Baptism discussion

[SANxJONERO]

I’m trying to get some answers on baptism, because I had some Apostolic friends bring up bapstism topics & I couldn’t come up with answers for everything discussed. 1 of my friend says I need to be baptized, so my sins will be forgiven & she knows I was baptized when I was a baby. She uses how Jesus got baptized at the age of 30 as an example of why I should get baptized again, but then her son says it doesn’t matter as long as I was baptized in Jesus’ name & that pretty much my whole body was immersed when I got baptized.

I’m sure most of us know we get baptized to get rid of “original sin”, so I don’t see why I would need to be as old as she thinks I need to be & someone told me that Jesus got baptized at 30 due to it being a requirement on becoming a priest. Now if she is talking about sin in general, then I don’t know why I don’t see her telling her son that’s never been married with 2 kids the same. She told my friend that I wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name, because I’m Catholic & I said I’m pretty sure I was. My friend who is the son said that I should check how I got baptized & that it has to be in Jesus’ name only (not the father, the son & the holy spirit).

Even if I was baptized under “the father, the son & the holy spirit”, then I don’t see how that is not under the name of Jesus. Now what about this whole thing about all of your body going under water during a baptism? How come we don’t baptize like that & how do we know our way is fine? What do you think about all this & can you give me some answers?

 

[Thais]

Hello, welcome to the CAF.

It seems there’s a lot of confusion going on in these discussions with your friends. I wanted to give you some facts and Scripture passages that will hopefully clarify any doubts you might have and empower you to be able to help them.

If you were baptized as a baby, I’m assuming in the Catholic Church, your baptism is valid and sufficient, according to Jesus’ command after his Resurrection, right before his Ascension, which can be found in Scripture. I’ll get to that later.

We can only be baptized once. Even if you tried repeating the process, it wouldn’t have any real effect, nothing would happen in the spiritual realm. There is no such thing is rebaptizing, or baptizing anyone again.
Baptism is the Sacrament of Initiation that brings us into the Body of Christ, the Church. It is our spiritual birth and corresponds to our natural birth. That’s when we receive the gift of Faith and the Holy Spirit.

It erases original sin (and any personal sin a person might have had at the time).
After baptism, any new personal sin must be individually confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which corresponds, in the natural life, to our need of treatment against diseases.

Baptism gives us a spiritual and indelible mark. The Catechism #698 says:

“The Father has set his seal” on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders, the image of the seal has been used in some theological traditions to express the indelible “character” imprinted by these three unrepeatable sacraments.

Here are the quotes mentioned in the Catechism:

Joh 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.

2Co 1:21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God;
2Co 1:22 he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.

Eph 1:22 And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Eph 4:29 No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Now, let’s separate 3 totally different ideas of baptism, in chronological order.

1. St. John the Baptist is the link between the Old and New Testament. He was the last of all the Old Testament Prophets, who announced Jesus’ coming, and is considered the greatest because he actually met Jesus personally and introduced him to society, saying “This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. As all of the prophets before him, his mission was to prepare the way of the Lord. So before Jesus’ first public appearance, he had been gathering the people and ministering a baptism of repentance in order to prepare them spiritually for Jesus’ revelation. This baptism was with water, but he himself made it very clear that later there would be a true baptism with the Holy Spirit, given by the One who would come after him and who is above him.
2. On the same day that Jesus finally appeared in public and St. John the Baptist had the chance to present him to the crowd by the Jordan river as the Lamb of God, Jesus told St. John to baptize Him. Jesus did so, not because he needed to erase original sin, Jesus had no original or personal sin, He is God, He was begotten, not created. He had St. John baptize him so that He could bless the waters of baptism, of our baptism, that He was still going to institute.
3. Finally, there’s our Christian Baptism, which is what you received and what we’re talking about in this thread. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Baptism, commanding us to go and baptize the whole world in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

(to be continued…)

 

[Thais]

(continuing…)

Here are some of the Scriptures I’m talking about:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:6 A man named John was sent from God.
Joh 1:7 He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:15 John testified to him and cried out, saying, This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’
Joh 1:23 He said: I am ‘the voice of one crying out in the desert, Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.
Joh 1:25 They asked him, Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah or Elijah or the Prophet?
Joh 1:26 John answered them, I baptize with water; but there is one among you whom you do not recognize,
Joh 1:27 the one who is coming after me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to untie.
Joh 1:28 This happened in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:30 He is the one of whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’
Joh 1:31 I did not know him, but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.
Joh 1:32 John testified further, saying, I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him.
Joh 1:33 I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’
Joh 1:34 Now I have seen and testified that he is the Son of God.

So the fact that Jesus blessed the waters for Baptism and then instituted the Sacrament when he was 30 has nothing to do with the age that we are supposed to receive it. Because we need it, while He never needed it. Baptism is the door to our salvation, and Jesus said “let the little ones come to me”, so the earlier the better.

Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Just like it doesn’t make any sense to say “I’m not going to be a Catholic, I’m going to become a Jew, because Jesus was Jewish and not Catholic”, you can’t compare His Baptism to ours. Jesus didn’t come to fit into anything, He came to start His Own Church, like He said. And the Church He started is the Catholic Church. Of course He wasn’t a cradle Catholic, because the Church didn’t exist until He founded it, as an adult. Same reason why He didn’t get baptized as a baby, because He hadn’t instituted the Sacrament yet.

Now, of course, everything that we do as Christians, every breath we take, is (or at least should be) in Jesus’ name. Every tiny little thing that we do, we should do it for Jesus, only because we believe that Jesus wants us to do it. And that means all that we do, we do in His name.
However, this has nothing to do with the formula of Baptism, which is exactly the opposite of what your friends told you. The proper method of performing Baptisms is to baptize in the name of the Most Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), because that’s the way Jesus ordered us to do it.
We still do it for Him, because He told us to do it (so it’s just like any other act that we do in His name, in His person, like when someone signs something in someone’s name), but the words we say, are the words He gave us to say and here’s the Scripture that I’m talking about:

Mat 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Finally, about immersion in the water. That’s one way to do it, and we Catholics do it that way a lot of times, but it is not a requirement. Another way to do it is by pouring the water.
Now, we know that Jesus was immersed, but the only requirement that Jesus established for us to do it is that it must be with water (and of course obeying the formula discussed above).

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Joh 3:6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

And we don’t make things up as we go along. He never said the person needs to be immersed, and He was the one that instituted the Sacrament Himself. So ask your friends to show you where exactly Jesus makes that restriction in the Bible. And may God bless you.

 

[SANxJONERO]

Thanks for the replies. The bible also mentions to baptize in Jesus’ name, which I guess they take litterally. Now about the whole immersing thing, it is said that baptizing came from a word that meant immerse & it seems like immersing is the way baptisms were done. That’s where my friends get all this from.

 

[Thais]

Yes, the Bible mentions that, which appears contradictory to what Jesus said. However, there is no contradiction.
First, let me just point out the important distinction between what anybody else says in the Bible and what Jesus says in the Bible. If there ever seems to be a contradiction, who would you believe? Mere men, or Jesus, who is God?
Now, the reason why this is not a contradiction is what I said before. Later when the apostles talk about baptizing people in Jesus’ name, they are not talking about how they’re going to do it, they literally mean: let’s do it, in His place, in His person, in His name, for Him, as He commanded us to.
They’re not saying “let’s go baptize that person in such and such way”. If they were, the Bible would be contradicting itself, which is impossible, because it’s God’s word.

The word baptism basically means “to dip, to immerse, to wash”. And yes in the Early Church we did it by immersion. There is still nothing saying that it must be done this way always.
There is something called discipline and something called doctrine. Discipline is about details on how we do certain things and can change, doctrine is a matter or eternal truth and will never change. Immersion is discipline. The formula and the matter (water) are doctrine, because of how strongly Jesus made this clear.

 

[SANxJONERO]

Thank you & I am thankful for this forum. I was looking for answers & I was provided with them here. If this forum wasn’t here I’d probably have a harder time finding the answers I was looking for.

 

[SANxJONERO]

Another thing my friend mentioned & also other Christians. He said when we go into the water, it’s like Jesus going into the grave & then we come out forgiven of our sins just like how Jesus came from the grave.

 

[FCEGM]

Another thing my friend mentioned & also other Christians. He said when we go into the water, it’s like Jesus going into the grave & then we come out forgiven of our sins just like how Jesus came from the grave.

That’s very true. However, unlike Jesus, we can sin - even after being baptized into His death and resurrection, thus the Sacrament of Penance is given that we may be cleansed of those sins committed after our baptism.

 

[SANxJONERO]

That’s very true. However, unlike Jesus, we can sin - even after being baptized into His death and resurrection, thus the Sacrament of Penance is given that we may be cleansed of those sins committed after our baptism.

OK, but some Catholics don’t get baptized like that. I guess some do, while some just get a lil water on their head.

 

[LSK]

OK, but some Catholics don’t get baptized like that. I guess some do, while some just get a lil water on their head.

Again, what you need to remember is that the form of the Sacrament of Baptism does not REQUIRE immersion. When we are baptized, whether it be through full immersion or with the ‘sprinkling’ of the water on our heads as infants or adults, what is necessary is that the form and matter be correct. The form is saying, “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of The Holy Spirit” to indicate our belief in the TRINITARIAN GOD. The matter is water.

What is symbolized by the Sacrament and what actually happens as a result of the Sacrament are two different things.

 

[SANxJONERO]

Again, what you need to remember is that the form of the Sacrament of Baptism does not REQUIRE immersion. When we are baptized, whether it be through full immersion or with the ‘sprinkling’ of the water on our heads as infants or adults, what is necessary is that the form and matter be correct. The form is saying, “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of The Holy Spirit” to indicate our belief in the TRINITARIAN GOD. The matter is water.

What is symbolized by the Sacrament and what actually happens as a result of the Sacrament are two different things.

OK, but of course it wouldn’t be to indicate something such as an infant couldn’t confirm.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m trying to get some answers on baptism, because I had some Apostolic friends bring up bapstism topics & I couldn’t come up with answers for everything discussed. 1 of my friend says I need to be baptized, so my sins will be forgiven & she knows I was baptized when I was a baby. She uses how Jesus got baptized at the age of 30 as an example of why I should get baptized again, but then her son says it doesn’t matter as long as I was baptized in Jesus’ name & that pretty much my whole body was immersed when I got baptized.

I’m sure most of us know we get baptized to get rid of “original sin”, so I don’t see why I would need to be as old as she thinks I need to be & someone told me that Jesus got baptized at 30 due to it being a requirement on becoming a priest. Now if she is talking about sin in general, then I don’t know why I don’t see her telling her son that’s never been married with 2 kids the same. She told my friend that I wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name, because I’m Catholic & I said I’m pretty sure I was. My friend who is the son said that I should check how I got baptized & that it has to be in Jesus’ name only (not the father, the son & the holy spirit).

Even if I was baptized under “the father, the son & the holy spirit”, then I don’t see how that is not under the name of Jesus. Now what about this whole thing about all of your body going under water during a baptism? How come we don’t baptize like that & how do we know our way is fine? What do you think about all this & can you give me some answers?

Keep in mind Jesus’s baptism was a Jewish baptism, not the Christian Sacrament and Jesus had no sins to forgive. Tell her that Jesus instituted another Sacrament to forgive sins after Baptism, called Reconciliation (Confession). You were Baptized as Jesus commanded “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Nowhere is immersion required for Baptism.

 

[Thais]

Another thing my friend mentioned & also other Christians. He said when we go into the water, it’s like Jesus going into the grave & then we come out forgiven of our sins just like how Jesus came from the grave.

There’s some truth in this. It is true that Baptism buries us with Jesus through His crucifixion, and raises us up from death into spiritual life through His resurrection:

Rom 6:3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.

But just because our human mind can easily associate the downward movement of immersion with the downward movement of burying (and then the upward of emerging and raising), it doesn’t mean that we need to do this movement in the Sacrament. If we started thinking that way, we would also have to make something up that resembles hanging on a cross and so forth.

Baptism effects many spiritual realities, and the external signs that we perform during the Sacrament are the way God chose to let us know when these beautiful realities are taking place. It is not a theater act to symbolize everything that is happening.

So let’s start trying to fantasize and make things up, let’s just stick with what Jesus commanded us to do, and that is, to say the Trinitarian formula and use the proper matter, which is water.

 

[FCEGM]

OK, but of course it wouldn’t be to indicate something such as an infant couldn’t confirm.

??? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. . .

 

[SANxJONERO]

??? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. . .

Forget it, I think I misunderstood what someone said.

 

[Thais]

OK, but of course it wouldn’t be to indicate something such as an infant couldn’t confirm.

What are you saying? That baptism can’t indicate something that an infant couldn’t accept through the use of reason?

If so, let me just tell you, that when we were baptized as babies, our parents and our godparents gave the assent of Faith in our name. And not only that, but they accepted the challenge and the responsibility to make certain that we learned and received this same Faith and that we were brought up and educated in Jesus.
So the Church welcomed us and allowed us to become its members, under the responsibility of our parents and godparents.
Remember that Jesus said not to keep the little ones from coming to Him.
Now, when adults are baptized, parents can’t respond for them because they aren’t in charge anymore, so the assent of Faith must come from the one to be baptized.

Besides, the Bible tells us that entire households were baptized by the Apostles. And that means, everybody in the family, including the children.

Act 16:14 One of them, a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth, from the city of Thyatira, a worshiper of God, listened, and the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what Paul was saying.
Act 16:15 After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home, and she prevailed on us.

1Co 1:14 I give thanks (to God) that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16 I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.

The reason we hear about so many adult baptisms in the Early Church is because the Catholic Church had just started. In order to grow, the Church had to go and preach to the existing adults.
Once it was totally spread out throughout the region (centuries later), it was basically a matter of maintaining itself, making sure the children were brought up already in the Church. There was no reason to wait for their mature age and take a chance on them dying or going astray into the arms of the Evil one in the meantime, just because that was when their parents came into Church.

 

[Thais]

Also, once children reach the age of reason, they have the chance to and must confirm this assent of Faith that their parents gave in their name, through the Sacrament of Confirmation.

In the Sacrament of Confirmation, which corresponds to our growing up in the natural life, we are confirmed as full members of the Church, and we receive a mission as a member, to be a witness (apostle) to Jesus, to go out and evangelize.

We receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism but in Confirmation we receive the fullness of the 7 gifts of the Spirit and we are sent forth with a mission to use these gifts in building up the Body of Christ.

 

[SANxJONERO]

What are you saying? That baptism can’t indicate something that an infant couldn’t accept through the use of reason?

If so, let me just tell you, that when we were baptized as babies, our parents and our godparents gave the assent of Faith in our name. And not only that, but they accepted the challenge and the responsibility to make certain that we learned and received this same Faith and that we were brought up and educated in Jesus.
So the Church welcomed us and allowed us to become its members, under the responsibility of our parents and godparents.
Remember that Jesus said not to keep the little ones from coming to Him.
Now, when adults are baptized, parents can’t respond for them because they aren’t in charge anymore, so the assent of Faith must come from the one to be baptized.

Besides, the Bible tells us that entire households were baptized by the Apostles. And that means, everybody in the family, including the children.

The reason we hear about so many adult baptisms in the Early Church is because the Catholic Church had just started. In order to grow, the Church had to go and preach to the existing adults.
Once it was totally spread out throughout the region (centuries later), it was basically a matter of maintaining itself, making sure the children were brought up already in the Church. There was no reason to wait for their mature age and take a chance on them dying or going astray into the arms of the Evil one in the meantime, just because that was when their parents came into Church.

I said forget it, but I guess you missed it. I misunderstood what someone said, thank you.

 

[SANxJONERO]

I saw a priest on tv talk about this the other day. He said Moses baptized people by putting them in the water, but that some people back then didn’t even get baptized w/water. He also mentioned how emersion can mean completely covered in water, but that it doesn’t have to mean the whole body either. I thought that was pretty kool how I turned the channel & saw this guy talking about this stuff.