Baptism During Mass?

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I hope this is the right forum to ask this question as it is my first post. I have recently (~7 months ago) to a new location in another part of the country and subsequently have been going to a new church (surprise). Anyway, a few weeks ago my wife and I went to mass as usual and were a little surprised to find that there were several baptisms taking place as part of the mass. I thought it was odd and it stretched out the mass so that the next mass had to be delayed. The mass/baptisms took about 1:15 as I recall.
I guess I wasn’t the only one who thought it odd because at the next Sunday’s mass, the priest mentioned that some parishoners had voiced their surprise at the baptisms. He said “People, get over it.” and defended it using some reference to Vatican II.
Is this a common practise in other parishes (baptisms during masses)?
This particular priest has done other strange (to me) things so I may be back here with other questions :confused:
 
While it was perfectly licit for the baptisms to take place during a regular Sunday Mass, it was imprudent to do so since it delayed Masses that followed it. The baptisms should either have been scheduled for the last morning Mass and announced in the parish bulletin or been done after the last morning Mass.

And for the priest to simply tell people to “get over it” was disrespectful and arrogant, IMHO. If I were you folks, I’d find a different parish. If enough people left and took their contributions elsewhere, the priest would soon get the message.
 
It is not unusual for baptisms to be celebrated during Mass. In fact, it is part of the usual rite of baptism, because the whole Catholic community can welcome the newly baptized into the church. This is a parish celebration, not just a private or family isolated one. However, when it disrupts the nature of the balance of the masses, it would have been more practical to have this done at the last mass of the day rather than one in the middle of the morning schedule.
Check the parish schedule in the bulletin, when they do baptisms. We have designated weekends, even for different languages to make it more practical since we are multilingual parish.
 
We often have baptisms during our regular Sunday Masses, so it doesn’t seem unusual or strange. Our Sunday Masses are scheduled far enough apart that baptisms never cause a timing problem for the next Mass.

I personally like having the baptisms this way – as someone already said, the entire community (or at least the portion of it attending that Mass) can welcome the newly baptized. Otherwise, those of us with no children and no relatives in the area might not ever get to see a baptism (my church also has baptisms held outside of Mass; not everyone has their babies baptized during Mass).

Incidentally, I have only ever seen babies baptized during a regular Sunday Mass – anyone older gets baptized during the Easter Vigil (we had 17 this year!)
 
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JohnM:
I hope this is the right forum to ask this question as it is my first post. I have recently (~7 months ago) to a new location in another part of the country and subsequently have been going to a new church (surprise). Anyway, a few weeks ago my wife and I went to mass as usual and were a little surprised to find that there were several baptisms taking place as part of the mass. I thought it was odd and it stretched out the mass so that the next mass had to be delayed. The mass/baptisms took about 1:15 as I recall.
I guess I wasn’t the only one who thought it odd because at the next Sunday’s mass, the priest mentioned that some parishoners had voiced their surprise at the baptisms. He said “People, get over it.” and defended it using some reference to Vatican II.
Is this a common practise in other parishes (baptisms during masses)?
This particular priest has done other strange (to me) things so I may be back here with other questions :confused:
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I am assuming that where you state “a few weeks ago” that it wasn’t Easter Sunday.
 
Baptisms during mass are becoming more common. Where I am a lot of churches have one priest. Having baptisms on a Sunday as opposed to Saturday frees up the priest’s time for other aspects of their ministry.

I would hope that your priest is spending extra time on Saturday’s hearing confessions.
 
And there is never anything illict or wrong about celebrating ANY public Sacrament within the confines of a Mass.

Confirmations, Weddings, Ordinations and even Anointing of the Sick are also commonly and properly done within a Mass.

And I happen to agree with the priest, that people who find fault in that should ‘just get over it’. They are witnessing the birth of a new creation, a Sanctification of a new child of God. What could be more important in their lives than that?

If they had time to complain, they had time to witness it and rejoice.
 
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Brendan:
And there is never anything illict or wrong about celebrating ANY public Sacrament within the confines of a Mass.

Confirmations, Weddings, Ordinations and even Anointing of the Sick are also commonly and properly done within a Mass.

And I happen to agree with the priest, that people who find fault in that should ‘just get over it’. They are witnessing the birth of a new creation, a Sanctification of a new child of God. What could be more important in their lives than that?

If they had time to complain, they had time to witness it and rejoice.
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Brendan, I do believe that at least some of complaints came from those waiting to get into the following, delayed mass.
gelsbern, it was before Easter.
 
I should say that finding another parish has crossed my mind for sure but I want to give this one the full benefit of the doubt. It is the most vibrant parish I have seen in a long time. The place is overflowing at every mass. What a joy it is to see that. Even if I can no longer sit in the same pew week after week, I also no longer have to listen to my own footsteps echo off the walls of a mostly empty church 🙂 The parish has so many programs. Some for the youth, K of C, mens’club, womens club, seniors group, RICA, etc., etc… Someone told me there are over 50 of these groups and programs in the parish. They are even about to open thier brand new church even though the exisiting one looks newer than any back home where they seemed to be closing left and right. I think they must be doing some things right.
True, I was taken aback by how the priest responded to the perishioners but I am going to keep an open mind about it, for a while longer anyway.
It’s great to hear all of your opinions about this, thanks everyone.
 
I am reading directly from the book titled “Rite of Baptism for Children” by Catholic Book Publishers ISBN 089942-136-9

I also found it online
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/2/SubIndex/40/ContentIndex/92/Start/89

Anyway it states in Section III. Time and Place for the Baptism of Children

In the paragraph marked with a red 9 on page 20
To bring out the paschal character of baptism, it is recommended that the sacrament be celebrated during the Easter Vigil or on Sunday, when the Church commemorates the Lord’s resurrection. On Sunday, the baptism may be celebrated even during Mass, so that the entire community may be present and the relationship between baptism and the eucharist may be clearly seenl but this should not be done too often. Regulations for the celebration of baptism during the Easter Vigil or at Mass on Sunday will be set out later.
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That later is in Section VI titled Adaptations by the Minister

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/2/SubIndex/40/ContentIndex/95/Start/89
  1. If baptism takes place during Sunday Mass, the Mass for that Sunday is used, or, on the Sundays of the Christmas season and of Ordinary Time, the Mass for the Baptism of Children, and the celebration takes place as follows:
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The rite of receiving the children (nos. 33-43) takes place at the beginning of Mass and the greeting and penitential rite of the Mass are omitted.
In the liturgy of the word:
The readings are taken from the Mass of the Sunday. But in the Christmas season and in Ordinary Time they may also be taken from those given in the Lectionary for Mass (111, 474-489) or in this baptismal rite (nos. 44, 186-215). When a ritual Mass is prohibited, one of the readings may be taken from the texts provided for the celebration of baptism for children, with attention paid to the pastoral benefit of the faithful and the character of the liturgical day.
The homily is based on the sacred texts, but should take account of the baptism that is to take place.
The Credo is not said, since the profession of faith by the entire community before baptism takes its place.
The general intercessions are taken from those used in the rite of baptism (nos. 47-48). At the end, however, before the invocation of the saints, petitions are added for the universal Church and the needs of the world.
The celebration of baptism continues with the prayer of exorcism, anointing, and other ceremonies described in the rite (nos. 49-66).
After the celebration of baptism, the Mass continues in the usual way with the presentation of the gifts.
For the blessing at the end of Mass, the priest may use one of the formularies provided in the rite of baptism (nos. 70, 247-249).
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Of course you can read more, the entire rite is online
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/40/DocumentIndex/89

Your priest did nothing wrong at all. Just because it kept you in Mass a little longer, or delayed the start of the next Mass is no reason to not have baptisms during the Mass. Your priests response of just deal with it, in this case is perfectly appropriate.
 
I requested our daughter be baptised during the Mass as I had seen it done in more recent years. It was beautiful.
We love watching baptisms during Mass. Are we so quick to get out of Mass that we can’t stay 15 extra minutes to watch a baby become part of the family of God? Sheesh.
 
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rayne89:
We love watching baptisms during Mass. Are we so quick to get out of Mass that we can’t stay 15 extra minutes to watch a baby become part of the family of God? Sheesh.
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I would love to see Baptisms as a part of the Mass…but undoubtedly there would be parishioners who complained about it. Although I’d like to say get over it, I’d probably not have the nerve to actually say it like the priest did.

Penitent
 
Actually, I would have preferred a little explanation of why it was being done. It’s just more polite than *get over it. *This particular priest seems to do whatever he wants most of the time. It may be that I just have to get used to the style of this particular church, I don’t know. I am almost used to their “offeratory procession” which is also new to me. My wife seems to take these things in stride more than I do, except maybe for last Sunday when we were surprised by the First Communions that were a part of the mass. The all too familiar faces waiting to get into the next (Spanish) mass greeted us as we squeezed out the door after that mass.
Thanks for that information. It feels much better to read it in print. Now I know 🙂
 
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rayne89:
I requested our daughter be baptised during the Mass as I had seen it done in more recent years. It was beautiful.
We love watching baptisms during Mass. Are we so quick to get out of Mass that we can’t stay 15 extra minutes to watch a baby become part of the family of God? Sheesh.
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I only wish it was just 15 minutes. After the Baptisms and the Liturgical Dancers, and the birthdays, anniversaries, and visitors greetings at the end of the mass, it was at least another 30 mins.longer than usual. Still, you’re right, time is not an issue, not really. The issue I think was that the extension of the mid-morning mass inconvnienced those parishoners who wanted to be seated for the next mass at the ususal time.I’m sure that if those folks had known, they could have adjusted their own schedules accordingly. Maybe a little more communication could avoid future time conflicts.
 
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JohnM:
I only wish it was just 15 minutes. After the Baptisms and the Liturgical Dancers, and the birthdays, anniversaries, and visitors greetings at the end of the mass, it was at least another 30 mins.longer than usual. Still, you’re right, time is not an issue, not really. The issue I think was that the extension of the mid-morning mass inconvnienced those parishoners who wanted to be seated for the next mass at the ususal time.I’m sure that if those folks had known, they could have adjusted their own schedules accordingly. Maybe a little more communication could avoid future time conflicts.
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Liturgical Dancers?:eek: Now that is something to be concerned about because that is not allowed during Mass.
 
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rayne89:
Liturgical Dancers?:eek: Now that is something to be concerned about because that is not allowed during Mass.
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You know, I’d like to see a reference that says that rayne if you have one. It’s very strange to me. I thought it was strange when the priest goes between the aisles and holds hands during the Our Father too. I am one who just likes to fold my hands and bow my head in prayer. This is certainly a different way of doing things. I am glad to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks so.
 
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JohnM:
You know, I’d like to see a reference that says that rayne if you have one. It’s very strange to me. I thought it was strange when the priest goes between the aisles and holds hands during the Our Father too. I am one who just likes to fold my hands and bow my head in prayer. This is certainly a different way of doing things. I am glad to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks so.
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CONGREGATION FOR THE SACRAMENTS AND DIVINE WORSHIP
IN 1975

The following essay appeared in “Notitiae” 11 (1975) 202-205, and is labeled as a “qualified and authoritative sketch.” It is the mind of the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship (presently called Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) that this article is to be considered “an authoritative point of reference for every discussion on the matter.” Therefore, it is commended for study by diocesan liturgical commissions and offices of worship. (This English translation first appeared in The Canon Law Digest, Vol. VIII, pp. 78-82).

****THE RELIGIOUS DANCE, AN EXPRESSION OF SPIRITUAL JOY ****

The dance can be an art: a synthesis of the measured arts (music and poetry) and the spatial arts (architecture, sculpture, painting).

As an art which, by means of the body, expresses human feelings, the dance is especially adapted to signify joy.

Thus, among the mystics, we find intervals of dancing as an expression of the fullness of their love of God. Recall the cases of St. Theresa of Avila, St. Philip Neri, St. Gerard Majella.

When the Angelic Doctor wished to represent paradise, he represented it as a dance executed by angels and saints.

The dance can turn into prayer which expresses itself with a movement which engages the whole being, soul and body. Generally, when the spirit raises itself to God in prayer, it also involves the body.

One can speak of the prayer of the body. This can express its praise, it petition with movements, just as is said of the stars which by their evolution praise their Creator (cf. Baruch 3:34).

Various examples of this type of prayer are had in the Old Testament.

This holds true especially for primitive peoples. They express their religious sentiment with rhythmic movements.

Among them, when there is a question of worship, the spoken word becomes a chant, and the gesture of going or walking towards the divinity transforms itself into a dance step.

Among the Fathers and ecclesiastical writers and in the conciliar texts there is mention of dancing, an evaluation of it, a comment on the biblical text in which there is an allusion to the dance; more frequently there is a condemnation of profane dances and the disorders to which the dances give rise.

In liturgical texts, there are at times allusions to the dance of the angels and of the elect in paradise (cf. “Among the lilies thou dost feed, surrounded by dancing groups of virgins”) in order to express the "joy and the “jubilation” which will characterize eternity.

**Dancing and Worship **

The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church.

If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion.** But that always took place outside of liturgical services. **

Conciliar decisions have often condemned the religious dance because it conduces little to worship and because it could degenerate into disorders.

Actually, in favor of dance in the liturgy, an argument could be drawn from the passage of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, in which are given the norms for adaptation of the liturgy to the character and the traditions of the various peoples:

(Continued next post)
 
“In matters which do not affect the faith or the well-being of an entire community, the Church does not wish, even in the Liturgy, to impose a rigid uniformity; on the contrary, she respects and fosters the genius and talents of various races and people. Whatever in their way of life is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error, she looks upon with benevolence and if possible keeps it intact, and sometimes even admits it into the Liturgy provided it accords with the genuine and authentic liturgical spirit.”[1]

Theoretically, it could be deduced from that passage that certain forms of dancing and certain dance patterns could be introduced into Catholic worship.

Nevertheless, two condition could not be prescinded from.

The first: to the extent in which the body is a reflection of the soul, dancing, with all its manifestations, would have to express sentiments of faith and adoration in order to become a prayer.

The second condition: just as all the gestures and movements found in the liturgy are regulated by the competent ecclesiastical authority, so also dancing as a gesture would have to be under its discipline.

Concretely: there are cultures in which this is possible insofar as dancing is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation of them. Such is the case of the Ethiopians. In their culture, even today, there is the religious ritualized dance, clearly distinct from the marital dance and from the amorous dance. The ritual dance is performed by priests and Levites before beginning a ceremony and in the open are in front of the church. The dance accompanies the chanting of psalms during the procession. When the procession enters the church, then the chanting of the psalms is carried out with and accompanied by bodily movement.

The same thing is found in the Syriac liturgy by means of chanting of psalms.

In the Byzantine Liturgy, there is an extremely simplified dance on the occasion of a wedding when the crowned spouses make a circular revolution around the lectern together with the celebrant.

Such is the case of the Israelites: in the synagogue their prayer is accompanied by a continuous movement to recall the precept from tradition: “When you pray, do so with all your heart, and all your bones.” And for primitive peoples the same observation can be made.

However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the western culture.

Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.

For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations.

Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet[2] because there would be presentation here also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation.

Therefore, there is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture.

The traditional reserve of the seriousness of religious worship, and of the Latin worship in particular, must never be forgotten.

If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

We can recall how much was derived from the presence of the Samoans at Rome for the missionary festival of 1971. At the end of the Mass, they carried out their dance in St. Peter’s square: and all were joyful.
 
Rayne, thank you so much for that information. I don’t know what I am going to do with it, other than to know what it says for myself. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to confront the priest with it beacuse after that “get over it” remark, he seems just a little high strung and a bit unreceptive to anyone questioning anything he does, nevermind someone new to the parish 😉
As I said, I guess for the time being I’ll give it some more time and maybe it’ll grow on me? I really doubt it at this point though.
 
For me, and this is a personal feeling, I think the phrase “it should not be done too often” from the Ritual needs to be emphasized. On occasion, and for pastoral purposes, I think the celebration of the Sacrament during Holy Mass does show the bond of unity between the Seven Mysteries. However, there is one church that I know of that has every single baptism during the Mass. It’s an overuse, and it diminishes the fact that the Holy Eucharist is the pinnacle Sacrament.

Plus, I’m old school with things like this. I think an overemphasis on communitarian celebrations of more than one Sacrament (or an overemphasis on the communitarian “meal” aspect of Holy Mass) puts too much emphasis on the congregation and not enough on the Blessed Trinity. We already have a dearth of solemnity as is.
 
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