Baptism for Salvation

[guanophore]

What I understand from the Protestant view on Catholics and works is that if you have not done enough to enter heaven right when you die then you end up in purgatory.

Maybe this document on Justification. Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from works.

There is no amount of “works” we can do that are "enough’ to get to heaven.

 Catholics have masses and pray the Rosary to help friends and family to get out of purgatory.  Those who have "done enough" enter heaven right away and become saints.  Help me understand if I don't have this right...

What is “doing enough”? Jesus said there is one “work of God” that we must have, and that is faith in Him. This is the only “work” that will be “enough” to get us to heaven. There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven.

 

[spedteacherita]

What I hear most of you saying is that the works are not of ourselves but it is a matter of being available to Jesus so He can use us to His glory and we in turn can look forward to an eternity with Him.

The illustration of the mud in the eyes and example of the waterfall sort of put it all together for me.

Thank you all very much!

Feeling better now!!!
srfnolen

What I have learned from the LCMS is that our “works” are a positive outcome of the grace, salvation, the Holy Spirit working within us. We can do nothing to “help” but strive to have a relationship with Jesus from which “good works” naturally follow. For me, that means surrounding myself with Scripture and walking daily with our Triune God. My baptism wasn’t a one time event but I’m continually being cleansed of my sins thru Jesus’ blood and sacrifice.

I sometimes have problems finding the right words to say what I mean so I’m hoping I didn’t totally confuse everyone there.

 

[spedteacherita]

Maybe this document on Justification. Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from works.

There is no amount of “works” we can do that are "enough’ to get to heaven.

What is “doing enough”? Jesus said there is one “work of God” that we must have, and that is faith in Him. This is the only “work” that will be “enough” to get us to heaven. There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven.

Thanks for sharing the link. Again, I was just answering the question of why her Baptist friends thought Catholics believe in salvation by works.

I love the discussions on here because it’s one way we can overcome the misconceptions people have of other denominations.

 

[guanophore]

 Again, I don't want to come across to anyone that I am trying to be disrespectful to the Catholics here.  I'm a guest and am hear to learn about Catholic dogmas and doctrine.

That is why we are here!

There was a question earlier about Baptists friends and why they thought Catholics taught salvation by works.

This is a common misunderstanding, especially among Baptists. When I sojourned among my Baptist siblings I got this a lot.

It is more a matter of the quality of faith that saves. Baptists do not realize that these verses:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph. 2

were written by, for, and about Catholics. This is a Catholic understanding of salvation.

We are not saved “because” of works, or on the basis of works, but the Apostles taught that salvation is not separated from our works, either. The same grace that produces saving faith in us produces the works that befit repentance. Saving faith is a faith that works.

 

[srfnolen]

Maybe this document on Justification. Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, apart from works.

There is no amount of “works” we can do that are "enough’ to get to heaven.

What is “doing enough”? Jesus said there is one “work of God” that we must have, and that is faith in Him. This is the only “work” that will be “enough” to get us to heaven. There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven.

AMEN!!!

 

[Karen107]

Well… not exactly. Let’s suppose you are contrite for your sins, go to confession, receive absolution, and get hit by a bus as you leave church. Would you perfectly be in a state of grace? Absolutely!

Of course, although we might be in a state of grace perfectly, this doesn’t imply that we are perfected in ourselves. The sins that we had committed while alive may have been absolved – in which case, they were completely absolved – but, we ourselves still bear the scars of those sins. It is these imperfections that purgation removes. Purgation doesn’t deal with grace, but rather, with perfection.

(If that’s what you were trying to say, then my apologies. It seemed, though, that you were saying that purgatory and grace are related.)

I agree with you it is about perfection. So what happens to the souls who aren’t in the state of grace when they die? Like the ones who die suddenly without receiving absolution right before they die? We can’t forget them! Would it then be about the state of grace one is?

 

[Karen107]

Umm… not quite. ‘Purgatory’ is the description of a state of purification; it’s not a place, per se, and it’s not ‘sheol’ or ‘gehenna’ or ‘hades’.

Also, if we received absolution immediately prior to death, there would be no sins left to be forgiven… and so, purgatory must necessarily** have to deal with something beyond ‘sins’.**

Gorgias, I understand that. It’s not about a place as a state of being however, where does the body ‘reside’ when one is buried? Also, I was referring to the biblical texts which makes one think of heaven, hell and purgatory as places for either lack of better understanding or ‘words’ to describe the supernatural Kingdom of God. Luke 17:21, John 18:36

It also helps to look at the biblical roots of purgatory to help understand it. There again, purgatory deals with sins as you appear to be saying here or regret or anxiety for the sins one has from this life before they get to the next. Teaching us to be always ready for death is like the thief who comes in the night. I’m not saying I’m an expert on this so would like to hear some responses. Thank you!

 

[Karen107]

I found this: catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, **specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven. **

 

[Gorgias]

I agree with you it is about perfection. So what happens to the souls who aren’t in the state of grace when they die? Like the ones who die suddenly without receiving absolution right before they die? We can’t forget them! Would it then be about the state of grace one is?

Those who have no unforgiven sins as well as those who have only unforgiven venial sins are considered “in a state of grace.” So, to ask about those “who aren’t in a state of grace” means you’re asking about those who are in a state of mortal sin. The Church teaches that those who die in unrepentant mortal sin will not attain to heaven.

I think you were asking about people who have venial sin on their soul, not those in a state of mortal sin, but “venial sin only” would still count as “in a state of grace.”

It’s not about a place as a state of being however, where does the body ‘reside’ when one is buried?

The body is physical, so it resides wherever it is (e.g., a cemetery). The soul is spiritual, so it doesn’t have the quality of ‘location’.

Also, I was referring to the biblical texts which makes one think of heaven, hell and purgatory as places for either lack of better understanding or ‘words’ to describe the supernatural Kingdom of God.

Fair enough. Yet, ‘sheol’ and ‘purgatory’ aren’t equivalent, either as concepts or as words used as metaphors to explain the concept of purgation.

It also helps to look at the biblical roots of purgatory to help understand it. There again, purgatory deals with sins as you appear to be saying here or regret or anxiety for the sins one has from this life before they get to the next.

Sins – yes, if by that you mean “unforgiven venial sin”.

“Regret and anxiety”? Umm… no, not really. Purgatory isn’t about purging us of regret and/or anxiety; it’s about purging us of the side effects of sin.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” … while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

There we go – now you’ve got it!

 

[jlhargus]

I’m getting the picture. Now tell me how we can overcome the mistaken idea (held by many of my baptist friends) it is salvation by works. -srfnolen

As we are saved by grace even so God supplies the grace to do the good works we are called to do. So no man can boast. Exercising make muscles grow to perfection so also exercising faith by works perfects faith. A muscle never used is useless and so is faith alone as James tells us.

[Jms2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled**; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful** to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so** faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone**. 18-20 … 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.]**

 

[Ed_Silvia]

I agree with you it is about perfection. So what happens to the souls who aren’t in the state of grace when they die? Like the ones who die suddenly without receiving absolution right before they die? We can’t forget them! Would it then be about the state of grace one is?

In a word, yes, which makes final penitence a real blessing.
Many catholics practice the church approved First Friday Devotions in which through a private revelation to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque Our Lord Jesus made 12 promises:

Promise number 12:
**“I promise thee in the excessive mercy of My Heart that My all-powerful love will grant to all those who communicate on the First Friday in nine consecutive months, the grace of final penitence; they shall not die in My disgrace nor without receiving the Sacraments; My Divine heart shall be their safe refuge in this last moment.” **