam’s loins they are guilty of sin…

Of original sin.

but my child didn’t sin in the garden of Eden, no matter how you justify it…

Through Adam, he did.

so my child cannot be held accountable for an “intention” to do wrong when it can be scientifically proven that my child did not even exist then.

And yet the Bible says that Levi was “in the loins of Abraham” when Abraham wasn’t even his father. It can be scientifically proven that Levi did not exist when the Bible claims that he existed “in the loins of Abraham.” Likewise, you and your child existed “in the loins of Adam” when Adam sinned.

You’re right, concerning pysical death, but there is a spiritual death that we are all born into according to Romans 5:12…

Nothing in Romans 5:12 indicates that he’s talking about one particular kind of death over the other.

The two verses above indicate a state of death in a person while he is still alive physically… how do explain that?

How do I need to explain that? I haven’t denied the existence of spiritual death.

Jeremy

 

[NotWorthy]

Romans 6:23 clearly states that the “wages of sin is death”. You are claiming that since my child was in Adam’s loins they are guilty of sin… but my child didn’t sin in the garden of Eden, no matter how you justify it… so my child cannot be held accountable for an “intention” to do wrong when it can be scientifically proven that my child did not even exist then.

It’s funny, you ask the question, and then you answer it per Catholic Doctrine.

You’re right, concerning pysical death, but there is a spiritual death that we are all born into according to Romans 5:12…

The two verses above indicate a state of death in a person while he is still alive physically… how do explain that?

He’s born spiritually dead because he’s inherited Original Sin.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

He’s born spiritually dead because he’s inherited Original Sin.

I am not quite sure…John, do you believe that man is totally depraved when you say that he’s “spiritually dead?”

 

[NotWorthy]

I am not quite sure…John, do you believe that man is totally depraved when you say that he’s “spiritually dead?”

Totally depraved? No. Why do you ask?

We are spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit dwells within us. This happens initially at Baptism. I understand that an unbaptized person receives a type of grace (habitual? or actual?) which prompts him to desire to be baptized, but I’m not sure how that relates to the Holy Spirit indwelling our soul.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Totally depraved? No. Why do you ask?

We are spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit dwells within us. This happens initially at Baptism. I understand that an unbaptized person receives a type of grace (habitual? or actual?) which prompts him to desire to be baptized, but I’m not sure how that relates to the Holy Spirit indwelling our soul.

My comment was meant for John aka BA. Sorry 'bout the confusion. If he’s contesting original sin, then maybe he believes in total depravity hence my question.

BA, do you believe in total depravity?

 

[drforjc]

Actually, he needs to prove more than that. He needs to prove that the only authority for religious dogma and praxis is himself interpreting the Bible.

Jeremy

Exactly!

 

[mikeledes]

Original sin simply means that we are born without a saving relationship with God. We are born without the grace of justification and without holiness. This is a conseqence of Adam’s sin. Hence, we are born with a need to be regenerated and saved.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

If infants are born without the need of salvation, then you are saying that infants are saved apart from Jesus. I thought Jesus said no one could come to the Father except through Him. Then all infants, whether born of Christian parents or not, are guaranteed heaven simply because they’re infants? You mean to tell me that infants do not need Jesus as savior?

Ephesians 4:5:
“One Lord, one Faith, ONE BAPTISM…”

The baptism par excellence that is the normative way of being spiritually regenerated is water baptism. This is the ONE baptism referred to here. 1 Peter 3:21 makes it clear that it is through WATER baptism that the salvation earned for us by Christ is applied to our souls. The same way Christ healed people from their physical ailments by using clay, spit, and water, Christ heals and regenerates our soul though the agency of water baptism. It is not the water itself that has some kind of magical power, as Peter makes clear, but the spiritual reality that occurs simultaneously with the water that saves the soul. Just as the “eight souls were saved THROUGH WATER,” we are also saved though the water of baptism. If Peter was not refering to water baptism when he stated that “Baptism now saves you,” then the previous reference to the eight souls saved through water would actually make no sense. The point of the reference to Noah and the ark was to use it as a figure of baptism, since both involved water.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[bibleapologist]

Jemfinch,

Becuase even children die, and yet you claim that children have not sinned. But this passage says, “all have sinned.” I made this very clear in my original post on this matter, and you completely ignored this argument, as per your modus operandi of acting like hard arguments simply don’t exist. “If I ignore them, they’ll go away.”

Yes, even children die… and no, I didn’t say that children don’t sin, in fact I said the complete opposite.

I didn’t ignore your post… you failed to realize my answer. Children are not sinless, but thier sin is a result of the state of spiritual death that they were born into… How can a person (child) be expected to do right when they are seperated from God? When that child is born, immediately death begins to work int their members, why? Because sin works death…

I didn’t say the baby was condemned, only that it’s very clear that the baby has contracted sin from Adam.

The “baby” you are referring is the one that is supposedly in Adam’s loins as per Rationes Seminales, that is the one I questioned as “contracting” sin from Adam. It is very clear that “death”, not “sin” that is contracted from Adam.

The death that is passed on to all men, is not an actual thing… but the lack thereof. It is the lack of spiritual life… and it is this “lack of” spiritual life that enables the child to sin.

And yet the Bible says that Levi was “in the loins of Abraham” when Abraham wasn’t even his father. It can be scientifically proven that Levi did not exist when the Bible claims that he existed “in the loins of Abraham.” Likewise, you and your child existed “in the loins of Adam” when Adam sinned.

Hebrews 7:5 doesn’t prove Rationes Seminales by substantiating that Levi existed in the loins of Abraham… that verse says that Levi came “out of the loins of Abraham”. This is meant in a figuraltive biological sense, but not as Levi actually existed in Abraham’s loins… Come on jemfinch, you are really twisting the scripture to prove your point now.

Nothing in Romans 5:12 indicates that he’s talking about one particular kind of death over the other.

You’re right, but when I showed you how you neglected the possiblilty of an alternate understanding of death, you ignored it… in fact, by not taking Romans 5:12 out of text it becomes necessary to take into consideration the verses I showed you…

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The two verses above indicate a state of death in a person while he is still alive physically… how do explain that?

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Notworthy,

He’s born spiritually dead because he’s inherited Original Sin.

Not according to Romans 5:12…

The child is born spiritually dead because Adam died spiritually, and “death passed to all men”… which again, is the lack of spiritual life.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Dancelittleewok,

BA, do you believe in total depravity?

Total depravity of man according to Calvin… no.

Man has no ability whatsoever to save himself… that work is completely done by God, but…

Man does have the ability to accept or reject that salvation… which is where I diverge from Calvinism.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[NotWorthy]

Notworthy,

Not according to Romans 5:12…

The child is born spiritually dead because Adam died spiritually, and “death passed to all men”… which again, is the lack of spiritual life.

John
www.gideonsword.net

Which IS Original Sin!!!

Adam died a spiritual death. He lost his sanctifying Grace. His children couldn’t inherit from Adam and Eve what they didn’t have, so they were born without Sanctifying Grace. This is one of the “characteristics” of Original Sin. It’s not inheriting the sin. It’s inheriting the results of the sin.

This Spiritual Birth is part of Baptism.

You are SO CLOSE, John!!!

 

[bibleapologist]

Mikeledes,

Original sin simply means that we are born without a saving relationship with God. We are born without the grace of justification and without holiness. This is a conseqence of Adam’s sin. Hence, we are born with a need to be regenerated and saved.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

If infants are born without the need of salvation, then you are saying that infants are saved apart from Jesus.

I didn’t say that, I only said that infants are born without a relationship with God… because death passes to all men.

Infants are in the same position that an adult is concerning the need for salvation, the only difference is that an infant doesn’t have the option of making an educated decision concerning Christ, because they don’t have the level of sophistication required to make that decision…

So we are left to the question, what if a child dies before they are able to accept or reject Christ? I don’t believe that the Bible has left that situation open to be rectified however we see fit… We can however ascertain whether an infant or toddler would be justifiably condemned by God for his or her sinful acts.

As I said before, according to Matthew 28:19, 20 a person is required to be taught before baptism… whether you’re taking the Catholic position, or the Baptist position; this still means that “teaching” is required before the person being taught is to receive justification. And since all men have a God given right to accept or deny justification… it seems that there is an obvious need for clemency in such a situation; and we find that God never specifically condemns infants for sin until they are able to accept the salvation for that sin.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Notworthy,

Which IS Original Sin!!!

Adam died a spiritual death. He lost his sanctifying Grace. His children couldn’t inherit from Adam and Eve what they didn’t have, so they were born without Sanctifying Grace. This is one of the “characteristics” of Original Sin. It’s not inheriting the sin. It’s inheriting the results of the sin.

I don’t believe we are discussing a matter of congnitive linguistics here. From what I can tell, the Catholic Church teaches that an infant is a sinner from conception… because that infant has inherited Adam’s sin.

The Apostle [Paul] contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” (CCC #402)
*As a side note: is the Cathoic Church actually claiming universal atonement?

What you are describing, (and what I am describing) is not sinfulness (disobedience) at all, we are describing a lack of spiritual wholeness. That is the state that a person is conceived in… spiritual death.

To further prove my point… the Apostle Paul writes concerning Isaac’s sons…

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Isaac’s sons were not sinners before they were born, so they could not have inherited Adam’s sin, and neither the condemnation for sin.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Mikeledes,

If Peter was not refering to water baptism when he stated that “Baptism now saves you,” then the previous reference to the eight souls saved through water would actually make no sense. The point of the reference to Noah and the ark was to use it as a figure of baptism, since both involved water.

It is superficial interpretations of scripture like this one that enables perverted doctrines such as Pedo-baptism.

It is irresponsible to take verses out of text in the first place, but then to interpret them in such an elementary fashion is reckless.

John,
www.gideonsword.net

 

[NotWorthy]

Notworthy,

I don’t believe we are discussing a matter of congnitive linguistics here. From what I can tell, the Catholic Church teaches that an infant is a sinner from conception… because that infant has inherited Adam’s sin.

Great, now I have to look up congnitive linguistics!!!

We inherit the effects of Adam’s sin: Lack of Sanctifying Grace, what you call “no spiritual life”, and Concupiscience, or a natural inclination to sin.

What you are describing, (and what I am describing) is not sinfulness (disobedience) at all, we are describing a lack of spiritual wholeness. That is the state that a person is conceived in… spiritual death.

Again, see above. I think we are in agreement on that one point (small wonders, eh?).

To further prove my point… the Apostle Paul writes concerning Isaac’s sons…

Isaac’s sons were not sinners before they were born, so they could not have inherited Adam’s sin, and neither the condemnation for sin.

Again, they do not inherit Adam’s sin, they inherit the effects of this sin, one of which is the lack of Sanctifying Grace (what you call “no spiritual life”).

 

[NotWorthy]

Mikeledes,

It is superficial interpretations of scripture like this one that enables perverted doctrines such as Pedo-baptism.

It is irresponsible to take verses out of text in the first place, but then to interpret them in such an elementary fashion is reckless.

John,
www.gideonsword.net

As explained much, much earlier in the thread, these superficial and reckless interpretations have been the practice of the Church since Apostolic times. I’m going to stick with the Church’s interpretations if you don’t mind.

 

[bibleapologist]

Notworthy,

We inherit the effects of Adam’s sin: Lack of Sanctifying Grace, what you call “no spiritual life”, and Concupiscience, or a natural inclination to sin.

Hey… we agree on something!

:clapping: :bounce: :whacky: :tiphat: :dancing:

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Notworthy,

As explained much, much earlier in the thread, these superficial and reckless interpretations have been the practice of the Church since Apostolic times. I’m going to stick with the Church’s interpretations if you don’t mind.

I respect your position.

John
www.gideonsword.net