Baptism in the Holy Spirit & the Charisms

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A keen interest of mine is the importance of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” and the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit (e.g., the gift of healing, tongues, etc.) which seem to be close to ignored by Roman Catholicism. I would like to see a thread on this important matter.

My experience is that “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” brings about lasting conversion and empowerment with the receiving of extraordinary gifts (all by the Holy Spirit to build up the Church).

If Roman Catholicism continues to essentially ignore the extraordinary value of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” the Catholic Church may not continue to be built up, and this could eventually cause the demise of Roman Catholicism. (I’m speaking here of Roman Catholicism, which is an ism, and not the Church, the Body of Christ, which is far greater than an ism, and will live forever in heaven).

Bible Christians who appreciate the necessity and value of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” and the extraordinary charisms that accompany it, are making incredible inroads in Latin America where almost half of the world’s Catholics live.

These are the signs of the times! How may we awaken Roman Catholicism to the absolute necessity of charismatic (pentecostal) renewal in the Catholic Church?
 
For those of us unfamiliar with the charismatic or pentecostal renewal as you put it, would you explain exactly what “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is? Why do you feel it is necessary when we already have the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation?
 
We have genuine valid baptism in the church. And we don’t need extraordinary signs to believe it. Others may receive the Holy Spirit even if the baptism is not done correctly ( provided they are ignorant ) and there may be some signs that come with the gift of the Holy Spirit too. But baptism is meant to be an initiation into Gods family. God gives us his spirit to make us his children. Through baptism we receive the supernatural virtues of faith, hope and charity. We also receive the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. But the main thing is that we become children of God through baptism. I suppose if you only have 2 sacraments or maybe one, such as baptism and marriage your going to be very focused on them. In the catholic church we not only have the fullness of the truth ( the entirety of christianity ) but we have all seven sacraments, not just one or two. Baptism is just the beginning for us and it usually starts at childhood. We are meant to worship God at Mass every week and pray each day as we grow in our childhood. We then make our first confession and first holy communion. Have you read John :6 for starters. If you don’t eat and drink the Lords body and blood you do not have life in you etc. Many will be forgiven through ignorance. We can have the most intimate contact and union with our creator every day in receiving holy communion , not to mention being present at calvary which takes place on our altars in a miraculous unbloody way every day whilst Jesus offers himself as the eternal victim for our sins. The mass is a miracle. We have in our priests the means God chose to forgive our sins too- confession. Sure we can go straight to God, but shouldn’t we do things the way God wants and trust God and the churches wisdom here? How can we be sure our sorrow is sufficient and we are told about these sacraments in the scriptures and the catholic hurch is the only one established by Christ with St Peter, the one time bishop of Rome, as it’s head. The bible they claim is ours too. The NT was written by catholics and the catjholic church gave us the bible in 2 councils in the 4th century which incidentally is over 1,000 years before these churches you mention even appeared. We have confirmation to strengthen us as soldiers of christ. We have marriage and holy orders. We have the priesthood which is traced back in an unbroken line of succession to the apostles. Can they claim this or very much at all? We have the annointing of the sick. You can write an encyclopedia set about what we have and it’s massively superior to what they have. The point is it doesn’t just end with baptism. We can receive more and more of the holy spirit every day and you can not get anywhere near as much of him as you will get in the catholic church. The last few generations have taken their faith for granted and that’s meant easy pickings for a good preacher with some signs and the odd cripple rising ( and back in bed the next day ). When you study history you learn a great deal about the subject of christianity and the place of primacy the catholic church holds above all other late comers and you see the inestimable positive influence the catholic church has had on the world. The catholic church is the largest charitable organisation in the world. Larger than all others combined by a country mile. If you want to judge catholics you must look to the best, not the worst. Lets look at Mother Tersesa and see if anyone can equal her deeds and work. That would be a good test I think. The pentecostal movement is not for everyone. i don’t like it myself and many don’t like the style, the need for signs, the christian rock and euphoria that it gives. Some do, some don’t.
If the catholic church was the true church and was better as I say would it not follow that satan would do anything to keep people away or out of it even if it meant they got one or two sacraments? He would and does. The poor souls don’t know what their missing. We are the true church with the whole faith and no one else can claim this and prove it, but we can.
 
Richard_Hughes said:
How may we awaken Roman Catholicism to the absolute necessity of charismatic (pentecostal) renewal in the Catholic Church?
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We already have this. The Seven Sacraments! 👍

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) defines all of the Sacraments, this way:

“Sacraments are ‘powers that comes forth’ from the Body of Christ, which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in His Body, the Church. They are ‘the masterworks of God’ in the new and everlasting covenant.” (CCC 1116).

Hope this helps. God bless.
 
I was rather emotional in my first reply so I spent some time to calm down and reflect. I was angry with what you said but not angry with you. I will explain. Many, many people are saying the same or similiar things. After calming down I think you have a good intention and only want what is best for the church. You like most of us are disappointed with some catholics who are not taking their faith seriously or practising it properly. I can understand this as it causes me the greatest grief and I would give just about anything to cure it. There are some things you need to understand though.
We call the church holy mother church because she is like a mother to us. She is not just the family of God and the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother. If someone said bad things about your mom you would be extremely upset I’m sure ( if you had a normal family as I’m sure you do). You are a catholic too and the church is your mother. I love my mother the church more than anything in the world and when someone speaks against her I will try to be charitable but I won’t be silent. You should never speak against your mother. Never.
You may not be aware of a few things. Please take the time to read a brief explaination.
Jesus Christ underwent the greatest suffering and death to give us this church. His suffering was infinite. This church is his body and when we speak against it we are speaking against him too, and not just our mother. In the early church starting with the apostles thousands and thousands of catholics made the ultimate sacrifice so that we could have this church and faith. They shed their blood in agonising deaths by every means imaginable. The church was built on the blood of these martyrs. to this day millions of catholics have sacrificed their lives so we could have this faith. Many more millions have led lives of daily heroic sacrifice to not only spread the faith around the world but to ensure we had the chance to receive it. You should read about the lives of the early martyrs to gain some understanding of what our brothers and sisters in Christ went through to give us this faith. You are my brother and fellow christian and I love you and will pray for you but please think hard before you so publicly attack the church again. You are attacking your own mother, offending your brothers in Christ and not acknowledging the tremendous sacrifice and hard work of so many over the last 2,000 years. The church is made up of sinners and every church is. We all need to focus on fixing ourselves first and then we will see clearly to help others. We should be looking for solutions that will help. A holy life is what is needed and you don’t display one speaking as you have. As a christian the one thing we must do is love. it’s as simple as that. And if you can’t love your mother then who can you love?
i hope you understand what I’m trying to explain. God bless you and keep the faith. millions died so you could have it and there would be no christians without our holy mother the church. We have a lot to be grateful for. Love the church. It’s Gods church.🙂
 
It is true that we have received the grace of God through the Sacraments. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a new Sacrament. It provides for a release of the gifts that each of us has already received by virtue of the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.
It is true that we do not need the gifts to believe, but if we believe why would we not be open to what God has to offer? This openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit is one more step on the journey, one more way in which we know God, not merely as an intellectual concept but as alive within each of us.
I always go back to a story I heard when I was ten. The priest giving the homily had asked “How big is God?” to which a young boy about my age at the time had replied, “God is so big the heavens cannot hold Him and small enought to fit within the heart.” It is easy to see God as larger than the universe. It is when we open ourselves to His power working in our own lives that we come to understand this God who also lives within our heart. It is with this openness that we are able to respond to His call within our lives.
For those who have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, life is never the same was it was before. There is no more complacency.
 
In response to posted replies, I have the following comments & questions for clarification:

Beckycmarie, I can best define “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” by describing what I experienced on April 12 1980 (55 years after being baptized with water and the Spirit in 1925!), “Baptism in the Spirit” (note the parenthesis) was a grace I truly received and experienced after Catholic Christians laid their hands on me in prayer. When I was Baptized in the Spirit,” I experienced a conversion (during which time I had a vision of Christ Jesus on the cross looking at me with compassion and love, and I especially remember blood dripped down across His tortured face!), and since that time, I have had a closer relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus.

I experienced what I truly believe was an empowerment by the Holy Spirit which permanently changed my life (a spiritual empowerment which if I had not received, I would not be writing this now!); and, I experienced receiving spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, including the powerful gift of praying in tongues.

No apology is necessary John Russell, Jr.! I admire your fervor and love for our Catholic Church, a fervor which I can only pray may be imparted by the Holy Spirit to the whole Church!; we both seek truth (amen?) and all I ask is that you read, and reread this thread, carefully, and with an open mind. I am a convert to Roman Catholicism (I have no connection with the Pentecostal Church), and I have studied Catholic history and teachings most of my life.

The Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church is not for everyone? For me, that’s like saying that baptism of water and the Spirit, is not for everyone. On the Day of Pentecost, it seems that all of the disciples received “Baptism in the Spirit.” Why not us? It is there for the asking! Why be afraid? It is NORMAL Christianity!

When St. Paul had his encounter with Christ Jesus on the road to Damascus, he experienced an extraordinary conversion and empowerment by the Spirit. Was it “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” received before being baptized with water and the Spirit? I would call it that. Remember that when, in Damascus, Ananias (a disciple of Christ Jesus) laid hands on Paul in prayer, “things like scales fell from his eyes” (i.e., he was enlightened)? (Acts 9:18)

After his encounter with Christ Jesus, did Paul experience a “new birth,” was he “born from above”? (Jn 3:8-10) Paul received charisms (the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, and other extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit), and all this before he was baptized with water! Was it the same “Baptism in the Spirit” we know today? Paul’s conversion was awesosme.

Is “Baptism in the Spirit” absolutely necessary? I do believe that only God has the full answer to that, and He has revealed it to us, His Holy Church – are we listening?

The experience commonly called “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” (not to be confused with the Seven Sacraments), is not disapproved by the Magisterium of the Church. Why? Is it because there is evidence that the experience is an instrument and sign by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ? That has been my experience. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, even Christ and the Church are referred to as sacraments.” (774-775).

Could the Sacrament of Confirmation possibly have been the ritualization and formalization of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” by Catholic leaders, centuries ago? Are the awesome graces and chaisms received during “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” on the Holy Spirit’s timetable, or on the church hierarchy’s timetable? We need to call on the Lord for the answer.
 
Hello
I think I understand you better now. i didn’t know who you were , your experiences or age. And it’s often hard to understand what someone is saying when it’s written and you have no other knowledge to go by. you speak in a language that I’m not very accustomed to as well so it can be a little confusing trying to know what you mean. One has to be a little presumptuos and even judgmental at times on here or one could not say anything.

You are on in years by anyones reckoning and trying to do Gods will no doubt, have good intentions and deserve to spend your twilight years in peace. So i will just say a few things about myself and in general. i’m happy you found something that works for you. I have and continue to find something that works for me too. You are probably retired so you have a little time to read. As a faithful servant of the Lord you may find my posts comforting to know younger generations do love God and his church too and will work to ensure she goes on.

The Holy Spirit breathes where he will and how he will. Each of us are given different gifts. We are to be grateful for what gift/s we receive and use them for the glory of God and the building up of his body. Some have the gift of tongues or healing etc. Some are mystics and receive the most extraordinary gifts. And there are others I’ll mention.

The various gifts are given for a reason and we must ensure we use them accordingly. We should not seek gifts or desire them but simply accept them with gratitude, except for the seven gifts.

Some people with a special mssion in the church such as the founders of religious orders receive extraordinary graces and gifts and charisms. PJP11 tells us this is to help them fulfill a special mission and others including priests and religious in these orders should not expect to experience what their founder did.

The charisms are good if we get them and you must judge on a case by case basis but to seek these can be a sign of spiritual immaturity. I say can, not is. I suppose you can say it about others too.
The charisms are only useful when used properly as said. Possessing charisms can help one spiritually but they don’t make or mean your holy in themself. They can encourage you to holiness but don’t make you holy.

Mystical experinces are intended to make one holy and they are for that purpose whereas a charism is something beneficial to you or someone but it does not make you holy in itself.

Mystics receive ecstasies, consolations, visions, locutios etc to help and encourage them in the mist of the great trials they go through on their way to becoming saints.

The gifts and fruits of the holy spirit are very important and we all get these at baptism and they increase throughout our life if we do as God wills. Many people may receive no gift of tongues etc but they may have the most fearsome fortitude in persecution, or immense wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the truths of faith, or be the most prudent person you’ve ever met. These are all gifts from the holy spirit we all get and can increase with hard work. The fruits make us very christ like and holy too.
 
A little about my story
When I came into the hurch my first encounters were with Opus Dei and each month at the recollection the priest would keep saying you have to be a saint and he would talk about what you must do to be a saint. I was feeling very out of place because being a newbie I assumed they were all saints who did what this priest said. Going back a little my brother spoke to me about the faith when he found it and I was very interested too when he told me about it. One day I was away working and staying at a motel and there was a bible in there. I thought i’d take a look. I was amazed at what I found. I read the whole lot in 24 hrs.At the end I had faith and had never been more scared in my life because I believed in God and his church but had no idea what I was supposed to do about it. I remember begging God to teach me and show me what to do and telling him I will do it.
Back to the recollection evenings. This priest kept saying you have to be a saint. Soon after i started seeing him for spiritual direction. I asked him a funny question. I said, you know how you’re always saying you have to be saint? he said , yes? I said, well are you a saint? He just smiled. I think he is though.
With this experience I begged God to make me a saint. That’s what I’m supposed to do I thought. I read about lots of saints early on and found they all did extraordinary things and many were mystics. I wanted to be like this and be a mystic because that was what saints did. I tried hard to be a saint and wanted to be a mystic and have mystical experiences. I was hell bent on becoming a saint. But I just couldn’t do it and still have a long way to go incidentally. So for a long time I wanted extraordinary graces and gifts etc. I kept pestering God to give me what I want and a few times he even did. No doubt just to shut me up and keep me happy whilst I grew up a bit. I feel like I’ve had a 100 yrs of experience with God crammed into 20 yrs. I don’t know if others feel that or not. I’ve found God really does keep me in the palm of his hand and every hair on my head is numbered. I’ve had a lot of ups and downs and good times and bad times in my 20 yrs in the church and I’ve had continual suffering, sickness, trials and persecution since I entered the church. I’ve really worked hard in the spiritual life at times and made progress along the way. In recent yrs I’ve noticed that all that learning is becoming more and more useful as the holy spirit seems to be increasing his gifts. Like I always heard and accepted that all the saints knew the great value of the cross and really loved the cross and blessed God for it. I accepted this but never understood it much. In very recent times I’ve begun to understand that all this past 20 yrs whilst I’ve had all my imperfect desires, plans and ideas on how God should make me a saint. My ideas on what to do etc and I should point out it must have driven my spiritual director up the wall dealing with me, that all through this last 20 yrs I had no idea what to do or what was best for me and mostly didn’t know or appreciate what God was doing for me. God has been sanctifying and purifying me with the cross. I’m not a massochist but he’s shown me how much blessings have come my way and to others through and with the cross -it’s mind blowing. The secret is the cross. This is what God uses to make saints. I have a long way to go but I’ve learnt a valuable lesson. Gifts, charisms, signs, miracles, tongues and the like are fine and good but the greatest gift God can give one is the cross. The heavier the cross the more he loves you too. It’s never too heavy either. I love my cross and am very grateful to God for it.
I love God and his church because they are all goodness, truth, and there is nothing bad in them. I love them because you’d have to be mad not to if you know them. I am so grateful to God for all he’s done for me. I want to repay him as best I can.
Hope this helps see another point ofv view on the question. God bless:) 👍
 
Richard_Hughes said:
In response to posted replies, I have the following comments & questions for clarification:

Beckycmarie, I can best define “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” by describing what I experienced on April 12 1980 **(**55 years after being baptized with water and the Spirit in 1925!****)
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In that case I’ll call you Mr. Hughes. What a treasure it is to hear from, I’ll say, a more experienced Catholic. 😉

I would completely agree with you that what each of us needs is a personal encounter with God. Often we don’t recognize the gifts bestowed on us in Baptism and strengthened by Confirmation, and that God desires a very close and deep relationship with us every step of the way.

If the experience of such a “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” helps to bring this about, then I think it’s a good thing. But I think it’s one way God may choose to bring us closer to Himself. People can become very close to God without ever having that charismatic experience, so I don’t think it should be required for everyone.

On the other hand, I don’t think those outside the Charismatic movement should belittle those within it simply because their spirituality is different from those of us with a more quiet, introverted spirituality. We are many parts of the body of Christ, each of us with different functions but all working together to advance the Kingdom of God.

I’d agree with you, Mr. Hughes, that this world is desperately in need of more people who are part of the Kingdom. Pope John Paul II spoke of a coming springtime for the Church, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I think we are in the midst of the winter now, and that as the world gets darker, God is pouring out more grace and mercy - graces which the souls responding to them will use to bring about the springtime.
 
So I wonder, in order to ‘fully’ experience God and faith and the Holy Spirit, MUST I speak in tongues and flap my arms around and give prophecy? And if so, can you point out where it says that in the Bible or has been decreed by the church? Because all this time I’ve been trying to follow Christ and live as He has asked us, and turn from sin, and serve others, receive the sacraments. If all I need to do is pull a couple of parlor tricks, then I’ve been doing waaay more than that and need to scale back.
 
thomasf said:
So I wonder, in order to ‘fully’ experience God and faith and the Holy Spirit, MUST I speak in tongues and flap my arms around and give prophecy?
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thomasf, this is the kind of belittling I was referring to in post #10. I don’t recall the OP saying anything about “flapping arms around” - an image you’ve used to make charismatics sound ridiculous.

BarbaraTherese started an excellent thread on respecting others in the Body of Christ, a thread that I think is worth reviewing:

Mutual respect and esteem building up Christ’s Body rather than tearing at it (John Chrysostom)
 
beckycmarie said:
thomasf, this is the kind of belittling I was referring to in post #10. I don’t recall the OP saying anything about “flapping arms around” - an image you’ve used to make charismatics sound ridiculous.

BarbaraTherese started an excellent thread on respecting others in the Body of Christ, a thread that I think is worth reviewing:

Mutual respect and esteem building up Christ’s Body rather than tearing at it (John Chrysostom)
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This is a continuation of what you are are ready stated, or rather a synthesis from one of the first Charismatic Conferences I attended, “Strife is a luxury that Christians cannot afford.”
I take at face value that each of us as Christians has the same goal, eternal life spent in heaven.

The gifts that God gives us are for his greater glory. Those of us who have been blessed with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit know God on a more intimate level than before the experience.
There are some who come into the Renewal with very little background in the Christian faith. They may have been baptized, but never catechized. Others are priests and religious who have already dedicated their lives to Christ.
For some the experience is dramatic. For others, there is simply a greater awareness of God’s action within the person’s life. The preaching of a charismatic priest may take on a zeal that was lacking prior to the experience.
I still like the story of a Carmelite nun that I heard shortly after my own experience. This nun already had an intimate relationship with God. She spent hours daily in contemplative prayer. Why would she want the gift of tongues? This was her question, but her response to God was, “If it is from You, then why would I refuse?”
The fact that I have received extraordinary gifts does not mean that I am better or holier than somebody who has not received these extraordinary gifts. What it has given me is a greater appreciation of who God is, a fuller prayer life, and a deeper desire for the Sacraments.
 
beckycmarie said:
thomasf, this is the kind of belittling I was referring to in post #10. I don’t recall the OP saying anything about “flapping arms around” - an image you’ve used to make charismatics sound ridiculous.

BarbaraTherese started an excellent thread on respecting others in the Body of Christ, a thread that I think is worth reviewing:

Mutual respect and esteem building up Christ’s Body rather than tearing at it (John Chrysostom)
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I’m sorry but I get tired of hearing about how the catholic church, the one that Jesus founded and promised would never fail, is going to fail because we don’t all practice charismatic christianity or push the whole idea of ‘baptism of the holy spirit’. The church has plenty of charismatic catholics that prefer to explore those gifts, and those who seek that should be allowed to. But those that don’t shouldn’t be condemned either. IMO, the goal of salvation is to get closer to Christ. And that is exactly what the catholic church has been giving to its people for 2000 years. A plan of salvation that allows us to grow closer to Christ and to become holy and worthy of salvation. If that means doing the charismatic thing, good for you. If it means simply going to church and leading a nice, quiet, normal faith life without the tongues and the flapping, then good for you too. It’s been done for two thousand years, and there are plenty of examples of holy people and saints that lived a holy, pious life in a variety of ways, and gained salvation just fine. Whether its talking in tongues or serving the poor, people should be allowed to pursue their path to God as long as it brings them to God. Not having a church full of charismatics that have been ‘baptized in the spirit’ isn’t going to destroy the church that Christ gave us.
 
DebChris said:
For those who have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, life is never the same was it was before. There is no more complacency.
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Amen. For me I found it was like renewing the baptism promises made by my parents on my behalf as an infant, but this time I got to make the promises from my heart myself and allow the Holy Spirit to renew those promises and that rebirth in me as a infant, in order for my soul to truly grow not only in my relationship with God, but to set fire to my soul so my soul could truly live out her baptism. It set forth a purification process in my soul and awakened my heart more to the understanding and experience of three members of the Trinity, which allowed me to know them and experience the HS, the Son and the Father as three in one, not just as one. Before I knew of one, but now I know of all three more intimately. The baptism in the Spirit experience set my soul alive, and I feel blessed that I’ve had that experience and blessed overall.
 
So many opinions and expressions of feelings! It is mind boggling! Alleluia! There are so many diversified “Catholic answers”, and somewhere amongst them is the truth. Thank you “Catholic Answers” for providing this opportunity! There is so much, but I would like to share a few thoughts. Hopefully, with the Holy Spirit as my “Ghost writer.” (Pun intended.)

This is what I am led to believe: 1) By definition a “charismatic” Christian is one who is OPEN to the Holy Spirit and His extraordinary gifts; 2) the experience of a Christian being “charismatic” is a gift of the Holy Spirit (like the gift of faith!); 3) many Catholic Christians I know are “charismatic” (as previously defined) and many are not even aware of it, but often Christians will see manifestations of spiritual conversion in their charismatic Christian sisters and brothers (our entire music ministry is made up of charismatic Catholics! If it were not for them, we would have no music at Mass!); 4) one does not have to attend a “Life in the Spirit” seminar to be “Baptized in the Holy Spirit” and experience conversion and empowerment, and receive additional gifts of the Spirit (it can happen any time, on the Holy Spirit’s schedule!), but like RCIA, a “Life in the Spirit” seminar helps; 5) as St. Paul said, he would like all of us to have the gift of tongues (as did he), but it is NOT necessary (and no one has said or implied that it is), how much better, Paul said, to have the gift of prophesy (how many of us have that, speaking FROM — not for – God?!); and lastly, 6) in our discussion about the Holy Spirit and His charisms, let’s not read into another’s writings things that are not there, or were never said. Even innocent, unintentional distortion, disinformation and confusion gives Satan his power, and he is there on the sideline hoping to blow our discussion asunder. Amen?

kyria, I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in your writings – it comes from your heart! With reference to the “Baptized in the Holy Spirit” experience, you said that it, “SET FIRE TO MY SOUL” (emphasis mine). Everyone, is that not what the Sacrament of Confirmation supposed to do, but often does not!!? The Holy Spirit “SETS OUR SPIRIT ON FIRE” on HIS time schedule, I do believe. All we need to do is OPEN our hearts to His blessings and gifts!

Tomasf, one thing I have noticed over the years, people I know (especially priests) who have benefited most from conversion and empowerment by the Spirit through “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” began with nothing but distain for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement in the Church. In a conference I attended, a priest told thousands of the faithful that his conversion and empowerment saved his priestly vocation. Another dear priest (now retired) said much the same. I’m still praying for another priest, a Jesuit who once visited our parish and spoke disparagingly about the Renewal in his homily on Pentecost Sunday! Was he doing the work of the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit? Pray for him!

When I hear people unquestioningly defend their view of Roman Catholicism and its precepts (remember, the Church is all encompassing and greater than an ism!), I am reminded of how (before his conversion and empowerment) St. Paul fervently defended the hierarchical leadership, religious practices, and 613 laws of Judaism. (Note: Jesus was executed because He broke some of those laws!)

Somehow, the laws of Moses became of more concern, for Paul, than the chosen people who were expected to live by them. However, there was hope for Paul. After his conversion and empowerment by the Spirit of God, Paul learned that his “churchianity,” and fight against the Jewish Christian sect, was all futility, because his efforts lacked soundness, and above all, LOVE. Paul’s approach to serving Yahweh was devoid of LOVE (on which Jesus said “the whole law and the prophets depend”), therefore Paul’s approach was not in accordance with Christ Jesus’ new Way. We need to take a lesson from Paul, and not be afraid (when evangelizing) to lead with LOVE.
 
Richard_Hughes said:
When I hear people unquestioningly defend their view of Roman Catholicism and its precepts (remember, the Church is all encompassing and greater than an ism!), I am reminded of how (before his conversion and empowerment) St. Paul fervently defended the hierarchical leadership, religious practices, and 613 laws of Judaism. (Note: Jesus was executed because He broke some of those laws!)

Somehow, the laws of Moses became of more concern, for Paul, than the chosen people who were expected to live by them. However, there was hope for Paul. After his conversion and empowerment by the Spirit of God, Paul learned that his “churchianity,” and fight against the Jewish Christian sect, was all futility, because his efforts lacked soundness, and above all, LOVE. Paul’s approach to serving Yahweh was devoid of LOVE (on which Jesus said “the whole law and the prophets depend”), therefore Paul’s approach was not in accordance with Christ Jesus’ new Way. We need to take a lesson from Paul, and not be afraid (when evangelizing) to lead with LOVE.
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The difference is, what Paul was defending did not bring salvation. What the church has to offer, with or without charismatic life, does. Salvation does not require speaking in tongues or any of the other charisms, and the one true faith has never taught that. What it has taught has served the faithful well for 2000 years and brought many, many, many people to salvation that never exeperienced any charisms.

The church does not teach rules or laws like that of the old testament jews. It does teach following and emualting Christ, growing closer to God, and rejection of sin. Whether or not that means following a charismatic life is irrelevant, as long as you do this. The sacraments of the church, which Jesus instituted Himself, are conduits of grace and ARE necessary for salvation, whether or not you are charismatic or ‘baptised in the spirit’. You cannot replace the sacraments with a charismatic worship style or ‘baptism in the spirit’. The grace and power of the sacraments are necessary, charismatic worship is not.

And btw, there are plenty of non-charismatic Catholics, and daresay I Christians, that serve the Lord in love. The charismatic part has nothing to do with it.
 
Richard_Hughes said:
So many opinions and expressions of feelings! It is mind boggling! Alleluia! There are so many diversified “Catholic answers”, and somewhere amongst them is the truth. Thank you “Catholic Answers” for providing this opportunity! There is so much, but I would like to share a few thoughts. Hopefully, with the Holy Spirit as my “Ghost writer.” (Pun intended.)

This is what I am led to believe: 1) By definition a “charismatic” Christian is one who is OPEN to the Holy Spirit and His extraordinary gifts; 2) the experience of a Christian being “charismatic” is a gift of the Holy Spirit (like the gift of faith!); 3) many Catholic Christians I know are “charismatic” (as previously defined) and many are not even aware of it, but often Christians will see manifestations of spiritual conversion in their charismatic Christian sisters and brothers (our entire music ministry is made up of charismatic Catholics! If it were not for them, we would have no music at Mass!); 4) one does not have to attend a “Life in the Spirit” seminar to be “Baptized in the Holy Spirit” and experience conversion and empowerment, and receive additional gifts of the Spirit (it can happen any time, on the Holy Spirit’s schedule!), but like RCIA, a “Life in the Spirit” seminar helps; 5) as St. Paul said, he would like all of us to have the gift of tongues (as did he), but it is NOT necessary (and no one has said or implied that it is), how much better, Paul said, to have the gift of prophesy (how many of us have that, speaking FROM — not for – God?!); and lastly, 6) in our discussion about the Holy Spirit and His charisms, let’s not read into another’s writings things that are not there, or were never said. Even innocent, unintentional distortion, disinformation and confusion gives Satan his power, and he is there on the sideline hoping to blow our discussion asunder. Amen?

kyria, I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in your writings – it comes from your heart! With reference to the “Baptized in the Holy Spirit” experience, you said that it, “SET FIRE TO MY SOUL” (emphasis mine). Everyone, is that not what the Sacrament of Confirmation supposed to do, but often does not!!? The Holy Spirit “SETS OUR SPIRIT ON FIRE” on HIS time schedule, I do believe. All we need to do is OPEN our hearts to His blessings and gifts!

Tomasf, one thing I have noticed over the years, people I know (especially priests) who have benefited most from conversion and empowerment by the Spirit through “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” began with nothing but distain for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement in the Church. In a conference I attended, a priest told thousands of the faithful that his conversion and empowerment saved his priestly vocation. Another dear priest (now retired) said much the same. I’m still praying for another priest, a Jesuit who once visited our parish and spoke disparagingly about the Renewal in his homily on Pentecost Sunday! Was he doing the work of the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit? Pray for him!

When I hear people unquestioningly defend their view of Roman Catholicism and its precepts (remember, the Church is all encompassing and greater than an ism!), I am reminded of how (before his conversion and empowerment) St. Paul fervently defended the hierarchical leadership, religious practices, and 613 laws of Judaism. (Note: Jesus was executed because He broke some of those laws!)

Somehow, the laws of Moses became of more concern, for Paul, than the chosen people who were expected to live by them. However, there was hope for Paul. After his conversion and empowerment by the Spirit of God, Paul learned that his “churchianity,” and fight against the Jewish Christian sect, was all futility, because his efforts lacked soundness, and above all, LOVE. Paul’s approach to serving Yahweh was devoid of LOVE (on which Jesus said “the whole law and the prophets depend”), therefore Paul’s approach was not in accordance with Christ Jesus’ new Way. We need to take a lesson from Paul, and not be afraid (when evangelizing) to lead with LOVE.
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i think many catholics are put off the charismatic movement because of spiritual immaturity. I’m not saying all are thus or that the movements bad but perhaps it would attract more people if it had a different approach. Perhaps not. There are many ways in the church. God bless.👍
 
Richard,
You are right. The Charismatic Renewal is more about being open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit than it is to the gifts themselves. The experience itself is a gift, like faith. What people see is external manifestations. What cannot be seen is the interior conversion that takes place over time within the person’s life, as the relationship with God continues to develop.
As I have mentioned on other threads, you may not know that the person sitting beside you on the pew has undergone this experience.
No, a person need not go to a Charismatic Conference or attend a Life in the Spirit Seminar to receive the Baptism in the Spirit. In my case, I did not attend any seminars until after I had received the Baptism in the Spirit. It was a difficult period of my life. God was calling me to let go of many things. I went on an Easter retreat. I found myself returning to the retreat center where a charismatic group met weekly. My Baptism in the Spirit happened on Ascension Thursday. I already had a sense that it would occur by Pentecost.
I too have heard the witness of priests stating the Baptism of the Holy Spirit saved their vocations. They experienced the true power of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
As scripture says, I am merely a branch on the vine that is Christ. Without Him, I can do nothing. All things are possible with God.
 
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