Baptism in the Holy Spirit & the Charisms

[Rothchild]

I have read through much of this thread, although admittedly, not all. I have a couple thoughts.

“Without [the Holy Spirit] what would the Church be reduced to? Certainly it would be a great historical movement, a complex and solid social institution, perhaps even a type of humanitarian agency. In truth many regard the Church in this way because they observe it from outside the viewpoint of the faith. Yet in reality, its true nature and its real historic presence has ceaselessly been guided and formed by the Spirit and the Lord.”

I don’t understand how this statement by Pope Benedict is directly addressing the charismatic movement. It is doctrine that the Holy Spirit directs and leads the Church.

As individuals, we all receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit at Baptism and these gifts are strengthened and sealed at Confirmation. We have ONE baptism in the Trinity. Personally, I think the term “baptism in the Holy Spirit” can cause confusion leading people to wonder whether the Sacrament of Baptism is enough. This is why the Church is very careful not to “rebaptize” someone who many have been previously validly baptized…hence, we have Conditional Baptism. It is an insult to the Holy Spirit to rebaptize. Archbishop Sheen preached that there is no baptism in the Holy Spirit apart from the Sacrament of Baptism.

I was recently at a charismatic conference for 3 days. Although it was a bit uncomfortable, I prayed for God’s will. If he wanted to pour additional gifts upon me I was open to receive them. It was a bit disconcerting when I went up to the priest with an open mind and heart and he tried to convince me that I had the gift of tongues.

Personally, if someone wishes to worship in a charismatic manner, more power to them. I don’t subscribe to the idea that if you don’t experience this outpouring you are somehow not open to receiving the gifts. I don’t recall Sister Faustina experiencing union with Christ in this way. As a matter of fact, she spent many years with her Confessors in a very guarded fashion, worrying that the voice she was hearing may not be Christ.

Many of the great saints talk about dark or dry periods, some lasting years. I don’t think they lacked faith that the Holy Spirit would guide them.

My biggest concern is that I see many people within the charismatic movement that tend to think that if you don’t receive gifts of tongues, slain in the spirit, etc, you are not being open enough to receive them. This bothers me. But I also see very devout, prayerful people producing much fruit within this movement as well.

 

[DebChris]

I have read through much of this thread, although admittedly, not all. I have a couple thoughts.

“Without [the Holy Spirit] what would the Church be reduced to? Certainly it would be a great historical movement, a complex and solid social institution, perhaps even a type of humanitarian agency. In truth many regard the Church in this way because they observe it from outside the viewpoint of the faith. Yet in reality, its true nature and its real historic presence has ceaselessly been guided and formed by the Spirit and the Lord.”

I don’t understand how this statement by Pope Benedict is directly addressing the charismatic movement. It is doctrine that the Holy Spirit directs and leads the Church.

As individuals, we all receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit at Baptism and these gifts are strengthened and sealed at Confirmation. We have ONE baptism in the Trinity. Personally, I think the term “baptism in the Holy Spirit” can cause confusion leading people to wonder whether the Sacrament of Baptism is enough. This is why the Church is very careful not to “rebaptize” someone who many have been previously validly baptized…hence, we have Conditional Baptism. It is an insult to the Holy Spirit to rebaptize. Archbishop Sheen preached that there is no baptism in the Holy Spirit apart from the Sacrament of Baptism.

I was recently at a charismatic conference for 3 days. Although it was a bit uncomfortable, I prayed for God’s will. If he wanted to pour additional gifts upon me I was open to receive them. It was a bit disconcerting when I went up to the priest with an open mind and heart and he tried to convince me that I had the gift of tongues.

Personally, if someone wishes to worship in a charismatic manner, more power to them. I don’t subscribe to the idea that if you don’t experience this outpouring you are somehow not open to receiving the gifts. I don’t recall Sister Faustina experiencing union with Christ in this way. As a matter of fact, she spent many years with her Confessors in a very guarded fashion, worrying that the voice she was hearing may not be Christ.

Many of the great saints talk about dark or dry periods, some lasting years. I don’t think they lacked faith that the Holy Spirit would guide them.

My biggest concern is that I see many people within the charismatic movement that tend to think that if you don’t receive gifts of tongues, slain in the spirit, etc, you are not being open enough to receive them. This bothers me. But I also see very devout, prayerful people producing much fruit within this movement as well.

You are right in stating that the term “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is problematic. It does need clarification since it is not a new Sacrament, but rather a release of the gifts that each of us has already received through Baptism and Confirmation. For many Catholics, these gifts have been placed in a closet and left unopened. We are not Anabaptists. We are not rebaptized.

It is good that you are open to whatever gifts, God may choose to give you, or activate in your life. Having these charisms does not mean I am holier or more devout than a person in whom these special gifts are not manifested.
Discernment is important when it comes to knowing whether or not the words being heard are in reality from Christ. St. Faustina lacked fellowship with anybody other than her confessor to test whether or not what she heard truly was from God. Discernment is also a charismatic gift. As Jesus said, “My sheep know my voice.” Did Faustina not in time come to recognize the voice she heard, and in obedience write what was said?

For some this Baptism in the Holy Spirit can be dramatic, as it was for me. My prayer language is expressed in song (and I am tone deaf). My pastor immediately saw the changes when I told him what had happened and the consequences I knew I would face on the home front. For others, the changes are quieter, taking place over time. Very often, these are the servants whose special charisms are just as important as the more overt gifts.

 

[Dorothy]

For many years I was involved with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and I benefitted from it and it helped me to be able to share my faith and come out of my shell.

I believe that the purpose for these blessings is to come closer to the Lord. I also believe that once this has happened, and a person begins to pray more, learn more about his faith, and has the desire to share with others about it, then what the Lord wanted was accomplished. The person’s prayer life then becomes more interior, and he/she is more committed to growing in virtue and serving in the Church in various ways.

The enthusiasm show by those in the renewal is a result of their coming to an awareness of how much God loves them. Now they have to live it out, and it gets sorted out. This can happen after being prayed over, or it can happen to someone who never heard of the charismatic movement, but due to their committed life of prayer is being drawn closer and closer to the Lord.

Remember, that being prayed over for an infilling of the Holy Spirit is a sacramental, not a Sacrament.

 

[Richard_Hughes]

How right you are Richard. That echoes what the Holy Father said this Pentecost:
“Without [the Holy Spirit] what would the Church be reduced to? Certainly it would be a great historical movement, a complex and solid social institution, perhaps even a type of humanitarian agency. In truth many regard the Church in this way because they observe it from outside the viewpoint of the faith. Yet in reality, its true nature and its real historic presence has ceaselessly been guided and formed by the Spirit and the Lord.”

I was also encouraged by the Holy Father’s recent directive to priests worldwide "to welcome the new springtime which the Spirit is now bringing about in the Church, not least through the ecclesial movements and the new communities. To “discover with faith, recognize with joy and foster diligently the many and varied charismatic gifts of the laity, whether these be of a humble or more exalted kind.” Why? He continues, to “build thriving Christian communities in which the miracles which accompanied the first preaching of the Gospel can be repeated.”

Go Papa Bennie!

Thank you MisterCorduroy! This takes us back to my original Post: “How may we awaken Roman Catholicism to the absolute necessity of charismatic (pentecostal) renewal in the Catholic Church?” I might add: Will an awakening come only when Roman Catholicism finally understands the Holy Spirit’s will through the sense of the faithful (“sensus fidelium”), with respect to this matter?

(Since you are new on this Thread, please understand that in the following, I will be speaking of the demise of Roman Catholicism (the institutional dimension of the Church) which is an ism. I will not be speaking of the demise of the Church, the Body of Christ which is far greater than an ism. The Church will live forever in heaven; Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, is earthbound, because it would have no purpose in heaven. Therefore, it is Roman Catholicism — the temporal institution – that is vulnerable, and needs the reawakening I speak of! )

I truly believe that if Roman Catholicism only keeps talking about the value of the charismatic (pentecostal) renewal, and does not take a more positive and active stance toward the Pentecost experience (from the top down!), this neglect could eventually cause the demise of Roman Catholicism. For many years, there has been a need for a conversion – a “New Pentecost” – in the Catholic Church, from its leaning toward religiosity, to a renewed embracing of the original spirituality of Pentecost (thus Vatican II was called!).

Yet, the majority of the Catholic clergy seem reluctant to get involved with pentecostal (i.e., charismatic) renewal in the Catholic Church. An increase in the Pentecost experience in the Catholic Church (with its awesome experiences of conversion and empowerment), apparently must begin with the clergy (as on the Day of Pentecost!), and only the holy Spirit of God can do that!

Perhaps, our lay role is simply to continue praying for a “New Pentecost” miracle in the Catholic Church, and to persevere by using our God given charisms toward one objective – the miracle of a church-wide charismatic renewal, as on the Day of Pentecost. That may be the Holy Spirit’s role for us.

Confirmation may need to radically change, as has (and is) the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In the Holy Spirit, anything is possible!

I do believe that the Pentecost experience needs to be prominent for the survival of any Christian denomination, and especially for Roman Catholicism because of its diminishing priesthood. The common lack of a true understanding (by Catholic families and all too many clergy) of the Pentecost experience and the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit (all of the gifts: healing, tongues, etc.), may be the primary reason for our diminishing priesthood. The Holy Spirit will have the last say. Amen?

Shalom,
Richard

 

[DebChris]

And who are the men most being called at this moment to the priesthood, but those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?
I do not worry about the longevity of the Roman Catholic Church which is protected by the Holy Spirit, as the teaching of Jesus Christ (Tradition) are handed down through the ages to those of us who live in modern times.
The Church is more than an institution. It is us. It is we who form the Body of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who works through each of us to unite its members to one another. But not just those who claim membership in the institutional Church, but those who may have been separated. If we look at the years since Vatican II we will even find different churches being reunited with the one Church in union with Rome. I do have a list of the churches which are in union with Rome and those which are not yet there.

Shortly after I became a part of the Charismatic Renewal, I read The Fall of the Roman Church. I do not have the same pessimistic view of Christ’s Church as the author. In time, as the Holy Spirit continues to work through the members of the Charismatic Renewal, I see the capitalization fall from charismatic so that it truly reflects Christ’s movement in each of our lives, and not something that is seen by many (on these forums anyway) as somehow separate from the Church.
With Vatican II, the laity within the Catholic Church has been invited to participate more fully in the Eucharist and other aspects of Church life. Who of us is answering this call? Again, is it not those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit? The gifts we have received are not simply for ourselves. They are to be shared. They are to be used for the upbuilding of the Church. That is what I see taking place.

It seems like there is still a tendency, despite the laity’s increased role in the life of the Church, to blame the hierarchy because spiritual progress or growth does not match the speed that we mere mortals expect. The clergy needs to respond not only to those who have fully embraced Christ as personal Lord and Savior, but also those who may be lukewarm and unsure about what the future holds, to those who feel that the Church may be changing too quickly, who are still feeling growth pains.

I have been blessed to be present as priests received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and their increased zeal for preaching the gospel. I saw one of these men elevated to the position of bishop. The Mass at the last FIRE rally I attended was concelebrated by two bishops, both Charismatic.

 

[DebChris]

As I flipped channels on the television, I landed on Joyce Meyers.
Her theme was “Staying in awe of God.” With the Baptism of the Spirit, we become aware of God’s awesome power and how He is working in our lives. We are awed, amazed at has done. What happens over time is that we become used to seeing these things. They become commonplace and we are no longer awed.
Why doesn’t God just work miracles so that unbelievers will believe? Look at Scripture and all He had done for the Israelites, yet they failed to see.

A story from Monday night’s prayer meeting. There was an island in the middle of the Pacific. A priest came and converted the island. He trained a young man through seminary When the young man was ordained by the bishop, the old priest left. The people on the island were forgotten for many years. Finally, a representative from the bishop went to check on the people of the island to see how they were doing. As the native priest said Mass, he poured water into the chalice which immediately turned to wine. The bishop’s representative asked how he did that. “Did what?” There were no grapes on the island with which to make wine. Water changing into wine happened at every Mass.

 

[grannymh]

In the Holy Spirit, anything is possible!

Shalom,
Richard

To those who seriously want a New Pentecost, please go to

www.nsc-chariscenter.org

 

[Richard_Hughes]

And who are the men most being called at this moment to the priesthood, but those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?
I do not worry about the longevity of the Roman Catholic Church which is protected by the Holy Spirit, as the teaching of Jesus Christ (Tradition) are handed down through the ages to those of us who live in modern times.
The Church is more than an institution. It is us. It is we who form the Body of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who works through each of us to unite its members to one another. But not just those who claim membership in the institutional Church, but those who may have been separated. If we look at the years since Vatican II we will even find different churches being reunited with the one Church in union with Rome. I do have a list of the churches which are in union with Rome and those which are not yet there.

Shortly after I became a part of the Charismatic Renewal, I read The Fall of the Roman Church. I do not have the same pessimistic view of Christ’s Church as the author. In time, as the Holy Spirit continues to work through the members of the Charismatic Renewal, I see the capitalization fall from charismatic so that it truly reflects Christ’s movement in each of our lives, and not something that is seen by many (on these forums anyway) as somehow separate from the Church.
With Vatican II, the laity within the Catholic Church has been invited to participate more fully in the Eucharist and other aspects of Church life. Who of us is answering this call? Again, is it not those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit? The gifts we have received are not simply for ourselves. They are to be shared. They are to be used for the upbuilding of the Church. That is what I see taking place.

It seems like there is still a tendency, despite the laity’s increased role in the life of the Church, to blame the hierarchy because spiritual progress or growth does not match the speed that we mere mortals expect. The clergy needs to respond not only to those who have fully embraced Christ as personal Lord and Savior, but also those who may be lukewarm and unsure about what the future holds, to those who feel that the Church may be changing too quickly, who are still feeling growth pains.

I have been blessed to be present as priests received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and their increased zeal for preaching the gospel. I saw one of these men elevated to the position of bishop. The Mass at the last FIRE rally I attended was concelebrated by two bishops, both Charismatic.

Aloha DebChris:

I hope that the following will offer “spiritual food” for thought:

In your Post (#201) you asked: “And who are the men most being called at this moment to the priesthood, but those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?”

I have no way of knowing if what you say is correct, but I hope you are right! Maybe there are more priests than we know, who have experienced “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”(as defined in this Thread).

Can anyone lead me to a survey that shows the percentage of Catholic priests (both elders and “youngers”) who have had a “Pentecost experience”? In other words, priests who have had the awesome Pentecost experience of conversion and empowerment, with the blessing of receiving additional charisms imparted by the Holy Spirit (all blessings experienced by some during “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”). The faithful have the right to know.

I would appreciate the opportunity to see such a survey, especially if it is categorized by age and all 20 or so rites of the Catholic Church (not just the “Latin” Roman Rite). How many Catholic priests are truly open to the extraordinary gifts (including prophecy, healing, tongues, discernment of spirits, etc.), and have taken action to encourage such gifts of the Spirit, and the charismatic renewal as a whole? Maybe more than we know!

If there have been no surveys, maybe the bishops (or a Catholic magazine) would be interested in asking these questions, as one of their surveys. What could be more important, as a spiritual guide, for Roman Catholicism of the future?

A survey may give a peek at what may be the sense of the faithful (sensus fidelium), through which the Holy Spirit guides the Church** as a whole** (i.e., both clergy and laity). Amen?

Peace,
Richard

 

[grannymh]

Aloha DebChris:

I hope that the following will offer “spiritual food” for thought:

In your Post (#201) you asked: “And who are the men most being called at this moment to the priesthood, but those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?”

I have no way of knowing if what you say is correct, but I hope you are right! Maybe there are more priests than we know, who have experienced “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”(as defined in this Thread).

Can anyone lead me to a survey that shows the percentage of Catholic priests (both elders and “youngers”) who have had a “Pentecost experience”? In other words, priests who have had the awesome Pentecost experience of conversion and empowerment, with the blessing of receiving additional charisms imparted by the Holy Spirit (all blessings experienced by some during “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”). The faithful have the right to know.

I would appreciate the opportunity to see such a survey, especially if it is categorized by age and all 20 or so rites of the Catholic Church (not just the “Latin” Roman Rite). How many Catholic priests are truly open to the extraordinary gifts (including prophecy, healing, tongues, discernment of spirits, etc.), and have taken action to encourage such gifts of the Spirit, and the charismatic renewal as a whole? Maybe more than we know!

If there have been no surveys, maybe the bishops (or a Catholic magazine) would be interested in asking these questions, as one of their surveys. What could be more important, as a spiritual guide, for Roman Catholicism of the future?

A survey may give a peek at what may be the sense of the faithful (sensus fidelium), through which the Holy Spirit guides the Church** as a whole** (i.e., both clergy and laity). Amen?

Peace,
Richard

Go to www.presentationministries.org At one time, its founder now deceased was forming a special “charismatic” order of priests.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friends

This thread is a stayer. It’s been active near 5 mths now. I have rapidly increased my devotion for the Holy Spirit recently. I have prayed for the charisms but still speak normally- no tongues yet. I’m not mocking anyone. Just my strange sense of humour creeping through. I call Him the infinite and eternal Living Spirit of Holy Love as the full version now. I am working hard on my relationship with Him and getting to know Him much better. Perhaps this thread has helped me???

May God bless you all and keep you:thumbsup:
John

 

[grannymh]

I have prayed for the charisms but still speak normally- no tongues yet. I’m not mocking anyone. Just my strange sense of humour creeping through. I call Him the infinite and eternal Living Spirit of Holy Love as the full version now. I

I assume you are referring to the gift of praying in tongues…

The following is from both observation and experience. Since I never underestimate the Holy Spirit…

When your strange sense of humour kicks in (I have one too), Call on the infintie and eternal Living Spirit of Holy Love and say His name softly to yourself. Let other names for Him flow from within you. It doesn’t matter if the names are mixed up. Simply smile (giggle if you will) and let the Holy Spirit guide your imagination and your tongue.

The gift of praying in tongues can be received at any time. It may be that you have already received the gift and simply need to yield to it. The reason I suggested to pray out loud to the Holy Spirit (above) is that often it is a good idea to mix English with prayer tongues. It helps us to get used to those funny sounds coming out of our mouth. I like to do both when I am with a Charismatic Prayer group, especially when not all the members choose to pray in prayer tongues. Also, I like the sound of the English words.

The following are some general instructions for yielding to the gift of prayer tongues.
Use whatever parts can help you.

General instructions for those who would like to pray in prayer tongues and understand the difference between the two “gifts” regarding speech go something like this. Continue in one’s current prayer life, follow the way of the Lord, and petition the Holy Spirit for the gift of praying in prayer tongues. Some people like to be prayed over for the gift. Sometimes the gift is received, sometimes it is not.

From my experience, instructions about prayer tongues needs to include the above general instructions plus what to expect. First, there is a two-fold aspect to the gift. The Holy Spirit gives the gift and we have to yield to it. Yielding is somewhat different from receiving. When we yield, we are giving our tongue, our voice box and everything else connected with speech to the Holy Spirit. This may be hard for control freaks. It may take practice before we can actually quiet ourselves and yield.

Next, it is important to know a little bit about how prayer tongues sound when they actually come out of one’s mouth. This can be scary. If one is worried about someone over hearing, pray in the shower. Often, the prayer tongues begin with a one syllable sound which is repeated over and over. One of my friends described hers as a clicking sound. Sometimes this sound is more like a feeling. Remember the Holy Spirit is in charge so go with it. Prayer tongues might sound like a phrase in some other language. Mine had a cadence to it. Remember, you are turning over your speech muscles to the Holy Spirit. Relax. Let the shower run.

Once, one gets over the initial shock of strange sounds, one should yield to the Holy Spirit as often as possible. Remember even though the Holy Spirit is using your voice box, you are definitely in control. You will be o.k. in crowded elevators. Another option is to pray with prayer tongues silently. When I do that with my mouth shut, there are times that it feels like my tongue is moving. It’s like the Holy Spirit is praying quietly.

One more thing. At first one may only feel the initial sounds for a few minutes. Thank the Holy Spirit. Later, return to praying. Personally, mine felt like it was bubbling up from deep within, so much so, that I walked outside. I did test to see if I could stop it. It did stop. I let it flow again, but not very loud…

Another way to yield to the Holy Spirit takes place when one is with a group who are praying in prayer tongues. Please note: It is perfectly acceptable to imitate the sounds of the person next to you. Don’t worry about not imitating exactly. Simply offer your tongue and voice box to the Holy Spirit, focus on God, and imitate in any way you can. Often, this will help one get over any possible embarrassment. The next morning, when one is in the shower, try repeating the sounds you were imitating. Only let the mouth relax because the sounds may change. One is being introduced to one’s own personal prayer tongues.

The key to everything about praying in prayer tongues is our humility in the presence of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, those initial awkward sounds will develop into a more flowing language. Sometimes not. Sometimes, one finds that alternating English or Spanish with a prayer tongue is a better individual way of praying. I wish my prayer tongue would develop into singing on key. So far, no luck. I will soon be an expert in humility.

How does one know personally if one is really praying in a prayer tongue? I have no clue as to how to answer that question. However, if one’s intention is to yield to the Holy Spirit with a humble desire to pray with one’s total being, that would be a good sign of real prayer tongues. Sometimes, one simply needs to trust that the gift is present. One needs to get past ideas of pride and showmanship and respond to the Holy Spirit’s love for us in whatever sounds come forth, in English or in prayer tongues.

The following book is an excellent resource. It has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimature.

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church – ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[grannymh]

My dear friends

This thread is a stayer. It’s been active near 5 mths now. I have rapidly increased my devotion for the Holy Spirit recently. I have prayed for the charisms but still speak normally- no tongues yet. I’m not mocking anyone. Just my strange sense of humour creeping through. I call Him the infinite and eternal Living Spirit of Holy Love as the full version now. I am working hard on my relationship with Him and getting to know Him much better. Perhaps this thread has helped me???

May God bless you all and keep you:thumbsup:
John

Dear John,

I am still listening to your voice above and these are the thoughts which should be a P.S. to my Post 207.

As you are working on your relationship with the Holy Spirit, you already have the gift of praising Him in English. Ask the Holy Spirit to perfect your praise and your love with the gift of praying in tongues. As you wait for His answer, direct your whole being, including your voice box and tongue to praising the Holy Spirit as perfect as possible. Tell Him you want your gift of love to be wrapped in the most beautiful and personal box ever – your own voice box.

What I am saying is similar to the beginning of post 207, only I am adding your intention as part of the means. Speak to the Holy Spirit in English and let the words linger into other sounds. Do not hurry your English sounds but let the Holy Spirit take over.

Even if nothing happens out loud immediately, it already happened in your mind and heart. Be patient with yourself; but be impatient in giving your love to God.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

 

[DebChris]

Aloha DebChris:

I hope that the following will offer “spiritual food” for thought:

In your Post (#201) you asked: “And who are the men most being called at this moment to the priesthood, but those who have experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?”

I have no way of knowing if what you say is correct, but I hope you are right! Maybe there are more priests than we know, who have experienced “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”(as defined in this Thread).

Can anyone lead me to a survey that shows the percentage of Catholic priests (both elders and “youngers”) who have had a “Pentecost experience”? In other words, priests who have had the awesome Pentecost experience of conversion and empowerment, with the blessing of receiving additional charisms imparted by the Holy Spirit (all blessings experienced by some during “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”). The faithful have the right to know.

I would appreciate the opportunity to see such a survey, especially if it is categorized by age and all 20 or so rites of the Catholic Church (not just the “Latin” Roman Rite). How many Catholic priests are truly open to the extraordinary gifts (including prophecy, healing, tongues, discernment of spirits, etc.), and have taken action to encourage such gifts of the Spirit, and the charismatic renewal as a whole? Maybe more than we know!

If there have been no surveys, maybe the bishops (or a Catholic magazine) would be interested in asking these questions, as one of their surveys. What could be more important, as a spiritual guide, for Roman Catholicism of the future?

A survey may give a peek at what may be the sense of the faithful (sensus fidelium), through which the Holy Spirit guides the Church** as a whole** (i.e., both clergy and laity). Amen?

Peace,
Richard

Have you been able to attend a FIRE rally? Go if you ever get a chance.
FIRE stands for Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentance, and Evangelization.
It is amazing to discover that a priest you may not have known to be charismatic in fact is. They are all there to provide for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

My dear friends

This thread is a stayer. It’s been active near 5 mths now. I have rapidly increased my devotion for the Holy Spirit recently. I have prayed for the charisms but still speak normally- no tongues yet. I’m not mocking anyone. Just my strange sense of humour creeping through. I call Him the infinite and eternal Living Spirit of Holy Love as the full version now. I am working hard on my relationship with Him and getting to know Him much better. Perhaps this thread has helped me???

May God bless you all and keep you:thumbsup:
John

Ditto to all that grannymh said.
One way that you could yield your tongue is to use a single syllable and keep repeating it. A “la, la, la” if you would. I’m playing on your sense of humor. God has His own sense of humor. Caution: you are releasing the tongue so don’t hold on to the “la, la, la” or “do, re, mi.” You will know whether if it is you saying “fa, la, la” or if the Lord has changed the syllables and changed them into words.
As we have been stating throughout this thread, your increased devotion to the Holy Spirit that is more important than any charisms you may or may not manifest.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Dear John,

I am still listening to your voice above and these are the thoughts which should be a P.S. to my Post 207.

As you are working on your relationship with the Holy Spirit, you already have the gift of praising Him in English. Ask the Holy Spirit to perfect your praise and your love with the gift of praying in tongues. As you wait for His answer, direct your whole being, including your voice box and tongue to praising the Holy Spirit as perfect as possible. Tell Him you want your gift of love to be wrapped in the most beautiful and personal box ever – your own voice box.

What I am saying is similar to the beginning of post 207, only I am adding your intention as part of the means. Speak to the Holy Spirit in English and let the words linger into other sounds. Do not hurry your English sounds but let the Holy Spirit take over.

Even if nothing happens out loud immediately, it already happened in your mind and heart. Be patient with yourself; but be impatient in giving your love to God.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

My dear friend

Thank you for your very good posts. I’m wondering if I can trust the Living Spirit of Holy Love to stop if I start speaking in tongues. Perhaps once He starts He may even pray in my sleep and wake me up. My strange sense of humour again. I appreciate your efforts to provide so much good info.

Thank you

May God bless you and keep you:thumbsup:
John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Have you been able to attend a FIRE rally? Go if you ever get a chance.
FIRE stands for Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentance, and Evangelization.
It is amazing to discover that a priest you may not have known to be charismatic in fact is. They are all there to provide for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Ditto to all that grannymh said.
One way that you could yield your tongue is to use a single syllable and keep repeating it. A “la, la, la” if you would. I’m playing on your sense of humor. God has His own sense of humor. Caution: you are releasing the tongue so don’t hold on to the “la, la, la” or “do, re, mi.” You will know whether if it is you saying “fa, la, la” or if the Lord has changed the syllables and changed them into words.
As we have been stating throughout this thread, your increased devotion to the Holy Spirit that is more important than any charisms you may or may not manifest.

My dear friend

Thanks for the tips and advice.

May God bless you and keep you
John

 

[DebChris]

My dear friend

Thank you for your very good posts. I’m wondering if I can trust the Living Spirit of Holy Love to stop if I start speaking in tongues. Perhaps once He starts He may even pray in my sleep and wake me up. My strange sense of humour again. I appreciate your efforts to provide so much good info.

Thank you

May God bless you and keep you:thumbsup:
John

You may very well pray in your sleep. I can’t remember waking, praying in tongues, but I have waken in the middle of the night praising God in English. Don’t be afraid of those 2am wake ups.
It is while I am walking that I may begin praying in the Spirit (translation: praying in my prayer language). Yes, I have always been able to stop.
Walk and pray–walk and pray-- here comes somebody–Hi, how are you doing—walk–walk–walk and pray.

 

[grannymh]

My dear friend

Thank you for your very good posts. I’m wondering if I can trust the Living Spirit of Holy Love to stop if I start speaking in tongues. Perhaps once He starts He may even pray in my sleep and wake me up. My strange sense of humour again. I appreciate your efforts to provide so much good info.

Thank you

May God bless you and keep you:thumbsup:
John

This is a nitpicking granny. There are two gifts of the Holy Spirit regarding the tongue. One “speaking in tongues” belongs to the classical list of St. Paul and is akin to a special ministry within the Church. The other, the good, old-fashioned, common gift of praying in tongues is what you, DebChris, and I are talking about.

Now, if you have been imbibing on spirits other than holy, you may have a wee bit of trouble with runaway chatter. And the Holy Spirit may pray that you fall asleep soon because you are ruining His good name. (Did I say I also have a strange sense of humor?)

There is a weird contradiction with the gift of praying in tongues. We are to give up control to the Holy Spirit and yet, we always remain in control. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, it is our desire for Him to take over and perfect our poor prayers. Our desire ends when we choose to stop praying in tongues. In a sense, both the Holy Spirit and enough hooch can cause sounds which sometimes sound like chatter. But the Holy Spirit’s sounds are prayers which coincide with our desire to pray and end when we turn our attention elsewhere. Can’t say the same for hooch.

There will probably be times when you wish you could keep praying in tongues but you realize you have to stop. For example, I like to pray in tongues when I am driving. Helps me to keep my sense of humor. Nonetheless, I have perfect confidence that when I pull up to order fast food, I will be speaking in English.

I have heard your concern expressed by a priest. It is a valid one. But don’t let that stop you. My standard advice is to pray in the shower until comfortable with what is happening. Trust both the Holy Spirit and yourself.

Keep asking questions. It means you are getting ready to yield.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[DebChris]

This is a nitpicking granny. There are two gifts of the Holy Spirit regarding the tongue. One “speaking in tongues” belongs to the classical list of St. Paul and is akin to a special ministry within the Church. The other, the good, old-fashioned, common gift of praying in tongues is what you and I are talking about.

Now, if you have been imbibing on spirits other than holy, you may have a wee bit of trouble with runaway chatter. And the Holy Spirit may pray that you fall asleep soon because you are ruining His good name. (Did I say I also have a strange sense of humor?)

There is a weird contradiction with the gift of praying in tongues. We are to give up control to the Holy Spirit and yet, we always remain in control. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, it is our desire for Him to take over and perfect our poor prayers. Our desire ends when we choose to stop praying in tongues. In a sense, both the Holy Spirit and enough hooch can cause sounds which sometimes sound like chatter. But the Holy Spirit’s sounds are prayers which coincide with our desire to pray and end when we turn our attention elsewhere. Can’t say the same for hooch.

There will probably be times when you wish you could keep praying in tongues but you realize you have to stop. For example, I like to pray in tongues when I am driving. Helps me to keep my sense of humor. Nonetheless, I have perfect confidence that when I pull up to order fast food, I will be speaking in English.

I have heard your concern expressed by a priest. It is a valid one. But don’t let that stop you. My standard advice is to pray in the shower until comfortable with what is happening. Trust both the Holy Spirit and yourself.

Keep asking questions. It means you are getting ready to yield.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

The audience on the Day of Pentecost did think that the Apostles did have a bit much to imbibe.
What they imbibed was the Holy Spirit.
The shower can become a holy cleansing, not only of the physical dirt from our bodies, but also of all that is not of God.
There is nothing hidden from God. Sing in the shower without fear.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

You may very well pray in your sleep. I can’t remember waking, praying in tongues, but I have waken in the middle of the night praising God in English. Don’t be afraid of those 2am wake ups.
It is while I am walking that I may begin praying in the Spirit (translation: praying in my prayer language). Yes, I have always been able to stop.
Walk and pray–walk and pray-- here comes somebody–Hi, how are you doing—walk–walk–walk and pray.

My dear friend

Thanks for that:thumbsup:

May God bless you and keep you
John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

This is a nitpicking granny. There are two gifts of the Holy Spirit regarding the tongue. One “speaking in tongues” belongs to the classical list of St. Paul and is akin to a special ministry within the Church. The other, the good, old-fashioned, common gift of praying in tongues is what you, DebChris, and I are talking about.

Now, if you have been imbibing on spirits other than holy, you may have a wee bit of trouble with runaway chatter. And the Holy Spirit may pray that you fall asleep soon because you are ruining His good name. (Did I say I also have a strange sense of humor?)

There is a weird contradiction with the gift of praying in tongues. We are to give up control to the Holy Spirit and yet, we always remain in control. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, it is our desire for Him to take over and perfect our poor prayers. Our desire ends when we choose to stop praying in tongues. In a sense, both the Holy Spirit and enough hooch can cause sounds which sometimes sound like chatter. But the Holy Spirit’s sounds are prayers which coincide with our desire to pray and end when we turn our attention elsewhere. Can’t say the same for hooch.

There will probably be times when you wish you could keep praying in tongues but you realize you have to stop. For example, I like to pray in tongues when I am driving. Helps me to keep my sense of humor. Nonetheless, I have perfect confidence that when I pull up to order fast food, I will be speaking in English.

I have heard your concern expressed by a priest. It is a valid one. But don’t let that stop you. My standard advice is to pray in the shower until comfortable with what is happening. Trust both the Holy Spirit and yourself.

Keep asking questions. It means you are getting ready to yield.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

My dear friend

Thanks for your pointers. Appreciated:thumbsup:

May God bless you and keep you
Jiohn