Baptism for the Dead, Sealings, etc.

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Religio71

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As I read about the Mormons, the more I am intrigued by these practices that have been supposedly “restored”.

Where is there proof that the primitive Church practiced baptism for the dead? Many Mormons portray this practice as joyous, as it allows those who were not able to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to be saved. However, isn’t it enough to trust in the mercy and power of God to save those who may not have understood the fullness of Truth? Besides 1 Cor. 15:29, where is there proof that this is a restored practice of original Christianity? Also, what about Hebrews 9:27-“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”? Many Mormons talk about spirit missionaries going to those in spirit prison to preach and hope that they convert and be saved. Does this mean we have a second chance? Do those that deny Christ have another chance at accepting him? Is there proof of this restored belief?

Sealings are interesting because they admittedly provide much comfort to those that enjoy family and wish to be with them forever. However, it seems that the logic in which sealing is based is that in regular marriage ceremonies, our families will not be together in Heaven. What is this based on? Yes we will all be a family in God in Heaven (hopefully), and if our family is faithful to the message of Christ and saved by grace, would we not see them in Heaven? Why would we need sealings then?
 
Any non-LDS sources?

More specifically, are there any sources that don’t have a confirmation bias?
 
Religio71 said:
As I read about the Mormons, the more I am intrigued by these practices that have been supposedly “restored”.

Where is there proof that the primitive Church practiced baptism for the dead? Many Mormons portray this practice as joyous, as it allows those who were not able to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to be saved. However, isn’t it enough to trust in the mercy and power of God to save those who may not have understood the fullness of Truth? Besides 1 Cor. 15:29, where is there proof that this is a restored practice of original Christianity? Also, what about Hebrews 9:27-“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”? Many Mormons talk about spirit missionaries going to those in spirit prison to preach and hope that they convert and be saved. Does this mean we have a second chance? Do those that deny Christ have another chance at accepting him? Is there proof of this restored belief?

Sealings are interesting because they admittedly provide much comfort to those that enjoy family and wish to be with them forever. However, it seems that the logic in which sealing is based is that in regular marriage ceremonies, our families will not be together in Heaven. What is this based on? Yes we will all be a family in God in Heaven (hopefully), and if our family is faithful to the message of Christ and saved by grace, would we not see them in Heaven? Why would we need sealings then?
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There is no proof of practices such as baptism for the dead and the various types of sealings in the Early Church because they were invented by Joseph Smith, they weren’t done back in the 1st Century.
 
I had a Mormon try to explain these 2 strange concepts to me. They made no since at all in the light of proper Christian teaching. I just waved it all off as ignorance of Truth. I mean let’s face it … any religon that teaches the posibility of a human becoming a god is a little off kilter anyway 😉
 
I agree, there is no proof that baptism for the dead was practiced by the primitive Church.
 
Religio71 said:
As I read about the Mormons, the more I am intrigued by these practices that have been supposedly “restored”.

Where is there proof that the primitive Church practiced baptism for the dead? Many Mormons portray this practice as joyous, as it allows those who were not able to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to be saved. However, isn’t it enough to trust in the mercy and power of God to save those who may not have understood the fullness of Truth? Besides 1 Cor. 15:29, where is there proof that this is a restored practice of original Christianity? Also, what about Hebrews 9:27-“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”? Many Mormons talk about spirit missionaries going to those in spirit prison to preach and hope that they convert and be saved. Does this mean we have a second chance? Do those that deny Christ have another chance at accepting him? Is there proof of this restored belief?

Sealings are interesting because they admittedly provide much comfort to those that enjoy family and wish to be with them forever. However, it seems that the logic in which sealing is based is that in regular marriage ceremonies, our families will not be together in Heaven. What is this based on? Yes we will all be a family in God in Heaven (hopefully), and if our family is faithful to the message of Christ and saved by grace, would we not see them in Heaven? Why would we need sealings then?
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(I Cor. 15:29) but only mentions it in passing to use its practice among some of the new Christians as an example for a very important point he wishes to get across to his new converts at Corinth. Paul never preached it as a doctrine of the Church.

Here we have an example of the use of the Christian Bible by the LDS of taking a phrase out of context and forcing a meaning into it that the entire context will not permit. In this present instance they have done so as proof from the New Testament for their practice of baptizing for the dead.

. A careful reading of the entire 15th chapter of I Corinthians will show what Paul really had in mind when he penned this 29th verse.

Paul was writing about the resurrection, life after death. He wished to impress upon the minds of his converts that true Christians must hold on in spite of many trials and sufferings in this life for their new faith. A better life awaited them in the next world.

. To emphasize this point Paul merely mentions that “they” (apparently some of the Christian converts) were having themselves baptized for their deceased friends and relatives, hoping that through such a vicarious baptism these dead people might be assured of some share in Christ’s redemption. In line with his argument Paul’s rhetorical question is clear: “Why bother if there is no resurrection?” Paul never approves of such a baptism in verse 29.
 
Seems to me the LDS church looks for errors in practice and belief. Instead of seeing them for what they are, they have this compulsion to “restore” them.
 
Religio71 said:
As I read about the Mormons, the more I am intrigued by these practices that have been supposedly “restored”.

Where is there proof that the primitive Church practiced baptism for the dead? Many Mormons portray this practice as joyous, as it allows those who were not able to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to be saved. However, isn’t it enough to trust in the mercy and power of God to save those who may not have understood the fullness of Truth? Besides 1 Cor. 15:29, where is there proof that this is a restored practice of original Christianity? Also, what about Hebrews 9:27-“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”? Many Mormons talk about spirit missionaries going to those in spirit prison to preach and hope that they convert and be saved. Does this mean we have a second chance? Do those that deny Christ have another chance at accepting him? Is there proof of this restored belief?
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Well, according to your description I see there are two more scriptures in its favor over the list of scriptures that disprove it was an ancient practice.

Everyone has received a 2nd chance because through Christ’s atonement we are able to be resurrected. In reference to what you are saying, everyone should deserve an equal chance to accept or reject the church of Christ. The Plan of Salvation (God’s plan for us) teaches us everyone will get a fair shot at acceptance. Those missionaries in spirit prison will go teach to those who have not heard the message of Jesus Christ.
 
mormonboy said:
Well, according to your description I see there are two more scriptures in its favor over the list of scriptures that disprove it was an ancient practice.

Everyone has received a 2nd chance because through Christ’s atonement we are able to be resurrected. In reference to what you are saying, everyone should deserve an equal chance to accept or reject the church of Christ. The Plan of Salvation (God’s plan for us) teaches us everyone will get a fair shot at acceptance. Those missionaries in spirit prison will go teach to those who have not heard the message of Jesus Christ.
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Baptism of Desire fulfills this sense of justice.

2 Nephi 9:15-“And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.”

2 Nephi 9:16-“And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”

So according to the Book of Mormon, those who are filthy will continue to be filthy and will go into everlasting fire. If those that go into spirit prison are filthy, how can baptism of the dead and spirit missionaries change this, if they will continue to be filthy? Does the Book of Mormon discuss baptism of the dead or second chances for those in spirit prison?
 
Religio71 said:
Baptism of Desire fulfills this sense of justice.

2 Nephi 9:15-“And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.”

2 Nephi 9:16-“And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”

So according to the Book of Mormon, those who are filthy will continue to be filthy and will go into everlasting fire. If those that go into spirit prison are filthy, how can baptism of the dead and spirit missionaries change this, if they will continue to be filthy? Does the Book of Mormon discuss baptism of the dead or second chances for those in spirit prison?
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So I just typed up this long explanation and then I think it got deleted…😦

It is just as if they were to be baptized on earth. We need to be baptized at an accountable age (8 yrs in our church) in order to be able to make right or wrong decisions. Once baptized, we are no longer unclean. Those who are filthy will remain filthy unless the accept the message of the missionaries. If they do accept, they cannot be baptized because they are spirits. That is why they need a proxy…

Yes… The BOM does extensively in Alma 40-42:thumbsup:
 
mormonboy said:
So I just typed up this long explanation and then I think it got deleted…😦

It is just as if they were to be baptized on earth. We need to be baptized at an accountable age (8 yrs in our church) in order to be able to make right or wrong decisions. Once baptized, we are no longer unclean. Those who are filthy will remain filthy unless the accept the message of the missionaries. If they do accept, they cannot be baptized because they are spirits. That is why they need a proxy…

Yes… The BOM does extensively in Alma 40-42:thumbsup:
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I scanned Alma 40-42 and didn’t see baptism for the dead. Could you point me in the right direction? What I get is that between death and the resurrection, we go before God, the righteous go to paradise, and the wicked go to outer darkness, and we remain in these states until the resurrection.
 
MelanieAnne said:
There is no proof of practices such as baptism for the dead and the various types of sealings in the Early Church because they were invented by Joseph Smith, they weren’t done back in the 1st Century.
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Melanie, is there any proof it wasn’t?
 
Religio71 said:
I scanned Alma 40-42 and didn’t see baptism for the dead. Could you point me in the right direction? What I get is that between death and the resurrection, we go before God, the righteous go to paradise, and the wicked go to outer darkness, and we remain in these states until the resurrection.
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That was in response asking about the 2nd chances for those in spirit prison you asked about…I don’t know any references direct references off the top of my head.
 
mormonboy said:
That was in response asking about the 2nd chances for those in spirit prison you asked about…I don’t know any references direct references off the top of my head.
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Ok, could you show where there is a second chance in spirit prison? I reread it again and couldn’t really find anything related to that.
 
Religio71 said:
As I read about the Mormons, the more I am intrigued by these practices that have been supposedly “restored”.

Where is there proof that the primitive Church practiced baptism for the dead?
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 15:29.
Many Mormons portray this practice as joyous, as it allows those who were not able to hear the Truth of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity to be saved. However, isn’t it enough to trust in the mercy and power of God to save those who may not have understood the fullness of Truth?
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No, because God has declared baptism is a necessary requirement for salvation (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:28).
Besides 1 Cor. 15:29, where is there proof that this is a restored practice of original Christianity?
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One is enough. Why should there be need for more than one? Besides, our doctrine is not derived from the Bible. It is derived from modern revelation. If you cannot accept the principle of modern revelation, then any additional arguments about baptism for the dead, or anything else for that matter, is superglues. Suppose that I proved to you to your satisfaction that baptism for the dead was practiced in early Christianity, how would that prove to you that Mormonism is true? It wouldn’t, unless you were willing to accept the principle of modern revelation.
Also, what about Hebrews 9:27-“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”? Many Mormons talk about spirit missionaries going to those in spirit prison to preach and hope that they convert and be saved. Does this mean we have a second chance? Do those that deny Christ have another chance at accepting him? Is there proof of this restored belief?
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Yes and no. First of all, there is biblical proof that Jesus after his crucifixion went to the spirit world and preached the gospel to the dead (1 Peter 3:18–20). Why would He want to do that, if it wasn’t meant to do them any good? Secondly, baptism for the dead will not necessarily save people in the celestial kingdom. Those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ in this world after it had been preached to them by the authorized servants of the Lord, accompanied by the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and refused all opportunity to accept it in this life, will not exactly get a second chance in the next life. First they will have to pay for their sins in the next life; and afterwards if they accept the gospel in the spirit world, they will obtain salvation in one of the other kingdoms of heaven, but not a celestial one.
Sealings are interesting because they admittedly provide much comfort to those that enjoy family and wish to be with them forever. However, it seems that the logic in which sealing is based is that in regular marriage ceremonies, our families will not be together in Heaven. What is this based on?
Click to expand...
Because the kingdom of God is a kingdom of order, not of confusion. When you get married by the vicar, you are married until “death do you part”. The vicar recognizes that his marriage is not binding beyond the grave. And so it is. To remain eternally married, a different kind of marriage ceremony is required, which the vicar does not have the priesthood authority to perform.
Yes we will all be a family in God in Heaven (hopefully), and if our family is faithful to the message of Christ and saved by grace, would we not see them in Heaven?
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Seeing them is one thing; remaining married to them is another!
Why would we need sealings then?
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Sealing is not an accurate word here. The correct word is eternal marriage or temple marriage. When you get married in the temple, the officiator has the priesthood authority to marry you for time and eternity, not just “until death do you part,” as the vicar does. That is something that no other priest or minister of any other church can do. They just don’t have the priesthood authority to do it.

zerinus
 
mormonboy said:
Melanie, is there any proof it wasn’t?
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The burden of proof is on you as a Mormon to prove it was practiced in the Early Church. There is no obligation to prove a negative. This is, however, a common Mormon sort of misdirection.

So we’ll get one thing straight right now ~ the fact that you say it happened, doesn’t make it so. There is no evidence of these practices in the Early Church. Why? Because it wasn’t done. No one has to prove that this WASN’T practiced. If you are so certain that these practices were common in the Early Church it is up to you to provide the evidence that they were. Otherwise, the intellectually honest thing to do is concede that there is no evidence for the claim.
 
mormonboy said:
Melanie, is there any proof it wasn’t?
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There is no proof that the early Christians were not Yankees fans. So by your reasoning can we assume that they were Yankees fans?

I have no desire of getting involved with this topic. I am a little tired of all the Mormon topics as it is. I just wanted to point out the faulty logic here.

God bless you
 
Roman_Catholic said:
There is no proof that the early Christians were not Yankees fans. So by your reasoning can we assume that they were Yankees fans?..
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Now wait a cotton pickin minute, I thought the Christians of the 1st century were Red Sox fans. I that not in 2nd John? 😉
 
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