Baptism during Holy Mass

[toknowservelove]

Okay, so I understand that baptisms can take place during Holy Mass. I even understand the reasons why some people think they should. But, here’s my question: what does that rite entail when performed during Holy Mass? Is it just the pouring of water with the trinitarian blessing and annointing with the chrism? The usual rite asks the parents several questions, doesn’t it? At what point of the Holy Mass should it take place?

I guess my problem is that I feel our priest is using the baptism as a substitute for the creed, and when there is a baptism he avoids any kind of credal formula–like asking the parents if they believe in God, or Jesus, or one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I also feel this way since he totally skipped the creed during one Christmas Mass–and I have to say that Christmas and the Annunciation are two of my favorite times to reverently recite the creed because we should kneel rather than bow at “by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary and BECAME MAN!” (my emphasis)

Am I making a mountain of a molehill? Do I need to detach and drop this or do I have a legitimate concern?

 

[puzzleannie]

Okay, so I understand that baptisms can take place during Holy Mass. I even understand the reasons why some people think they should.

It is not “some people” who think baptisms should ordinarily take place during Mass, it is the Church, and the rites provide for us, unless there is a good reason to do it outside Mass

But, here’s my question: what does that rite entail when performed during Holy Mass? Is it just the pouring of water with the trinitarian blessing and annointing with the chrism? The usual rite asks the parents several questions, doesn’t it? At what point of the Holy Mass should it take place?

the rite has several parts, begins at the entrance to the Church which is when the parents are asked what they want for their child from the Church.

I guess my problem is that I feel our priest is using the baptism as a substitute for the creed, and when there is a baptism he avoids any kind of credal formula–like asking the parents if they believe in God, or Jesus, or one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

There are I think 3 choices for the wording of the profession of faith, and all do not include the full credal statement. Your priest is no doubt choosing one of the other options. He is not skipping the Creed, the profession of faith in the rite of baptism replaces it.

I am only addressing the issue of baptism since that is the topic of the thread. Your priest seems to be doing the rite right, unless you have a copy of it in your hand and know for absolute fact he is not.

The issue of the creed at other Masses I cannot answer since you don’t say what he did or did not do.

 

[John_Lilburne]

… But, here’s my question: what does that rite entail when performed during Holy Mass? Is it just the pouring of water with the trinitarian blessing and annointing with the chrism? The usual rite asks the parents several questions, doesn’t it? At what point of the Holy Mass should it take place? …

From the Introduction to the Rite of Baptism of Children (of 1973):
“9. To bring out the paschal character of baptism, it is recommended that the sacrament be celebrated during the Easter Vigil or on Sunday, when the Church commemorates the Lord’s resurrection. On Sunday, baptism may be celebrated even during Mass, so that the entire community may be present and the relationship between baptism and eucharist may be clearly seen; but this should not be done too often. Regulations for the celebration of baptism during the Easter Vigil or at Mass on Sunday will be set out later.”
(Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 727.)

The Roman Missal has a ritual Mass for the baptism of children. It provides things like the Opening Prayer. But my understanding is that it does not have detailed rubrics, such as when the baptism takes place.

In 1984 there was the publication of the liturgical book Caeremoniale Episcoporum. This has been translated: Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9. It provides detailed instructions on how the baptism of children should be done in Mass, in n. 433 - 448. I will try to summarise these:

Usual entrance, reverence altar, bishop goes to chair, greets people and sits.

While the bishop sits, a priest goes to the door of the church and does the rite of reception of children as set out in “Rite of Baptism of Children” (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0.). This includes questions: “What name do you give your child?” “What do you ask of God’s Church for N.?” “… Do you clearly understand what you are undertaking?” To the godparents: “Are you ready to help these parents in their duty as Christian mothers and fathers?” There is signing of the child on the forehead by priest, parents and (if appropriate) godparents.

After these people at the door have entered and taken their place, the bishop stands. The penitential rite and Kyrie are omitted. There is the Opening Prayer, and liturgy of the word. The Profession of Faith is omitted. The bishop introduces the general intercessions. When they are finished he remains standing. A priest says the prayer of exorcism and does the prebaptismal anointing.

After this anointing there may be a procession to the baptistery. Or there may be a vessel of baptismal water set up in another place. Here the bishop introduces the next part of the ceremony. He blesses the water. He sits and addresses the parents and godparents, including questions including “Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?”. They respond: “I do.” The bishop does the baptism. If there is a large number of children priests and deacons are to join in baptising the children.

After the baptism the bishop sits. A priest does the anointing with chrism, clothing with the baptismal garment, presentation of a lighted candle, and ephphetha rite (if used). Then there may be procession back to the sanctuary.

Then the Mass continues in the usual way.

 

[Phemie]

The Rite of Baptism for Children sets the baptism after the Homily and Intercessions. The Intercessions are immediately followed by the Litany of the Saints and then the anointing with the Oil of Catechumen (optional).

As often as I’ve participated in the Rite, as parent, godparent, and baptismal prep team member, I can never remember if it’s then the Blessing of the Water followed by the Renunciation of Sin/Profession of Faith or vice versa. After that it’s the Consent, the Baptism (pouring or immersion), Anointing with Chrism, Presentation of the White Garment, Presentation of the Light and Ephpheta Rite (optional).

 

[toknowservelove]

Unless this priest is doing part of it before Mass, what is described here is not what is taking place. This is a LARGE parish, and there is almost always one baptism at the 10:30 mass. I don’t think it’s at other masses, but I may be wrong. So, I guess, that would be the “not done too often” part.

After the Homily, he asks the parents if they’d like to baptize their child into the Catholic church. Then the family/ godparents go to the vestibule where the baptismal fount is located. He baptizes in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They return to the front and he welcomes the child by name into the parish family. Then Father carries the baby down the center aisle and back while the organist plays a song, I don’t know the title of it, but it’s about God being there at all moments of life–birth, marriage, and death. (It bothers me that there isn’t a verse about choosing Holy Orders or Religious Life, but that’s a separate thread.)

Then Holy Mass continues as usual. I guess it’s just that as I’ve seen the Rite done at other times; there were a lot more questions asked of the parents and godparents. These questions were similar to the creed in that they were asking the child’s representatives if they believed in the teachings of the catholic Church and would agree to raise the child in the same beliefs.

When Father skipped the creed at Christmas, there was no baptism or any other rite. It was simply omitted. So, I guess, that’s what bothers me. There’s just an ooky feeling that SOMEthing is not quite right.

 

[puzzleannie]

why not start listening if the Creed is omitted regularly,since your instinct may be right, then simply ask Father about it. It is still possible the profession of faith was outside with the family before Mass, not quite right, but possible, same with blessing the water, anointing etc. There is an option for the congregation to respond or welcome the newly baptized, with or without a song, but it does not include putting the baby on the altar, processing her around church etc.

 

[Phemie]

why not start listening if the Creed is omitted regularly,since your instinct may be right, then simply ask Father about it. It is still possible the profession of faith was outside with the family before Mass, not quite right, but possible, same with blessing the water, anointing etc. There is an option for the congregation to respond or welcome the newly baptized, with or without a song, but it does not include putting the baby on the altar, processing her around church etc.

I know that I visited a parish where the Rite of Baptism was done over the course of at least 2 weeks. The greeting with the usual questions and the anointing with the Oil of Catechumens was done one week and the family returned the next for another part of the rite.

I must admit it surprised me and when I questioned my own pastor about it, he replied that he seemed to recall a document that forbid splitting the Rite into parts that way. I wonder if he was thinking of the admonition not to split the Mass into different locations, since that part of the Rite of Baptism is done on Holy Saturday morning with catechumens, isn’t it?

 

[puzzleannie]

I since that part of the Rite of Baptism is done on Holy Saturday morning with catechumens, isn’t it?

there is a provision for anointing with the oil of catechumens during the rites of Holy Saturday before the vigil (or other times during the catechumenate that are appropriate) but that does not apply to the Rite of Infant Baptism, where the anointing is with Chrism. There is also of course a possibility of putting it backwards, that is the water baptism in an emergency, followed by completion of the rite with anointing etc. at a later time. Phemie is wiser than I and will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Phemie]

there is a provision for anointing with the oil of catechumens during the rites of Holy Saturday before the vigil (or other times during the catechumenate that are appropriate) but that does not apply to the Rite of Infant Baptism, where the anointing is with Chrism. There is also of course a possibility of putting it backwards, that is the water baptism in an emergency, followed by completion of the rite with anointing etc. at a later time. Phemie is wiser than I and will correct me if I am wrong.

There are two anointings in the Rite of Baptism for Children: the optional anointing with the Oil of Catechumens, that occurs before the Blessing of the Water, and the anointing with the Sacred Chrism, immediately after the Baptism. In our parish, and in the parish I was visiting, the optional anointing with the Oil of Catechumens is not omitted.

Oh, for the record, while flattered that you consider me wiser, I think we just have different ‘expertise’ based on what we are specifically involved with in our own parishes.

 

[sandiego1969]

I know that I visited a parish where the Rite of Baptism was done over the course of at least 2 weeks. The greeting with the usual questions and the anointing with the Oil of Catechumens was done one week and the family returned the next for another part of the rite.

I must admit it surprised me and when I questioned my own pastor about it, he replied that he seemed to recall a document that forbid splitting the Rite into parts that way. I wonder if he was thinking of the admonition not to split the Mass into different locations, since that part of the Rite of Baptism is done on Holy Saturday morning with catechumens, isn’t it?

It is my understanding that Jesus is in the tomb on Holy Saturday morning and nothing sacramental, not a Mass, nothing is to be done then. The Easter Vigil Mass marks the Light of Christ rising from the tomb and is why adults are received into the Church at that time.