Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[guanophore]

’ 3. "His eternal messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power”,

“that he might be revealed to Israel”(36)

36 Acts 10:38; Jn 1:31.

as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as “the Holy One of God”.(37)

37 Mk 1:24; Jn 6:69; Acts 3:14.

. . . . . mercygate, thanks for the clarification. I’m still unclear about a couple things. For instance, the open quotation mark ("His eternal . . .) doesn’t have a corresponding close quotation mark. **Also, what Scripture does “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” refer to? **

'3. "His eternal messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power”, “that he might be revealed to Israel”(36)as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as “the Holy One of God”.(37)

Acts 10:36-38
Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 the word which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

 

[guanophore]

Ok all that’s fine and dandy but what does it have to do with the “water of baptism” not being the “water of baptism”?

Chuck

Tabcom is translating the sentence to mean “forbid water” to the baptized, since they have already received the Spirit.

 

[tabcom]

1. His eternal messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when

“God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power”,

Acts 10:36-38

“that he might be revealed to Israel”(36)

36 Acts 10:38; Jn 1:31.

as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as “the Holy One of God”.(37)

37 Mk 1:24; Jn 6:69; Acts 3:14.

OK … now that I understand the liberal usage of quotation marks. What still appears to me as a run-on sentence is the placement of a comma at 'John, when '. I interpret that to mean, two separate ideas combined as one.

 

[Salmeno]

I came to understand that baptism was to remove the cloak received during the birth through the vaginal channel. The cloak that told the story of how birth and pain caused the need for removal of guilt and sin from transgressions, away from freedoms and life. With baptism, removing the cloak of birth and the washing away of the film of earth; hence ‘reborn’, does freedom return. Thereby, making the need for sacraments and devotionals less of a demand for man while on earth. Sacraments and devotionals must be preformed after the climb up the stairs to the alter in the afterlife to gain entrance into heaven, but baptism, water or purging, is suppose to be the cure for the continual cycle of sin imposed on man while on earth in human form as was Jesus. Tell me is is new to you?

 

[Holly3278]

Baptism is necessary but baptism by immersion is not necessary. What about the early Christians who had no heat and wanted to baptize during the middle of the Winter? They probably would have used pouring or sprinkling instead of immersion. The logic for baptism by immersion just doesn’t add up.

 

[Salamander]

Baptism is necessary but baptism by immersion is not necessary. What about the early Christians who had no heat and wanted to baptize during the middle of the Winter? They probably would have used pouring or sprinkling instead of immersion. The logic for baptism by immersion just doesn’t add up.

John the Baptist was named John the Immerser not Baptist. The word Baptist is a transliteration of Immerse, is it not?

bible.ca/eo/ba/ba_11.htm

“C. NOT ONE STANDARD GREEK LEXICON DEFINES “BAPTIZO” AS “SPRINKLE” OR
“POUR”…
1. In fact, there are completely different words in Greek for
“pouring” (CHENO) and “sprinkling” (RAINO)
2. It is important to keep in mind concerning “baptize” and
“baptism”:
a. That they are simply “transliterations”
b. That they were transliterated instead of translated in our
Bibles to avoid offending those who practice pouring or
sprinkling
c. But when translated into English, they can only mean “to
immerse” and “immersion”!”

I doubt that repentant believers cared whether is was Zero degrees outside or 130 degrees. They were obeying God’s command: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV)
(21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[tkthompson244]

I am new to this group. I am a Prostenant but my brother in law just converted and I am trying to understand the Catholic religion a little better. This thread caught my eye because I have always been taught that one is Baptized as a sign of obdience to God and you have to first accept Christ as your Savior. I guess I dont understand how at a month old you can do this. Would that not ibe taking away the free will God gave us? I would love to hear your thoughts and beliefs on this. There is no judgement from my part I simply want to learn more about this religion. Also… do Catholics see non-Catholics as non Christians? Long story about my BIL’s MIL who seems to think that.

 

[guanophore]

I came to understand that baptism was to remove the cloak received during the birth through the vaginal channel. The cloak that told the story of how birth and pain caused the need for removal of guilt and sin from transgressions, away from freedoms and life.

Salmeno, I want you to know that what you have"come to understand’ is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Scripture shows that original sin occurs at the moment of conception.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
and done that which is evil in thy sight,
so that thou art justified in thy sentence
and blameless in thy judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:4-5

This is the penalty of sin that was incurred by Adam and Eve.

With baptism, removing the cloak of birth and the washing away of the film of earth; hence ‘reborn’, does freedom return.

It is true that Baptism does wash away the original sin, but it is not a “cloak of birth”. We know this because those born by other means besides the birth canal (ceasarean) still emerge with orginal sin.

Thereby, making the need for sacraments and devotionals less of a demand for man while on earth.

Jesus instituted the Sacraments as a means to access His Grace. They are not a “demand” but a gift that are to be received with faith.

Sacraments and devotionals must be preformed after the climb up the stairs to the alter in the afterlife to gain entrance into heaven,

I am not sure why you are on the Catholic forum, but it does not sound like you have received any Catholic instruction. Sacraments are for the earthly life only, and lead us to the altar where Christ was sacrificed for our sins. Once we reach the afterlife, we have no need or benefit of personal participation in sacraments.

but baptism, water or purging, is suppose to be the cure for the continual cycle of sin imposed on man while on earth in human form as was Jesus. Tell me is is new to you?

Yes this line of thinking is all new to me. Baptism washes away sin, and that is familiar, but original sin was not imposed on man while Jesus was on earth. Original sin was the consequence of disobedience. Jesus’ while on earth in human form paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood, and it is His sacrifice that “cured” the cycle of sin.

 

[guanophore]

I am new to this group. I am a Prostenant but my brother in law just converted and I am trying to understand the Catholic religion a little better. This thread caught my eye because I have always been taught that one is Baptized as a sign of obdience to God and you have to first accept Christ as your Savior. I guess I dont understand how at a month old you can do this. Would that not ibe taking away the free will God gave us? I would love to hear your thoughts and beliefs on this. There is no judgement from my part I simply want to learn more about this religion. Also… do Catholics see non-Catholics as non Christians? Long story about my BIL’s MIL who seems to think that.

Welcome to CAF!

You have been taught what is known as “believers baptism”. This means that a person must make a personal confession of faith and be “saved” prior to baptism. This is not the Teaching of Jesus that has come to us from the Apostles. Since the first days of the Church, whole households were baptized, including children and infants. I recomment you go to the “library” tab above and look on the left side for sacraments or baptism for more information about what the Apostles taught. What you ahve received was conceived during the Protestant Reformation in the 1500’s, and was not taught by the apostles.

Catholics understand that Baptized Christians are members of the One Body of Christ.

 

[Pax]

I am new to this group. I am a Prostenant but my brother in law just converted and I am trying to understand the Catholic religion a little better. This thread caught my eye because I have always been taught that one is Baptized as a sign of obdience to God and you have to first accept Christ as your Savior. I guess I dont understand how at a month old you can do this. Would that not ibe taking away the free will God gave us? I would love to hear your thoughts and beliefs on this. There is no judgement from my part I simply want to learn more about this religion. Also… do Catholics see non-Catholics as non Christians? Long story about my BIL’s MIL who seems to think that.

First of all, Catholics view non-Catholic Christians as our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, we recognize you as a Christian.

An adult must have faith and must be baptized to join the Christian family as an adopted son or daughter of God. This follows the exact Old Law Jewish practice of circumcision of converts when they came to faith in Yaweh. Children, on the other hand were circumcised on the eigth day after birth. Children were unable to have faith in Yaweh as infants, but the they were circumcised and became full members of the OT family of God and part of the chosen people.

The NT speaks of baptism as the replacement for circumcision.

We see this in Col 2:11-12 which says:

“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”

Since circumcision was performed on infants so also baptism is given to infants. The gift of baptism washes away original sin in the infant, the infant receives the Holy Spirit, and the infant is predisposed to faith. The parents raise the child in the faith just as the Jews raised their children in the faith under the old law.

There are other passages of scripture that point to infant baptism. In Acts 2:38-39 we read the following:

And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children”

If you would like more simply PM me and I’ll give you the rest of the scriptures and a little historical data to go along with the practice of infant baptism.

 

[mgrfin]

Catholics understand that Baptized Christians are members of the One Body of Christ.

Slight distinction here: baptised Christians are Christians, but unless they are members of the Roman Catholic Church, they are not members of the Mystical Body of Christ. cf: Mystici Corporis of Pius XII, Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII, and Dominus Jesus, John Paul II, and its update from the CDF, compliments of Benedict XVI.

peace

 

[tkthompson244]

Guess your going to have to explain to me the the Mystical Body of Christ. What do you mean by that?
#2 question…I notice the baptized infront of Christians. I believe that once you have accepted Christ as your Savior you are a Christian…so… in the CR are you not a Christian unless you are baptized?

Slight distinction here: baptised Christians are Christians, but unless they are members of the Roman Catholic Church, they are not members of the Mystical Body of Christ. cf: Mystici Corporis of Pius XII, Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII, and Dominus Jesus, John Paul II, and its update from the CDF, compliments of Benedict XVI.

peace

 

[Pax]

Matthew 28:18-20 says the following:

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Baptism is commanded by Jesus.

Mark 16:16

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Just as circumcision brought a person into the OT family of God, baptism brings you into the New Covenant family of God.

Baptism is not optional. Baptism is necessary for the Christian.

I hope this helps.

 

[mgrfin]

Guess your going to have to explain to me the the Mystical Body of Christ. What do you mean by that?
#2 question…I notice the baptized infront of Christians. I believe that once you have accepted Christ as your Savior you are a Christian…so… in the CR are you not a Christian unless you are baptized?

Generally, Baptism of water (and the Spirit) makes a person a Christian. You may also be alluding to what the Church refers to as baptism of desire, but that is another issue.

As for being a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, a person must not only be baptised, but must accept the Church, and the Vicar of Christ on earth as its head.

I quote to you some enclyclical letters regarding this issue.
Unam Sanctam: Boniface VIII. 1403
41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

Mystical Body of Christ, Pius XIII 1943:
13. If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression “the Mystical Body of Christ” - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers.

Dominus Jesus, John Paul II
16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50

 

[tabcom]

An adult must have faith and must be baptized to join the Christian family as an adopted son or daughter of God.

Having faith AND must be baptized? Please explain.

 

[tabcom]

I guess I dont understand how at a month old you can do (baptism).

This topic has been discussed recently by many participating in this thread.
Here is a link to infant baptism . . . Infant Baptism.
In it there is much debate regarding what original sin is. I’m on record as saying baby’s inherit a sin nature, not that baby’s are born with sin.

I believe that once you have accepted Christ as your Savior you are a Christian…

IMHO, you are not going to find anyone within this forum that is going to accept this statement. No where in the Bible does it say you can accept Christ as your Savior.

With respects to . . .

Pax quote:
The NT speaks of baptism as the replacement for circumcision.

This point has been debated intensely within this very thread. For all newcomers to the thread, scroll as far back as Post #21, I’ve stated my disagreement with Pax’s statement.

 

[mercygate]

I came to understand that baptism was to remove the cloak received during the birth through the vaginal channel. The cloak that told the story of how birth and pain caused the need for removal of guilt and sin from transgressions, away from freedoms and life. With baptism, removing the cloak of birth and the washing away of the film of earth; hence ‘reborn’, does freedom return. Thereby, making the need for sacraments and devotionals less of a demand for man while on earth. Sacraments and devotionals must be preformed after the climb up the stairs to the alter in the afterlife to gain entrance into heaven, but baptism, water or purging, is suppose to be the cure for the continual cycle of sin imposed on man while on earth in human form as was Jesus. Tell me is is new to you?

I see in your profile that you list your religion as “Jewism”. Your post is a little hard to follow. Is English your native language?

 

[tkthompson244]

IMHO, you are not going to find anyone within this forum that is going to accept this statement. No where in the Bible does it say you can accept Christ as your Savior.

I am not here to try to get anyone here to accept my beliefs. As I said earlier I am here to learn about the CR that I know next to nothing about. Should I not be doing that here?

 

[tabcom]

I am not here to try to get anyone here to accept my beliefs. As I said earlier I am here to learn about the CR that I know next to nothing about. Should I not be doing that here?

You are most welcomed here.

Because this thread on water baptism has been going on now for many weeks, I’d suggest you patiently start back at the beginning and work your way down the posts. Any questions along the way, please ask. We’re all here to learn.

 

[mercygate]

tkthompson244:
IMHO, you are not going to find anyone within this forum that is going to accept this statement. No where in the Bible does it say you can accept Christ as your Savior.

I am not here to try to get anyone here to accept my beliefs. As I said earlier I am here to learn about the CR that I know next to nothing about. Should I not be doing that here?
What’s the CR? Catholic Religion?

This thread is already well developed and quite focused. Your questions are more fundamental than what the main posters here are discussing.

If you have questions, please feel free to post them in threads of your own. But a good place to start is the home page of Catholic Answers. There is a “Library” on the menu at the upper left of the screen. Lots of good tract-length introductory material to the FAQs about Catholicism.

Welcome to the boards, BTW.