Baptism by Heretics

[Turtullian]

  VIII. About Baptism by Heretics.

For they who have received baptism from heretics, not having been previously baptized, are to be confirmed by imposition of hands with only the invocation of the Holy Ghost, because they have received the bare form of baptism without the power of sanctification4 . And this regulation, as you know; we require to be kept in all the churches, that the font once entered may not be defiled by repetition, as the Lord says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” And that washing may not be polluted by repetition, but, as we have said, only the sanctification of the Holy Ghost invoked, that what no one can receive from heretics may be obtained from catholic priests. This letter of ours, which we have sent in reply to the inquiries of the brotherhood you shall bring to the knowledge of all your brethren and fellow-bishops of the province, that our authority, now that it is given, may avail for the general observance. Dated 21st March, in the consulship of Majorian Augustus (458).

haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf212/npnf2256.htm

This was stated by Pope Leo the Great on the question of the validity but fruitllessness of Baptisms performed by heretical baptism. Yet the catechism states that Baptisms by those outside the church are valid and sacramental. Can anybody answer this question?

 

[Genesis315]

haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf212/npnf2256.htm

This was stated by Pope Leo the Great on the question of the validity but fruitllessness of Baptisms performed by heretical baptism. Yet the catechism states that Baptisms by those outside the church are valid and sacramental. Can anybody answer this question?

Can you direct me to the appropriate Catechism section? Thanks!

 

[Turtullian]

Can you direct me to the appropriate Catechism section? Thanks!

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf212/npnf2256.htm

This was stated by Pope Leo the Great on the question of the validity but fruitllessness of Baptisms performed by heretical baptism. Yet the catechism states that Baptisms by those outside the church are valid and sacramental. Can anybody answer this question?

I have never looked at the RCIA Rites and prayers for Candidates. But I would guess that they supply some if not all of the Solemn Baptismal Rites. Today if someone receives the “the bare form of baptism” the Church supplies the additional prayers and Rites at a later time. There I believe is a great difference between “fruitlessness” and “ineffectiveness”.

 

[Genesis315]

If we follow the footnotes, that statement comes from here:

Council of Florence:

"For, by baptism we are reborn spiritually…Three of the sacraments, namely baptism, confirmation and orders, imprint indelibly on the soul a character, that is a kind of stamp which distinguishes it from the rest. Hence they are not repeated in the same person…Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church…But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. "

and here:

Second Vatican Council:

“Baptism therefore establishes a sacramental bond of unity which links all who have been reborn by it. But of itself Baptism is only a beginning, an inauguration wholly directed toward the fullness of life in Christ. Baptism, therefore, envisages a complete profession of faith, complete incorporation in the system of salvation such as Christ willed it to be, and finally complete ingrafting in eucharistic communion.”

I don’t think St. Leo is saying it is not sacramental, he is just distinguishing its effects from the fullness described by Vatican II above. He implies their Baptism has some power, since it is not to be repeated. Notice he is distinguishing what is given by priests alone (which includes Bishops)–Baptism’s power was never restricted to only that given by priests. As Vatican II explained, the full power of sanctification (salvation) is only found within complete communion with the Catholic Church. Therefore, those Baptized, yet obstinate heretics would be deprived of this power of sanctification, being Baptized (with the indelible mark), but also being outside the Church–which they would receive by coming into full Communion by repentence, Confirmation (and reception of the Eucharist).

St. Leo speaks in general of heretics (which in his day implied formal heretics) whereas the Catechism speaks implicitly of those in good faith, those who have not separated themselves from the only source of sanctification.

 

[puzzleannie]

haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf212/npnf2256.htm

This was stated by Pope Leo the Great on the question of the validity but fruitllessness of Baptisms performed by heretical baptism. Yet the catechism states that Baptisms by those outside the church are valid and sacramental. Can anybody answer this question?

I am not seeing the problem, the quote given instructs that those baptized by heretics must receive the completion of the rite and the imposition of the HOly Spirit, which is what we would now call the sacrament of confirmation. This is current practice, and is what occurs in RCIA when a baptized non-Catholic is received into full communion with the Catholic Church. He makes a profession of faith, the anointing and invocation of the Holy Spirit is done in Confirmation, he is admitted to the Eucharist, and the prayers of the rites supply whatever what missing in the baptismal rites. Valid baptism is never repeated.

 

[1ke]

haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf212/npnf2256.htm

This was stated by Pope Leo the Great on the question of the validity but fruitllessness of Baptisms performed by heretical baptism. Yet the catechism states that Baptisms by those outside the church are valid and sacramental. Can anybody answer this question?

You misunderstand what Leo is saying.

What he is saying is that they have not received Confirmation, full initiation into the Church, which is to be done by the imposition of hands by a Catholic bishop/priest.

See another of his letters, in which a similar question is asked/answered (Question 18):

newadvent.org/fathers/3604167.htm

And, this letter also addresses baptism by heretics, in which Leo calls it a baptism of regeneration:

newadvent.org/fathers/3604166.htm

 

[Turtullian]

You misunderstand what Leo is saying.

What he is saying is that they have not received Confirmation, full initiation into the Church, which is to be done by the imposition of hands by a Catholic bishop/priest.

See another of his letters, in which a similar question is asked/answered (Question 18):

newadvent.org/fathers/3604167.htm

And, this letter also addresses baptism by heretics, in which Leo calls it a baptism of regeneration:

newadvent.org/fathers/3604166.htm

I see. Thanks to the both of you.

 

[Proletarian]

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

I can see from the Fathers of the Church that Baptism performed by Heretics can indeed be valid, and in this sense I agree with the Catechism. But where in Vatican 2 (or anywhere else) does it say that non Catholics have the “right to be called Christian”?

Why are we to consider Protestants, or any other heretic Christian?

 

[Nita]

I think Pope Leo may have been referring to the Sacrament of Confirmation which can only be conferred by the ordained.

VIII. About Baptism by Heretics.

For they who have received baptism from heretics, not having been previously baptized, are to be confirmed by imposition of hands with only the invocation of the Holy Ghost, because they have received the bare form of baptism without the power of sanctification4 . And this regulation, as you know; we require to be kept in all the churches, that the font once entered may not be defiled by repetition, as the Lord says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” And that washing may not be polluted by repetition, but, as we have said, only the sanctification of the Holy Ghost invoked, that what no one can receive from heretics may be obtained from catholic priests. This letter of ours, which we have sent in reply to the inquiries of the brotherhood you shall bring to the knowledge of all your brethren and fellow-bishops of the province, that our authority, now that it is given, may avail for the general observance. Dated 21st March, in the consulship of Majorian Augustus (458).

Don’t have the time now, but will do some checking later to see if it was at one time custom to confer the two sacraments together; Confirmation immediately after Baptism.

Nita

 

[joshua_b]

Why are we to consider Protestants, or any other heretic Christian?

As long as they are validly baptized, they are members of the Church, and membership to the Body of Christ is irrevocable. They may be guilty of “material” heresy, and may not be in union with the Church, but the mark of valid baptism is immutable, and they are still technically members of the Body of Christ. Thus, they are Christian. It’s not about their “rights” so much as it simply “is what it is”.

 

[Nita]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm

confirmatio, a making fast or sure; teleiosis or consummatio, a perfecting or** completing**, as expressing its relation to baptism. With reference to its effect it is the “Sacrament of the Holy Ghost”, the “Sacrament of the Seal” (signaculum, sigillum, sphragis). From the external rite it is known as the "imposition of hands"

(Under RECIPIENT)
In the early ages of the Church, confirmation was part of the rite of initiation, and consequently was administered immediately after baptism. When, however, baptism came to be conferred by simple priests, the two ceremonies were separated in the Western Church. …

In the Greek Church and in Spain, infants are now, as in earlier times, confirmed immediately after baptism. Leo XII, writing 22 June, 1807, to the Bishop of Marseilles, commends most heartily the practice of confirming children before their first communion as being more in accord with the ancient usage of the Church.

Nita