Baptism dilemma/Need advice

[sandmountainsli]

Hard question here.
I am Congregational Methodist, my estranged wife is Southern Baptist, we have an eight month old daughter.
I believe that it is right to baptise infants and children and my estranged wife does not.
Would I be in the wrong and in error to secretly baptise my daughter without her mother’s permission?
Please help me with this.
WP

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is a very difficult situation and you have my prayers.

You speak of your estranged wife. I presume that you are separated and that the child is with your wife mostly.

You should (I think) go for a separation agreement and if necessary, use mediators, and in the agreement this subject should be addressed. It is usually easier for both parties to have an impartial ‘third party’ to discuss things with so that it doesn’t turn into constant power plays. (I know from personal experience).

Until this is settled out legally, I do not think you should baptize secretly. First, unless you wind up with full custody of your daughter, how are you even going to enforce that she is brought up in the faith? And if your wife ‘changes her mind’ later, and you’re already baptized your daughter, that is going to make for a very unhappy situation regarding your trustworthiness.

God bless.

 

[sandmountainsli]

This is a very difficult situation and you have my prayers.

You speak of your estranged wife. I presume that you are separated and that the child is with your wife mostly.
.

Yes,
We are legally separated and share joint custody with her mother being primary caregiver due to my work schedule, I have her two days per week.
WP

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

If you are a Congregational Methodist, the best person to ask would be a Methodist minister, IMOHO. He could fill you in on the requirements, such as both parents agreeing to the baptism. Do you want your daughter to be baptized Catholic? That part confuses me.

Awhile back, a Catholic man posted here that his Methodist wife would consider nothing but a Methodist baptism for their son, after she promised to raise any children of the marriage as Catholic; in fact, the wife wanted two baptisms as a compromise (wrong on all counts). He, of course, wanted it in the Catholic church. The United Methodists had a web site that had the information he needed to convince her (somewhat reluctantly, to my memory) that the water could be poured in the Catholic parish without any qualms and “count” for the Methodists, who would offer a welcoming prayer for the baby in regular services after the Catholic baptism.

While the story doesn’t help you, the web site might. It’s umc.org/site/c.lwL4KnN1LtH/b.1353935/k.BE6A/Home.htm.

If you are looking for specifics of infant baptism in Scripture, they start in Acts with “whole household being added to their number”. That will take a little homework on your part. You can check with Open Bible or whatever you use on the Internet. The Catholic Catechism lists Colossians 1:12-14, but I don’t see how that one is going to convince your wife.

This is what our catechism states, but again, I don’t see how it’s going to help you:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53Faith and Baptism
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”
1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.
1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized—child or adult—on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1

 

[1ke]

Parents are responsible for their children’s souls. Children should be baptized.

Personall-- If it were my child, I would baptize her in secret rather than let her go without. But, that would be after trying to get her mother to agree to it.

 

[otjm]

Baptism is necessary, according to the Gospels. However, we do not live in a vacuum. The child needs to be part of the Christian community, and that is done not in secret but in conjunction with the Church.

My condolances to your family situation. It is not going to be made easier by further dispute with your wife, not will it be made easier if you should baptize the child against your wife’s wishes. You and she may be separated, but she is still the child’s mother, just as you are still the father.

It is at best difficult to keep personal issues (between you and your wife) out of the realm of issues about your child. Further, there is a tendency by many who have been separated or divorced to fight battles through the children, and there are not a few children who have been “snatched”; taken by one parent and moved either to a distant location, or “dissapeared” by one as a retaliation to the other parent, either because of disputes over raising the child, or for other perceived wrongs. Keep that in mind as you ponder the issue of baptism.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Baptism is necessary, according to the Gospels. However, we do not live in a vacuum. The child needs to be part of the Christian community, and that is done not in secret but in conjunction with the Church.

My condolances to your family situation. It is not going to be made easier by further dispute with your wife, not will it be made easier if you should baptize the child against your wife’s wishes. You and she may be separated, but she is still the child’s mother, just as you are still the father.

It is at best difficult to keep personal issues (between you and your wife) out of the realm of issues about your child. Further, there is a tendency by many who have been separated or divorced to fight battles through the children, and there are not a few children who have been “snatched”; taken by one parent and moved either to a distant location, or “dissapeared” by one as a retaliation to the other parent, either because of disputes over raising the child, or for other perceived wrongs. Keep that in mind as you ponder the issue of baptism.

In all honour this is not a “power play” or weapon I am using against my wife, I just believe Baptism to be necessary and worry about my little girl.
WP

 

[rwoehmke]

If she is baptized in the Methodist Church, won’t the baptism be null in the eyes of the Baptist Church? In other words can’t be effective unless the child is old enough to make a proper commitment and her own decision to be baptized.

 

[sandmountainsli]

If she is baptized in the Methodist Church, won’t the baptism be null in the eyes of the Baptist Church?

Yes,
Most Baptist churches reject Methodist baptism especially that of infants (and anyone not submerged) but so far my little one has only attended Methodist Church with me, I take her every sunday which she is with me, the wife while a Baptist does not attend church of any sort.
WP

 

[Aramis]

Parents are responsible for their children’s souls. Children should be baptized.

Personall-- If it were my child, I would baptize her in secret rather than let her go without. But, that would be after trying to get her mother to agree to it.

As would I.

 

[otjm]

In all honour this is not a “power play” or weapon I am using against my wife, I just believe Baptism to be necessary and worry about my little girl.
WP

I understand, and I don’t question that; but read my post again. You are both her parents, and right now you two probably could agree on weather it is raining or sunny out, or whether she should wear the green outfit or instead study physics.

Baptism is necessary, but it is also something that is done in community. Since you and your wife cannot agree on the definition of community (does it mean Methodist? Baptist? Evangelical? Fundamental? Catholic?) you have an initial problem; however, that initial problem is compounded by the fact that you two are separated, and since you say “estranged” I am assuming that neither of you have filed for divorce.

That puts you into a rather delicate situation concerning custody and visitation. Go baptize your daughter and you may find that you see very little of her because of a Court ruling, or your other half splits with the daughter and you don’t see her again, or again for a very long time.

In plain English, if you want to protect your visitation/custody rights, you need to hire the onryest s.o.b. in the valley divorce attorney and make the first strike - or in the alternative, make the first move to resolve the issues and be prepared for a scorched earth type of battle over your child. And if you moved out of the family home, you made the most egregious mistake you could have, short of doing something that would get you into a domestice violence hearing.

Until you resolve those issues, the baptism is going to be a high risk adventure if that is something your wife is adamant about. Cross that line, and get found out, and you may spend many months and years wishing you had handled it differently. Doing it in secret is not something that will necessarily stay a secret (it is truly amazing what children tell the other parent; there are very very few real secrets). Kids have a very accurate and sensitive radar; tell her what you are doing and she can’t tell momma, anda you’ve just about guaranteed she will. Do it without telling her what you are doing, and she will sense something strange, and describe it to momma. In short, there are no secrets and you need to live your life around your daughter accordingly. You would be safer telling your wife to stick it, that you are having her baptized, that she is welcome to come, and it will be within 24 hours. Neither is going to resolve issues between you and your wife in a way you may want them resolved; unless what you want is war.

At 8 months (ok, ok, it helps to read before I write) she may not be able to tell momma. But you are presuming that it won’t come out anywhere. It will; those things just seem to not be able to stay secret. I don’t question your concern for your daughter. On the other hand, she has made it 8 months, and unless she is in serious danger of dying, she is probably going to make it a lot farther. And in fact, you did not have her baptized right after birth.

I do not question the fact that you feel strongly about this, but I do question that your motives are absolutely pure. This is an area of contention in a marriage that reeks of contention. Be very very careful that you do not play a card that has other motives attached to it also. NOTE: I said “also”. If you do not have a marriage/diovorce counselor, get one, and do so right away. The situation you are in is one of the most tumultous a person can go through, with tremendous emotional upheaval. You would be wise to get some professional guidance, and you can bring this question to them along with the others you have.

 

[sandmountainsli]

I understand, and I don’t question that; but read my post again. You are both her parents, and right now you two probably could agree on weather it is raining or sunny out, or whether she should wear the green outfit or instead study physics.

Baptism is necessary, but it is also something that is done in community. Since you and your wife cannot agree on the definition of community (does it mean Methodist? Baptist? Evangelical? Fundamental? Catholic?) you have an initial problem; however, that initial problem is compounded by the fact that you two are separated, and since you say “estranged” I am assuming that neither of you have filed for divorce.

That puts you into a rather delicate situation concerning custody and visitation. Go baptize your daughter and you may find that you see very little of her because of a Court ruling, or your other half splits with the daughter and you don’t see her again, or again for a very long time.

In plain English, if you want to protect your visitation/custody rights, you need to hire the onryest s.o.b. in the valley divorce attorney and make the first strike - or in the alternative, make the first move to resolve the issues and be prepared for a scorched earth type of battle over your child. And if you moved out of the family home, you made the most egregious mistake you could have, short of doing something that would get you into a domestice violence hearing.

Until you resolve those issues, the baptism is going to be a high risk adventure if that is something your wife is adamant about. Cross that line, and get found out, and you may spend many months and years wishing you had handled it differently. Doing it in secret is not something that will necessarily stay a secret (it is truly amazing what children tell the other parent; there are very very few real secrets). Kids have a very accurate and sensitive radar; tell her what you are doing and she can’t tell momma, anda you’ve just about guaranteed she will. Do it without telling her what you are doing, and she will sense something strange, and describe it to momma. In short, there are no secrets and you need to live your life around your daughter accordingly. You would be safer telling your wife to stick it, that you are having her baptized, that she is welcome to come, and it will be within 24 hours. Neither is going to resolve issues between you and your wife in a way you may want them resolved; unless what you want is war.

At 8 months (ok, ok, it helps to read before I write) she may not be able to tell momma. But you are presuming that it won’t come out anywhere. It will; those things just seem to not be able to stay secret. I don’t question your concern for your daughter. On the other hand, she has made it 8 months, and unless she is in serious danger of dying, she is probably going to make it a lot farther. And in fact, you did not have her baptized right after birth.

I do not question the fact that you feel strongly about this, but I do question that your motives are absolutely pure. This is an area of contention in a marriage that reeks of contention. Be very very careful that you do not play a card that has other motives attached to it also. NOTE: I said “also”. If you do not have a marriage/diovorce counselor, get one, and do so right away. The situation you are in is one of the most tumultous a person can go through, with tremendous emotional upheaval. You would be wise to get some professional guidance, and you can bring this question to them along with the others you have.

Yes, Divorce has already been filed but we are still in the proceedings, I have been the one to remain at our home and I have an excellent attorney. Believe me I would be as concerned about this issue even if we were not estranged and my wife were living here, I have begged her to go to church with me for some time now and she always has one excuse or another, I even offered to go to the Baptist Church with her but she also wouldn’t do that. I intend on raising my daughter in church as much as is possible, it is important that she knows of the love and power of Our Lord.
WP

 

[otjm]

Yes, Divorce has already been filed but we are still in the proceedings, I have been the one to remain at our home and I have an excellent attorney. Believe me I would be as concerned about this issue even if we were not estranged and my wife were living here, I have begged her to go to church with me for some time now and she always has one excuse or another, I even offered to go to the Baptist Church with her but she also wouldn’t do that. I intend on raising my daughter in church as much as is possible, it is important that she knows of the love and power of Our Lord.
WP

Then stay the course. Do the best that you can, and if you can do so, go for custody. I don’t know what that kind of battle may cost, but I would be surprised if you could do it for less than $30,000, and the tops is like asking how high is up…
If you do achieve custody, then you will be able to determine the issue. And another thought is a modified form of joint custody; but be careful of what you agree to. Sometimes the looming prospect of a full-blown custody battle can induce a settlement for joint custody (assuming your state accepts that) in a “half a loaf is better than crumbs” reasoning. I don’t know where you are in the pleadings or what you have porposed for custody, but get that resolved and the issue of baptism and authority to decide may resolve itself.But beware; if you end up on the short end of custody, getting the child baptized later may be viewed by a Court as a power play indicating that you do not have the best interests of the child at heart, as that, rather than eternal issues, are what Courts look at.

Baptize the child, she screams “foul” and “power play” and that is most likely what the Court will hear, not your plea for your daughter’s eternal safety. And you will not like the results, I guarantee it.

 

[jmcrae]

Parents are responsible for their children’s souls. Children should be baptized.

Personall-- If it were my child, I would baptize her in secret rather than let her go without. But, that would be after trying to get her mother to agree to it.

The problem with baptizing her in secret is that you would have to keep it a secret from the child, so that she wouldn’t let it out to the mother or to the grandparents.

Things could end up getting pretty messy, if she were to proceed on the assumption that she is not baptized, when in fact, she is.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Then stay the course. Do the best that you can, and if you can do so, go for custody. I don’t know what that kind of battle may cost, but I would be surprised if you could do it for less than $30,000, and the tops is like asking how high is up…

Baptize the child, she screams “foul” and “power play” and that is most likely what the Court will hear, not your plea for your daughter’s eternal safety. And you will not like the results, I guarantee it.

I understand.
It is looking like a modified joint custody shall be the final settlement unless she goes “nuts” at the last moment and decided she wants a fight which I hope doesn’t happen. I suppose I could work on baptism later after all is settled but I feel responsible for my daughter’s eternal safety, I shall just continue to pray for her continually as I have been doing and I shall ask the church to do so also.
WP

 

[Zooey]

Well, I’d baptize her myself, but:shrug: I’m ornery that way…and that doesn’t help you, I’m sure.
First of all: You & your situation are in my prayers…

It is not clear to me why your wife would object, because in her eyes, it wouldn’t be a valid baptism anyway, however…Since this could become a real sticking point in the custody of your child, I think that you have to be really, really careful not to do anything that would jeopardize that.
On the other hand…Look, our Lord loves that little one even more than you do. I believe absolutely that she should be baptized. Not wait & see…But I also think that the advice to get a really good lawyer, & get the law behind you, before you have it done…Obviously, & God forbid, but if your daughter were ill or something, as I say, I’d just baptize her myself, rather than let it go in those circumstances. But as long as things are as they stand, I would work toward the day when you have a more settled situation, before doing anything to upset your ex.
God bless you & your little one. You are both in my prayers!!

 

[otjm]

I understand.
It is looking like a modified joint custody shall be the final settlement unless she goes “nuts” at the last moment and decided she wants a fight which I hope doesn’t happen. I suppose I could work on baptism later after all is settled but I feel responsible for my daughter’s eternal safety, I shall just continue to pray for her continually as I have been doing and I shall ask the church to do so also.
WP

Does she have an attorney, and if so, are they any good? Last minute mental meltdowns don’t make for good testimony; in fact, they usually work against the party.

Modifed joint giving you the effective control, or her? If it is her, the problem persists.

 

[LapsedAtheist]

I suppose I could work on baptism later after all is settled but I feel responsible for my daughter’s eternal safety, I shall just continue to pray for her continually as I have been doing and I shall ask the church to do so also.
WP

What you propose seems an odd course of action for someone concerned with his child’s “eternal safety”.

Acting in secret to thwart the will of the child’s mother would be a rather odd way to teach the fourth commandment, especially if the child is told to lie about what happened (which itself would be an odd way to teach the eighth commandment).

If you truly believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church, why would you baptise your child into a situation that seems, IMO, to be rife with mortal sin for her?