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Religio71
Guest
and yes, we will all be physically resurrected.
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dianaiad
Guest
OK…and that is as in John 5:29?
Well, that’s pretty much as we believe; everybody is resurrected, and that’s when they are assigned to their ultimate destinations.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
There is a judgement immediately at one’s death:
Lk 16:22; 23:43; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 12:23
This we call the “particular judgment”.
At Christ’s second coming, the Last Judgment will occur, as describe in the Catechism:
1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” (Acts 24:15) will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” (Jn 5:28-29)
1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. (Jn 12:48) The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life.
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death. (Songs 8:6)
1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” (2 Cor 6:2) It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed.” (Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10)
Lk 16:22; 23:43; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 12:23
This we call the “particular judgment”.
At Christ’s second coming, the Last Judgment will occur, as describe in the Catechism:
1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” (Acts 24:15) will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” (Jn 5:28-29)
1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. (Jn 12:48) The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life.
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death. (Songs 8:6)
1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” (2 Cor 6:2) It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed.” (Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10)
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Peter_John
Guest
As a former Mormon I have come up with an interesting response for this one. Any of our better ancient language posters can correct me if I am wrong.
As I understand it the reference in Corinthians uses a word for “for” that can be as ambiguous in the original language as in English.
Unless someone knows otherwise, it sounds to me like it could represent an early use of a practice similar to taking a saint’s name at baptism – I tell people that Catholics are baptized with the names of dead people all the time, even if they are in heaven now, to honor them and recognize their help.
If they do not like that answer, and even if they do, I just go on to say even if some were baptizing by proxy for the dead, it just shows how inclusive the Church tried to be, allowing a practice until decided otherwise, and show them how thay might have gotten the idea from Maaccabees. Showing them a scripture they never knew existed that suports work for the dead – the real issue – which they already believe in usually makes it easy for them to acknowledge that the verse does not in fact constitute endorsement of the practive, but work for the ded is important. They are often surprised to learn that Catholics do work for the dead, but do not beleive we have to build temples for it. Offering a mass, or praying a rosary, or simply praying for them is enough.
It takes the discussion from the false dichotomy, and the attendant polarization , which limits the receptiveness of someone on the defensive.
As I understand it the reference in Corinthians uses a word for “for” that can be as ambiguous in the original language as in English.
Unless someone knows otherwise, it sounds to me like it could represent an early use of a practice similar to taking a saint’s name at baptism – I tell people that Catholics are baptized with the names of dead people all the time, even if they are in heaven now, to honor them and recognize their help.
If they do not like that answer, and even if they do, I just go on to say even if some were baptizing by proxy for the dead, it just shows how inclusive the Church tried to be, allowing a practice until decided otherwise, and show them how thay might have gotten the idea from Maaccabees. Showing them a scripture they never knew existed that suports work for the dead – the real issue – which they already believe in usually makes it easy for them to acknowledge that the verse does not in fact constitute endorsement of the practive, but work for the ded is important. They are often surprised to learn that Catholics do work for the dead, but do not beleive we have to build temples for it. Offering a mass, or praying a rosary, or simply praying for them is enough.
It takes the discussion from the false dichotomy, and the attendant polarization , which limits the receptiveness of someone on the defensive.
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pak2184
Guest
Catholics at one time did practice Baptism for the dead - In Saint Paul’s Basilica (Rome) on the wall it says “BAPTISMVM IN MORTEM” - Baptism for the dead.
However, it looks like you all have a misunderstanding of the term. This is not baptizing dead people. This ordinances is for a living person to stand as a proxy for someone who has died, and then the person, who has died, and who’s spirit has risen, will decide if they want to accept the ordinance or not.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:39:
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
The people were disputing about resurrection - some, like the Sadducees did not believe that all men will be resurrected, so Paul essentially said - Why are you doing baptisms for the dead if they won’t be resurrected?
Paul was teaching about resurrection, but he inadvertently taught a truth that is almost lost to the religious world - They were practicing the ordinance of Baptisms for the Dead.
However, it looks like you all have a misunderstanding of the term. This is not baptizing dead people. This ordinances is for a living person to stand as a proxy for someone who has died, and then the person, who has died, and who’s spirit has risen, will decide if they want to accept the ordinance or not.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:39:
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
The people were disputing about resurrection - some, like the Sadducees did not believe that all men will be resurrected, so Paul essentially said - Why are you doing baptisms for the dead if they won’t be resurrected?
Paul was teaching about resurrection, but he inadvertently taught a truth that is almost lost to the religious world - They were practicing the ordinance of Baptisms for the Dead.
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brb3
Guest
Very informative …on how Mormonism has taken the ‘poetic license’ to teach whatever is REVEALED to the ELDERS. Internal contradictions…no problemo ! Lets just Baptize the complete Obit Pages …and make EVERYONE Mormon …from Adam to Atheist-2013.
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Porknpie
Guest
Pak,
What bible are you using?
1 Corinthians 15 below…
The Resurrection Body.
36 You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;
38 but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.
41 The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.
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Porknpie
Guest
Pak,
Have you researched the Catholic understanding of the inscription or are you passing on what you’ve been taught?
Please explain when in Mormon history baptizing dead people by proxy came to be? I assume this can be found in the BOM?
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brb3
Guest
yes, …it would appear some Christians were being Baptized for others ( probably deceased family) …Paul doesn’t teach or endorse it, so …we don’t know if he approved or not.
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