Baptism in the Spirit and Contemplation

  • Thread starter Thread starter InLight247
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tim wrote:
Click to expand...
As for dieing to self, there is not much of me left after nearly dieing of cancer four years ago. If anything, I’m trying to find myself again so I can at least operate in the world I no longer feel apart of. I am just bluffing my way through this world, with barely any interest in it any more at this time. I am consumed with the Lord, because when I get involved in the world, I sin. So I don’t what to have much to do with it anymore. This place is like a prison to me. Tim
Click to expand...
Looks like you’re in good company, Tim:

Stanzas of the soul that suffers with longing to see God.

I live, but not in myself,
and I have such hope
that I die because I do not die.
  1. I no longer live within myself
    and I cannot live without God,
    for having neither him nor myself
    what will life be?
    It will be a thousand deaths,
    longing for my true life
    and dying because I do not die.
  2. This life that I live
    is no life at all,
    and so I die continually
    until I live with you;
    hear me, my God:
    I do not desire this life,
    I am dying because I do not die.
  3. When I am away from you
    what life can I have
    except to endure
    the bitterest death known?
    I pity myself,
    for I go on and on living,
    dying because I do not die.
  4. A fish that leaves the water
    has this relief:
    the dying it endures
    ends at last in death.
    What death can equal my pitiable life?
    For the longer I live, the more drawn out is my dying.
  5. When I try to find relief
    seeing you in the Sacrament,
    I find this greater sorrow:
    I cannot enjoy you wholly.
    All things are affliction
    since I do not see you as I desire,
    and I die because I do not die.
  6. And if I rejoice, Lord,
    in the hope of seeing you,
    yet seeing I can lose you
    doubles my sorrow.
    Living in such fear
    and hoping as I hope,
    I die because I do not die.
  7. Lift me from this death,
    my God, and give me life;
    do not hold me bound
    with these bonds so strong;
    see how I long to see you;
    my wretchedness is so complete
    that I die because I do not die.
  8. I will cry out for death
    and mourn my living
    while I am held here
    for my sins.
    O my God, when will it be
    that I can truly say:
    now I live because I do not die?
 
Originally by Gabrielis
I’m not sure exactly what you are saying here, but it sounds as though you may be suggesting that we must somehow become 100% spirit at the expense of our bodies.
Click to expand...
Gabrielis, sometimes I am not exactly sure what I was saying either. 😃
But what you said in the above quote has never occurred to me.
I was reading St. John, those two questions just popped up in my mind.
When I thought about how pure God is, how high the demand of self mortification, self denial and self purification is, some fear crept in and I started to question, “Hey, is this reasonable?”

This fear is actually related to my second question that has already been settled by Dave’s reminder of reading Fr. Dubay’s teaching on what attachment is NOT. Father clearly said all the Saints have profound love toward their friends. And it is natural for us to be attracted to beautiful object or person. These are not considered as unhealthy attachment.

In other words, when I raised my two questions, my first question was compelled by my second. I was questioning **if **this detachment St. John was talking about includes the heroic indifference to our family, that was just too much and not reasonable. That leads to my first question – how, we created as flesh with emotions, are expected to become indifferent and care less toward our loved ones? I may call this question my momentary mental block or lack of surrender and obedience on my part. Because if God so demand, in order to be 100% obedient, aren’t we supposed to comply? Like Abraham sacrifices Isaac.
 
Originally by Joysong
Nothing God made for our use is inherently evil, but our excessive desires for the wrong use of created goods is what we need to mortify.
Click to expand...
You hit the bottom line.
 
Originally by RobNY
… with an added bonus that I have a desire to do it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your sharing, Rob.

Glad to hear what you said above.
Let’s keep on walking, keep on climbing.
God bless!
 
TOP said:
It took me two years and a Preist as a SD to finally tell me about an experience that was what I considered a “conversion experience”. He refered to it as an “illumination of conscience” and it was instantly followed by a “consolation” as soon as I called out to God. If their is a Baptism by fire, then that was it. The illumination was so spiritually painful, I could not take it anymore. It was like God had left me in my sins, I could barely remember Him in the chaos. My soul reacted when it called out to Him and He came so quickly and with such a power of love, it was like being purged instantly and filled with love. Within seconds I had visions, understanding of the nature of love, my vocation, answers to things that had been on my mind, but also from the illumination I learned the nature of sin and how it works like a spreading disease, a blinding wet blanket that covers the earth. Mind you, I was not religous when this happened, I just believed in God. As a result I am now practicing and still trying to learn about this. Within a minutes time, I went through an illumination, purgative and union like a whirlwind. I can’t imagine anything that could bring me closer to God.
Click to expand...
Tim, you had an awesome encounter with the living Jesus.
Where does contemplation fit in here…
Click to expand...
This is the similar question as I started this thread.
My thought is that the experience of baptism in the Spirit gives one a sweet divine taste, brings one to the threshold of contemplation. Union with God, at different degrees, is a constant strive and effort, nothing is once and for all. Even one has reached at certain mansion, one could fall back. Union with God is a lifetime goal and journey.
 
Gabrielis said:
Looks like you’re in good company, Tim:

Stanzas of the soul that suffers with longing to see God.

I live, but not in myself,
and I have such hope
that I die because I do not die.
  1. I no longer live within myself
    and I cannot live without God,
    for having neither him nor myself
    what will life be?
    It will be a thousand deaths,
    longing for my true life
    and dying because I do not die.
  2. This life that I live
    is no life at all,
    and so I die continually
    until I live with you;
    hear me, my God:
    I do not desire this life,
    I am dying because I do not die.
  3. When I am away from you
    what life can I have
    except to endure
    the bitterest death known?
    I pity myself,
    for I go on and on living,
    dying because I do not die.
  4. A fish that leaves the water
    has this relief:
    the dying it endures
    ends at last in death.
    What death can equal my pitiable life?
    For the longer I live, the more drawn out is my dying.
  5. When I try to find relief
    seeing you in the Sacrament,
    I find this greater sorrow:
    I cannot enjoy you wholly.
    All things are affliction
    since I do not see you as I desire,
    and I die because I do not die.
  6. And if I rejoice, Lord,
    in the hope of seeing you,
    yet seeing I can lose you
    doubles my sorrow.
    Living in such fear
    and hoping as I hope,
    I die because I do not die.
  7. Lift me from this death,
    my God, and give me life;
    do not hold me bound
    with these bonds so strong;
    see how I long to see you;
    my wretchedness is so complete
    that I die because I do not die.
  8. I will cry out for death
    and mourn my living
    while I am held here
    for my sins.
    O my God, when will it be
    that I can truly say:
    now I live because I do not die?
Code:
Click to expand...
I’ve never seen this before. Thanks, Tim
 
InLight247 said:
Tim, you had an awesome encounter with the living Jesus.

This is the similar question as I started this thread.
My thought is that the experience of baptism in the Spirit gives one a sweet divine taste, brings one to the threshold of contemplation. Union with God, at different degrees, is a constant strive and effort, nothing is once and for all. Even one has reached at certain mansion, one could fall back. Union with God is a lifetime goal and journey.
Click to expand...
What’s funny is when I came back to the Church, I was like “I’m one of you now!!”. Picture a guy with full sleave tattoos, ex-military, a little rough in a small country parish full of lifelong Catholics. I thought all of them would understand what happened to me being practicing Catholics, so I was quite open about it. I must have come off as a wacko, but I was just sharing. Come to find out it is a great mystery to most how this can happen and the faithful don’t often need this kind of intervention. I was green as can be, not knowing how it was possible for someone like me to have this happen to them, until I learned about Jesus. It took me months to learn that the God of love I felt was Jesus and how He made it possible with the passion to have access to the Father. Luckily my parish Priest had an experience with Mary and St. Ann Seton at the Shrine in Emmitsburg , Md which caused him to become a Priest. He was a UPS driver. So he has been working with me the past 2 years. Strange ways the Lord use’s. I would like to have that feeling of peace again I had in the days following this experience. It was like an ecstasy. But there are reasons I’m sure of His withdrawal. I don’t know if I can have it again by attempting to gain it somehow, maybe by contemplation or study, so I haven’t tried that very hard yet. It was a gift unearned. How can that be possible again by my own efforts? Tim
 
InLight247 said:
Gabrielis, sometimes I am not exactly sure what I was saying either. 😃
But what you said in the above quote has never occurred to me.
I was reading St. John, those two questions just popped up in my mind.
When I thought about how pure God is, how high the demand of self mortification, self denial and self purification is, some fear crept in and I started to question, “Hey, is this reasonable?”

This fear is actually related to my second question that has already been settled by Dave’s reminder of reading Fr. Dubay’s teaching on what attachment is NOT. Father clearly said all the Saints have profound love toward their friends. And it is natural for us to be attracted to beautiful object or person. These are not considered as unhealthy attachment.

In other words, when I raised my two questions, my first question was compelled by my second. I was questioning **if **this detachment St. John was talking about includes the heroic indifference to our family, that was just too much and not reasonable. That leads to my first question – how, we created as flesh with emotions, are expected to become indifferent and care less toward our loved ones? I may call this question my momentary mental block or lack of surrender and obedience on my part. Because if God so demand, in order to be 100% obedient, aren’t we supposed to comply? Like Abraham sacrifices Isaac.
Click to expand...
One thing I learned when I was sick with cancer. You will one day have to leave everything in God’s hands. Friends, family, everyone you care for. It takes a great amount of trust in God to let go of everything and trust He will take care of them. I wasn’t religous at the time, but I knew this for sure. This part of me died in the hospital the day I told my wife to move on with her life if I didn’t make it. I wasn’t heroic, I was scared out of my wits, but when I let go it was then I started to be healed I think. I think that was the lesson I had to learn. I don’t think you care less for your loved ones, but trust God more. That is what it means to love God more then family to inherit the Kingdom, to let go off them in trust and reach out for the Lord’s hand in faith. Tim
 
40.png
TOP:
… but when I let go it was then I started to be healed I think
Click to expand...
I don’t know if you realize how powerful your little statement was, but this is a GIANT lesson that we could almost begin a new thread on.
One thing I learned when I was sick with cancer. You will one day have to leave everything in God’s hands. Friends, family, everyone you care for.
Click to expand...
Tim, you learned it from the vantage point of sickness. I learned it from the experience of death a couple months ago. What is a poignant and harsh awakening is to realize that every single thing he spent his entire lifetime laboring for and accumulating, instantly became the possessions of those who did not lift a finger of labor to acquire it. Not that I begrude the heirs, but it has caused me to.refocus. Therefore, I was unusually eager to give a much larger than usual donation of money this Christmas to the poor, rather than see an already rich offspring inherit more of the same abundance.

I just figured out where the bumper sticker saying came from. 😃

“I’m spending my kids inheritance!”
 
TOP said:
It takes a great amount of trust in God to let go of everything and trust He will take care of them. … but when I let go it was then I started to be healed I think…Tim
Click to expand...
Tim, thanks. Your testimony is powerful. What you said is very true.
Usually miracle starts when we let go and let God. That’s why the prayer of relinquishment is so important. I have read various testimonies in this nature during the past.
 
You guys are giving me words to put to experience’s, helping me to work out these mysteries and be able to articulate my thoughts to my confessor. I’m enjoying this conversation you all are having, please continue, Tim
 
I’m really surprised to hear that terminology, In Light … Prayer of Relinquishment. I was going to use it, but I figured nobody else ever heard of it. By any chance did you read Catherine Marshall’s book “Beyond Ourselves?” It’s astounding how our thoughts intertwine.

Carole
 
Joysong said:
I don’t know if you realize how powerful your little statement was, but this is a GIANT lesson that we could almost begin a new thread on.

Tim, you learned it from the vantage point of sickness. I learned it from the experience of death a couple months ago. What is a poignant and harsh awakening is to realize that every single thing he spent his entire lifetime laboring for and accumulating, instantly became the possessions of those who did not lift a finger of labor to acquire it. Not that I begrude the heirs, but it has caused me to.refocus. Therefore, I was unusually eager to give a much larger than usual donation of money this Christmas to the poor, rather than see an already rich offspring inherit more of the same abundance.

I just figured out where the bumper sticker saying came from. 😃

“I’m spending my kids inheritance!”
Click to expand...
I’m sorry for your loss and that you had to witness that with the heirs. Through a accidental death, I had to put everything I own in my wifes name to protect my family. I was sued because of a car accident, but insurance covered everything saving my assests for my wife. Because of my cancer history, I’ll just keep it that way. I see how even in trials, I am being emptied. I can see a preparation being made for my family to continue without me. I just wait for the word to come. It may be along wait still though. Tim
 
Tim,

Thanks for your comforting words.
I hope your wife has a will! What would you do if she happens to predecease you? I understand by experience that “we know not the hour.” You need also to protect yourself so that the assets you already possess will pass back to you. I trust you have already considered all of this.
 
Is baptism in the Holy Spirit a nowadays’ form of union with God, a speedy way to reach certain stage of contemplation?
The Saints described the contemplation experience as full of God’s deep love and peace. The union is beautiful and thrilling.
In the testimonies I have read about baptism in the Holy Spirit, people describedthe unutterable love from God, deep spiritual cleansing, thrilling joy, and profound peace. Their lives are totally changed afterwards.

The question is answered by your own words and I can only say that I did not even read any of the information of others because I know that they know the truth and will have writen it all. And God bless you all.

For me I wanted the Holy Spirit when I was about 12 or 13 when firstly God showed me that He is LOVE. I cryed out that I wanted that love and it wasn’t until around 12 years latter (some 30 years ago) that He gave me His everlasting, eternal, unexaustable, unmeasurable, uncomparable LOVE. I found also that as the saints of old ( and we are all saints in a way) God gives you a desire to want for that love, a desire that never leaves the one He chooses to give it to.

When I received the Gift of the Holy Spirit and it came down on me in so much force and yet so soft loving peaceful fragrent of all my spirit could desire that I fell to my knees and the tears were as a river around me for when I lifted my eyes to focus on the cross of Jesus I saw not the nails but my sins Jesus had given His Godhead up for. And I asked Jesus why He gave me that love for I am the least.
Jesus own words so sweat and at that time ununderstandable by me were “I gave you My Love for I could find no other more unworthy than you, had I, then I then I would have given it to them” I did not understamd His words but it did not matter I could only say that You will show me what You mean in time and time will show me itself.
Every day I wish to enhance that relationship with the Holy Spirit by my offering myself to Jesus and inviting the Holy Spirit to speak through me for I as a “littleone” am unable to understand the right words that the spirit of God will touch the spirit in the people of the world to cause change.
In the job Jesus has given me I have hours of walking around the Hospital by my self and it is in this time I contemplate the love of God for His children.
Contemplate not the flesh for the flesh will diminish rather contemplate the “truth” for truth comes fromGod.
Contemplate on what would happen if the stones did give glory what would be happening? And yet! it was not for the stones but for mankind who Jesus gave all up, to die on the cross. And again I contemplate the glorious reserection of Jesus to eternal life that opened the door for me to have a life with the Father in heaven for ever. It is al worth it. It is all worth it.

God bless
 
DBT said:
The active nights pertain in large part to the things “we” do, under God’s grace, toward the purification effort. This means mortification, self-denial and asceticism in our thoughts, words and actions. The very act of denying/emptying self is “dark” or a “night” because it goes so against our natural inclinations. Simply put, it is hard to do and requires strong and persistant acts of virtue to break away from self to ultimately be born into the “new man.” This night is what “The Ascent” primarily addresses.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave, for explaining that the dark night of sense is to do with the purification, mortification and self-denial process. It helps to see such straightforward summary.

I remember one time after my confession, a sorrow lingered in my heart and would not leave.
I kept on weeping in my soul. I begged God to lift it up and it was finally gone after several days. I was puzzled because the sin I confessed was really minor. Later I realized it was the work of the Holy Spirit. He wanted to make an impression on me so I would remember what I confessed, and be resolved to overcome it. And I did. I have never confessed the same sin again since.

Thinking back, I realize I have been through many purification and self-denial process but I have never linked them with dark night.
 
Joysong said:
Tim,

Thanks for your comforting words.
I hope your wife has a will! What would you do if she happens to predecease you? I understand by experience that “we know not the hour.” You need also to protect yourself so that the assets you already possess will pass back to you. I trust you have already considered all of this.
Click to expand...
Joysong, I have never considered this. I’m just over four years out from stage 3 cancer with a very high prob of reoccurence. I figured this is the hour of mercy for me and that is why everything happened so quickly in my case. I have ptsd and can’t plan my own future as of yet. It is something I just can’t do yet. I used to plan 10 years in advance, but sickness, deaths, accidents combined has crushed that ability so I take it one day at a time. I’m just now starting to think I may be cured and the spots on my scans are just scars as suspected at this time. I’ll get to that point one day, but never fully. But things aren’t important to me anymore. Out of hope I should start considering these things. Thanks, Tim
 
Joysong said:
I’m really surprised to hear that terminology, In Light … Prayer of Relinquishment. I was going to use it, but I figured nobody else ever heard of it. By any chance did you read Catherine Marshall’s book “Beyond Ourselves?” It’s astounding how our thoughts intertwine.

Carole
Click to expand...
I have not read “Beyond Ourselves”. I don’t know where I first heard “Prayer of Relinquishment”, but I remember a testimony I read probably in the early 90’s from Guideposts. A father was so worried about his child with high fever and being hospitalized. The child was in critical condition. The father prayed in the hospital chapel. Finally he told God he gave up, and asked God to totally take it over. When he went back to the ward, he was informed his child’s fever was gone a few minutes ago. That testimony created a lasting impression on me. I understand the importance of relinquishment since then.

But even with understanding, Often times I grab my petition tight in my hands. 😊
 
InLight247 said:
I remember one time after my confession, a sorrow lingered in my heart and would not leave. I kept on weeping in my soul. I begged God to lift it up and it was finally gone after several days. I was puzzled because the sin I confessed was really minor. Later I realized it was the work of the Holy Spirit. He wanted to make an impression on me so I would remember what I confessed, and be resolved to overcome it. And I did. I have never confessed the same sin again since.

And . . .

Thinking back, I realize I have been through many purification and self-denial process but I have never linked them with dark night.
Click to expand...
Your quote - along with what Joysong said earlier about purity of heart - reminded me of something I read recently regarding passive purifications . . . the often painful self knowledge that is a primary fruit of contemplation:
Open Mind:
We blissfully imagine that we do good to our families, friends, and business or professional associates for the best of reasons, but when this dynamism (passive purification) begins to operate in us, our so-called good intentions look like a pile of dirty dishrags. We perceive that we are not as generous as we had believed. This happens because the divine light is shining brighter in our hearts. Divine love, by its very nature, accuses us of our innate selfishness.
Click to expand...
From this simple quote we can gain some understanding why the Saints described purification (whether active or passive) in such dramatic terms . . . for self-knowledge of previously hidden faults - especially when done under the pretext of doing good - can be a very painful thing to bear.

The Saints teach “lights” like this can come fairly frequently once contemplation begins and sometimes I wonder if there truly is such a thing as purity of intention . . . or will notions of “self” always be intermingled in all that we do. Or maybe purity of heart is a relative thing. We are “pure” in the context of our level of understanding . . . in that present moment.

More things to ponder . . . 🙂
Dave
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top