Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[Pax]

And what does circumcision of the flesh mean?

How is circumcision of the flesh different from the circumcision of the foreskin?

You are wasting time with this kind of questioning. Circumcision of the flesh is circumcision of the foreskin. This is quite obvious. Moreover, this circumcision along with the “OT levitical laws” are what have been done away with.

Jesus himself instituted Christian baptism in the New Covenant. It is clearly a replacement for circumcision which could not do anything in the believer vs. what Trinitarian baptism accomplishes within the New Covenant. We know this from the context on the verses under discussion along with the empirical data concerning water baptism. If your view was anywhere remotely connected with the facts, there would have been no water baptism performed at all in the early church.

 

[Pax]

One other point. You have introduced gnosticism into this discussion as if it actually had an important place. The heresy which Paul is discussing is that concerning the Judaizers and circumcision. Your argument about the gnostic and Hellenistic influences is pure obfuscation. This entire passage in Colossians is about the ceremonial law of the OT and circumcision.

Christian/Tinitarian baptism is not of the Old Law…it is a New Covenant Oath. I won’t repeat this again…it is crystal clear.

 

[Pax]

…
…

Mark 10:38
Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I drink or be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

Lk 12:50
There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!

Here lies the crux of descent. I believe that coming alive in the Spirit can only be obtained by crucifying\circumcising\blood baptism of self.

Please explain to me how these expressions undo Trinitarian baptism which Jesus instituted. The biblical quotes that you refer to have to do with another usage of the term baptism. That usage refers to an idiomatic expression of “baptism as afflictions.” In this regard Jesus tells us that “The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.” And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.”[Luke 9:22-24]

As Christians we will suffer many things and we must endure them. Mark 10:38 is a reference to the sufferings that the apostles would suffer that parallel the sufferings of Christ. This is not a reference to Trinitarian water baptism and does not supercede or do away with Trinitarian water baptism. Likewise, Jesus last command to the apostles which comes quite some time after the incident in Mark 10:38 says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” And please notice that Jesus says that they are to teach them to observe all that I have commanded.

None of this agrees with your rather creative assertionss.

 

[Pax]

It is most constructive to itemize a list, thank you for providing one.

To clarify. I am referring specifically to water baptism. In addition, by ordinance, I mean a tradition that has evolved into a ritual.

You are correct, there is no passage in scripture that refers to water baptism as a tradition that has evolved into a ritual.

Please show me from scripture just how Trinitarian water baptism is a tradition that has evolved into a ritual.

I would suggest that you refocus on all of the scriptures that refer to baptism and easily discover that it does not fit into your stated criteria.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Five weeks of age is kind of young to be confessing Christ. Though there is only one baptism I believe that it must be for those who confess Christ.

This is not what the Bible says and it is not what the Church has historically taught. Take a look.

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

Do Infants Need Baptism?

Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.

Jesus Extols Child-like Faith

Matthew 18:2-5
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants

Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Luke 18:15-17
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Church Begins to Preach Baptism

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[tabcom]

You are wasting time with this kind of questioning. Circumcision of the flesh is circumcision of the foreskin. This is quite obvious.

Thank you for the clarification. It is important to me. to know exactly what you mean. Hence, when you say “The passage (Col 2:11) clearly speaks of circumcision of the flesh”, I have a difficult time making sense of it.

Why? How can one literally perform a circumcision of the foreskin “made without hands” . And what is “in the circumcision of Christ”? Is that too literal?

Col 2:11
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not made by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.

Can you see how I find your logic confusing?

 

[tabcom]

(Christian baptism) clearly a replacement for circumcision . . . We know this from . . . the empirical data concerning water baptism.

I’ve been studying water baptism for some time. I have yet found empirical data that shows that christian water baptism was preformed anytime during Paul’s missionary journeys, let along during the time of Jesus. Could you please provide secular documentation, to support your claim?

 

[tabcom]

As this discussion starts to go into different directions, I would like to repeat my statement in Post #19. That is, the word baptizo, in the original Greek text of scripture, does not mean to immerse.

There are two words in the Greek language that exclusively mean to immerse (kataduo) and sprinkle (rhantizo).

Neither of which can be found associated with baptism in the New Testement.

 

[Pax]

As this discussion starts to go into different directions, I would like to repeat my statement in Post #19. That is, the word baptizo, in the original Greek text of scripture, does not mean to immerse.

There are two words in the Greek language that exclusively mean to immerse (kataduo) and sprinkle (rhantizo).

Neither of which can be found associated with baptism in the New Testement.

You have set up an absolute which is incorrect. Baptizo can be used to mean immersion.

 

[Pax]

Thank you for the clarification. It is important to me. to know exactly what you mean. Hence, when you say “The passage (Col 2:11) clearly speaks of circumcision of the flesh”, I have a difficult time making sense of it.

Why? How can one literally perform a circumcision of the foreskin “made without hands” . And what is “in the circumcision of Christ”? Is that too literal?

Col 2:11
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not made by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.

Can you see how I find your logic confusing?

There is no confusion other than that which you are creating because of your predetermined views on baptism. You are attempting to say that the circumcision that is without hands accomplishes the same physical circumcision of the foreskin. The text doesn’t say that and neither do we. Baptism provides a circumcision of the heart, it remits original and personal sin and it gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A comparison of the OT prefiguring of baptism to the NT should illustrate the point.

OT-- Baptism prefigured
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Go line for line in comparing this. Ezekiel says that God will sprinkle us with clean water. This is the outward sign of baptism. Ezekiel says that God will give us a new heart. The Book of Acts says, “they were cut to the heart.” Ezekiel says I will clean you of all your uncleanesses[sins]. The Book of Acts says, “so that your sins may be forgiven.” Ezekiel says, “I will put a new Spirit within you.” The Book of Acts says, “you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The following represent inward changes mentioned in scripture that use the word “circumcision” as a way of describing the action. Read these verses:

Circumcision of The Heart

Deuteronomy 10:16-18
Deuteronomy 30:6
Jeremiah 4:4
Rom2:29

Uncircumcised Heart
Lev 26:41
Jer 9:25
Ez 44:7-9

Uncircumcised Ears
Jeremiah 6:10

Uncircumcised Lips
Exodus 6:12,30

Now read:

Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. [baptism is called the sacrament of faith in the Catholic Church]

Gal 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. [baptism is what makes us a new creation]

These last verses from Galatians are exactly what we are talking about in baptism, and they correspond perfectly with the passage in Colossians. Likewise, when we do a simple connection of the dots of all these passages along with all of the others given to you concerning baptism, the picture is perfectly clear. Water baptism, as Peter puts it, “now saves you.”

 

[tabcom]

You have set up an absolute which is incorrect. Baptizo can be used to mean immersion.

I’ve cited more then one source that states otherwise. Could you provide a source, other than scripture, that shows the use of baptizo to mean to immerse?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve been studying water baptism for some time. I have yet found empirical data that shows that christian water baptism was preformed anytime during Paul’s missionary journeys, let along during the time of Jesus. Could you please provide secular documentation, to support your claim?

1 Corinthians 1:13-16
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28361b”)] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)

I’m not sure I understand what you are arguing about, but Paul clearly baptized a couple of people according to his own words.

 

[Pax]

I’ve cited more then one source that states otherwise. Could you provide a source, other than scripture, that shows the use of baptizo to mean to immerse?

Well, you could go to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, Easton’s Bible Dictionary, and even Josephus who uses it to describe the baptism of John.

Easton’s give a nice explanation of how there is a “latitude” in languages when it comes to how words are used. This comes through clearly to us in our everyday usage of English as well. You simply made a mistake in setting up some kind of absolute for the usage of words. Moreover, scripture scholars from around the world and of different denominations disagree with you. These scripture scholars are linguists and or Greek scholars as well. There translations skills should not be so easily dismissed.

 

[tabcom]

Well, you could go to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, Easton’s Bible Dictionary, and even Josephus

I didn’t ask for different translators of scripture.

What I asked was, with respects to your statement “We know this from . . . the empirical data concerning water baptism.”, could you provide a source, other than scripture, that shows the use of baptizo to mean to immerse?

For instance, I’ve shown that baptizo has been used to mean to stain or to dye, i. e., empirical data. (see post #19).

Greek literature offers many examples of baptizo, baptizomai, etc., concerning the state of something changed by an outer source.

“And stretching out his right hand, so as to escape notice by none, he mersed (baptizo) the entire sword into his throat” Josephus, Jewish War ii, 18

“I know some, who, when they become slightly intoxicated, before they become thoroughly drunk (baptizomai)” Philo, ii, 478 On Contemp. Life

“And mersed (baptizo) by drunkenness into insensibility and sleep” Jewish Antiquities., x, 9

These are only three of hundreds of examples in Greek of the use of baptizo to convey a ‘state of change’ of an object. This means that to the Greek ear hearing baptizo (and it’s various derivatives), it had a greater and broader meaning than just water immersion.

 

[tabcom]

I’m not sure I understand what you are arguing about, but Paul clearly baptized a couple of people according to his own words.

What I’m looking for is empirical data from a secular source during the time of Jesus and Paul that documents the public display of water baptism.

 

[Pax]

I’ve been studying water baptism for some time. I have yet found empirical data that shows that christian water baptism was preformed anytime during Paul’s missionary journeys, let along during the time of Jesus. Could you please provide secular documentation, to support your claim?

Secular documentation can include comments on the Didache which is a first century writing that includes information on water baptisms practiced by Christians.

Pictorial data in the catacombs which has received study and commentary by non-Christian sources is proof of early Christian water baptism.

One of the surviving ancient gnostic-like mystery religions, Mandaeanism performs baptisms. Likewise, it claims John the Baptist to have been one of its greatest teachers. It would seem that even ancient non-Christians knew about water baptism.

Since I am not an archaeologist or historian I do not have a list of such people and their credentials as secularists. Nevertheless, I am very confident that there are many secular[read atheist/agnostic] scholars out there that would acknowledge early Christian water baptism even though the practice means nothing to them spiritually.

 

[Pax]

…
…

These are only three of hundreds of examples in Greek of the use of baptizo to convey a ‘state of change’ of an object. This means that to the Greek ear hearing baptizo (and it’s various derivatives), it had a greater and broader meaning than just water immersion.

Thank you…I would agree with this statement. We have now overcome a needless impasse.

 

[Pax]

What I’m looking for is empirical data from a secular source during the time of Jesus and Paul that documents the public display of water baptism.

While I check around for this, why don’t you check around for empirical data from secular and religious sources during the time of Jesus and Paul that documents that water baptism did not exist.

 

[tabcom]

Thank you…I would agree with this statement (baptism had a greater and broader meaning than just water immersion). We have now overcome a needless impasse.

And I want to thank you, Pax, for pushing me to study more.

Now that we are in agreement that there are multiple types of baptism, my personal study has led me to this . . . .

John’s Baptism - water.
Jesus’ Baptism - Holy Spirit and Fire.
What kind of baptism is Jesus talking about in Mark and Luke?

Mark 10:38
Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I drink or be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

Lk 12:50
There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!

Is Jesus talking about being dipped in water a second time? (Rhetorical question – no need to reply)

I believe you attempted to answer these questions by stating Christian/Tinitarian baptism. However, that baptism is theological in nature and really doesn’t resolve my questioning.