Baptism in the Spirit and Contemplation

[InLight247]

From another thread started by Barbara Therese, she quoted the reflection from Word Among Us:

The truth is, the Holy Spirit promises to lead us moment by moment, but he does not promise to lead us in the same way all the time. Often we miss the new thing God is doing today because we are so impressed with what he did yesterday.

That is so well said. And it relates to a question I have been dwelling on.
I think it is proper to start a new thread about my question, and I hope to hear from people who have either both or one of the experiences.

Here is the question:

Is baptism in the Holy Spirit a nowadays’ form of union with God, a speedy way to reach certain stage of contemplation?

The Saints described the contemplation experience as full of God’s deep love and peace.
The union is beautiful and thrilling.

In the testimonies I have read about baptism in the Holy Spirit, people described
the unutterable love from God, deep spiritual cleansing, thrilling joy, and profound peace.
Their lives are totally changed afterwards.

The answer to my question seems to be a “yes”. This “yes” does not mean “equality” but “similarity”. It appears to me that people are deeply touched in both experiences. They experienced God.

I am not just talking about a charismatic prayer meeting. I am referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit usually taking place in a retreat after a series of seminars and preparations.

The Holy Spirit can lead different people to union in different format at different time.

Please share your experience and opinion.

 

[puzzleannie]

Is baptism in the Holy Spirit a nowadays’ form of union with God, a speedy way to reach certain stage of contemplation?

.

I have been to several charismatic conferences and retreats where this was offered, and never did I hear it presented or explained in these terms. I have also heard several of the prominent orthodox priests in this movement explain it including Fr. Montague & Fr. DeGrandis, and they have never explained it in this way.

there is no shortcut to contemplation, no way to force union with God, no speedy way to reach any stage of contemplation. Union is initiated by God on his timetable, after he has prepared the soul, it is not initiated by the soul itself. Infused contemplation is a gift, not a right.

 

[InLight247]

I have been to several charismatic conferences and retreats where this was offered, and never did I hear it presented or explained in these terms. I have also heard several of the prominent orthodox priests in this movement explain it including Fr. Montague & Fr. DeGrandis, and they have never explained it in this way.

there is no shortcut to contemplation, no way to force union with God, no speedy way to reach any stage of contemplation. Union is initiated by God on his timetable, after he has prepared the soul, it is not initiated by the soul itself. Infused contemplation is a gift, not a right.

I fully understand contemplation is a gift not a right. There is no question there.

The experience of baptism in the Holy Spirit is also initiated by God. Man cannot demand it. The Holy Spirit descends on people and bestow an intense experience, the person just need to be open and receive the gift. It seems to be similar to the apostles’ Pentecost experience.

 

[InLight247]

I find some interesting paragraph from the book of Intimacy with God by Fr. Keating.

Keating interestingly relate the charismatic renewal experience to the beginning of contemplative prayer.

”the assurance of the total forgiveness of one’s sins; a new awareness of Jesus as a real Person instead of an abstract figure in ancient history; a greater love and understanding of the Word of God in Scripture and liturgy; the ardent desire to praise God; an eagerness to bear witness to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. These and similar effects clearly indicate the special action of the Holy Spirit, which in terms of traditional Christian spirituality, may be a sign of mystical grace.” **(Intimacy with God, page 142) **

What he described above is the same I understand about the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Keating said, “The essential sign of conversion, whether it comes instantly through baptism in the Spirit, or more gradually through the practice of virtue, is that it provides a profound intuition into the goal to be pursued by Christian practice. It is a thrust in the fundamental direction that one’s life should take as a follower of Christ. While baptism in the Spirit does not establish an advanced state of spiritual development, it is a manifest call to contemplative prayer.”

For my brothers and sisters offended by CP, please keep in mind that just because Fr. Keating is for CP, it does not mean his words of insight on spirituality has no value. This thread has nothing to do with CP at all. Keep in mind CP topic is banned for the rest of the year.

I am trying to discuss the similarity between the baptism in the Spirit and the beginning stage of contemplation. Keating’s opinion on this topic seems to be insightful.

 

[Joysong]

This is very hard to answer, basically because none of us can know for certain how to discern the origin or depth of the grace a person receives from the Holy Spirit. We can only know by the fruits, I would think.

… a greater love and understanding of the Word of God in Scripture and liturgy;
… the ardent desire to praise God;
… an eagerness to bear witness to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
These and similar effects clearly indicate the special action of the Holy Spirit, which in terms of traditional Christian spirituality, may be a sign of mystical grace

These fruits are evidence of ‘something’ profound having been experienced in the depth of one’s soul. Whether it is an initial conversion experience which radically changes one’s life, or a gift bestowed in the latter development of one’s prayer life, we can praise God and pray that the person who receives this gift, whatever form, will persevere generously in following Christ.

My personal opinion is this, from having experienced both the initial grace of conversion, and much later, a deeper contemplative prayer life, While the conversion experience was powerful, giving me an intense desire for daily mass and Eucharist, prayer, scripture, etc.,I was till a babe in virtue. Much later on, as I continued these devotions, I did receive more frequent touches of God’s gifts.
And, this is only to reaffirm the promise of scripture Jn. 14:21, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep my commandments … and I will love him and MANIFEST myself to him.”

Do you see the transition from the initial gift pointing the way, the intermediary process of keeping the commandments and growing in prayer and virtue, and the later manifestation?
I certainly that believe that God is Omnipotent Love and would not withhold certain touches of Himself to one who truly loves Him this deeply.

The answer to my question seems to be a “yes”. This “yes” does not mean “equality” but “similarity”. It appears to me that people are deeply touched in both experiences. They experienced God.

I agree. It is just a matter of timing, and a matter of growing in the initial gift that was granted, to a more profound union as one matures and remains faithful. The initial gift can be lost otherwise.

 

[RoyJr]

Keating said, “ While baptism in the Spirit does not establish an advanced state of spiritual development, it is a manifest call to contemplative prayer.”

Let’s look at the Sacred Scriptures.
John 20:19-22
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.”

Acts 1:3-5,8
While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father” about which you have heard me speak; for John baptized with water, but *in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." *
"But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Jesus rose from the dead, appeared to his disciples who were in hiding out of fear & he breathed the Holy Spirit on them. 40 days later he told them that the Holy Spirit “the promise of the Father” would come upon them & that THEY WOULD RECEIVE POWER.

On the day of Pentecost, again the disciples were “gathered together in one place”. Was this out of fear again? Was it out of expectation of “the promise of the Father”? Was it out of the need for community & comfort?

If they were still in fear & not in the “peace” of which Jesus breathed on them, then at the moment that they were “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Christ’s words exactly), they were “FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT” & began to make bold proclamations as the Spirit promted them to do so.

Acts 2:1-4
When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them.** And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. **

Interesting that the promise of the Father’s first action among his people was to enable them to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:10, Rom 8:26-27 "In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.")

These things all directly from Sacred Scripture.
Is there a scripture passage relating to “contemplative prayer”?

Would that the disciples having the Holy Spirit “breathed on them” = The INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit, still be in fear until the day of Pentecost & the “baptizm of the Holy Spirit” = the FULL MANIFESTATION of “the promise of the Father”, have not prayed or prayed in contemplation these 10 days not having an understanding of being “baptised in the Holy Spirit” until the 10th day? And on the promised day, being “filled with the Holy Spirit” & no longer cowering in fear, but now filled with “POWER” Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you"

Where is the scripture passage or cathecism or church document, or dogma that tells of receiving “power” when you are in “contemplative prayer”?

Are catholics so ready & eager to enter into a “closeness to God” thorugh “contemplative prayer” which is mentioned in the lives of the saints, & yet not seek the “promise of the Father” in the “baptizm of the Holy Spirit” & this which is DIRECTLY OUT OF THE MOUTH OF JESUS HIMSELF?

FYI: The sacrament of Confirmation IS NOT the same as “baptism with the Holy Spirit”.
It was once, but the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 were set aside by the church to allow the gifts of Isaiah 11 to be administered within the sacrament some centuries ago. Jesus never said his church would be perfect now did he?

So, Keating’s “opinion” does not coincide with Sacred Scripture.

 

[Joysong]

Roy,

I think I hear you saying that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is solely a gift of empowerment? Yet not everyone is called in the same way as the apostles, who were given a specific mission to preach - fearlessly! Prior to the Pentecost experience, Christ did give them gifts to heal and cast out demons, so there were other gifts being exercised.

I have known some who had this experience and received an empowerment in prayer, teaching, ministering, or simply living their vocation to the fullest measure of God’s will as they know it. The test is in the fruit, yes?

Very often in saintly giants like Therese of the Child Jesus, these gifts were completely hidden until the time of their manifestation by God as to the great holiness of their lives. We simply cannot know. However, in speaking of St. Therese, much as she tried to disguise her words in her writings, the reader can discern that she had an infusion of very special gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joysong]

Is there a scripture passage relating to “contemplative prayer”?

Yes, indeed. The very quote from scripture that you mentioned, “Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.”

Contemplative prayer in some instances does indeed take on the groaning of the spirit. Naturally, the writer of the gospel, although having fully understood the experience, did not give it a name in today’s terminology, to which the Doctors of the Church have applied the term ‘contemplation.’ There are forms of this prayer which are not the ecstatic joy some think is always present; but no, it can well come in the form of a deep ‘distress’ as St. Teresa calls it, or a groaning in the Spirit as St. Paul wrote.

Again, without giving it a name, St. Paul indicated that ‘eye has not seen nor ear heard’ what God has prepared for those who love Him. Bingo, contemplation. And we know that this has varying intensities from the initial beginnings to a very advanced ecstacy of rapture, which it seems clear that St. Paul experienced.

 

[InLight247]

This is very hard to answer…
…My personal opinion is this, from having experienced both the initial grace of conversion, and much later, a deeper contemplative prayer life, While the conversion experience was powerful, giving me an intense desire for daily mass and Eucharist, prayer, scripture, etc.,I was till a babe in virtue. Much later on, as I continued these devotions, I did receive more frequent touches of God’s gifts.
And, this is only to reaffirm the promise of scripture Jn. 14:21, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep my commandments … and I will love him and MANIFEST myself to him.”

Do you see the transition from the initial gift pointing the way, the intermediary process of keeping the commandments and growing in prayer and virtue, and the later manifestation?
I certainly that believe that God is Omnipotent Love and would not withhold certain touches of Himself to one who truly loves Him this deeply…
…I agree. It is just a matter of timing, and a matter of growing in the initial gift that was granted, to a more profound union as one matures and remains faithful. The initial gift can be lost otherwise.

Joysong, what you said helps to verbalize my thoughts. They are the answers I am looking for to confirm what I believe.

Yes, this is not an easy question to answer. Like you said no one really knows how God works in a soul and how the soul responds to the grace. Reading what you said, I can identify with it and totally agree.

Personally I did not have any dramatic “conversion experience”. I am sort of like the older son, always follow the Lord as best as I can ever since getting to know Him. But I did have a very profound encounter with the living Jesus during a one on one prayer session with a charismatic priest many years ago. Ever since then, my faith went to a different level. But like you said, I was still a baby in virtues. Not until years later after following the commandments and live a more generous Gospel life, I start to get into deeper contemplative prayer life.

The initial gifts received from of baptism in Holy Spirit have to be cultivated to bear fruit.

…a greater love and understanding of the Word of God in Scripture and liturgy; the ardent desire to praise God; an eagerness to bear witness to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior… These and similar effects clearly indicate the special action of the Holy Spirit, which in terms of traditional Christian spirituality, may be a sign of mystical grace.

Such manifestation of the Holy Spirit in one’s life is definitely mystical. Anything done by the Holy Spirit is mystical.
But if there is no follow up efforts after the initial gift, there will be no later manifestation. Like you said, the initial gift points the way. But it is up to us for development. I do think receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the conversion experience, could bring one to the beginning stage of contemplation. If you read Father Dubay’s “Fire Within”, there is definitely one stage fits the above description. If one faithfully cultivate on his prayer life from then on, new fruits could certainly follow.

 

[RoyJr]

Roy,

I think I hear you saying that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is solely a gift of empowerment?

Jesus said it, not me.
Had he said ‘you will receive contemplative prayer’ or ‘the power of your own opinion’ then it would be thus. Yet, he said “power”. Christ only used this word when reffering to his power to forgive sins & that he gave to the apostles & in Acts 1.

“Solely” a gift of empowerment? There is NO power other than God, so your question has me wondering what other “empowerment” you might be considering? We can do nothing on our own, as Jesus said, “apart from me you can do nothing”. The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” surely didn’t make the disciples more fearful, now did it.
St. Paul speaks of grace & power throughout his letters to the church.

Yet not everyone is called in the same way as the apostles, who were given a specific mission to preach - fearlessly!

Please read The Decree on the Apostolate of Lay Persons - Vatican II.

Prior to the Pentecost experience,

???
I walk down the street & step in a puddle, that’s an experience. The day of Pentecost was the day that “THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER” was fulfilled in the life of the Church, not some mere feeling or moment in time, here today & forgotten tomorrow.

Christ did give them gifts to heal and cast out demons, so there were other gifts being exercised.

He “empowered” them by the grace of his Holy Spirit to do these things. He granted them permission to exercise them according to the will of the Father. He worked through them, as he does those “baptised with the Holy Spirit”. It is the same Lord that is served, yet when the disciples allowed God to work through them before Pentecost, they still were filled with fear after the Resurrection. Interesting that they were not “empowered” to be bold & fearless until after receiving the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”.

I have known some who had this experience and received an empowerment in prayer, teaching, ministering, or simply living their vocation to the fullest measure of God’s will as they know it. The test is in the fruit, yes?

God only works through us when we surrender to his will, yes. But again you speak of an “experience” as something that happened once, not that which is renewed daily. The spirit of Pentecost should drive us daily to deeper union with God, & not be seen as some nice story in the Bible.

Too many “catholics” using the excuse of their understanding of “contemplative prayer” to sit on their butts & do nothing. Falling asleep in front of the Blessed Sacrament IS NOT “contemplative prayer”.

Very often in saintly giants like Therese of the Child Jesus, these gifts were completely hidden until the time of their manifestation by God as to the great holiness of their lives. We simply cannot know. However, in speaking of St. Therese, much as she tried to disguise her words in her writings, the reader can discern that she had an infusion of very special gifts of the Holy Spirit.

“Saintly giants” …???
What have any of the saints done that God can not do through us? Many times “catholics” do fall under the deception of idolatry when it comes to the saints. All glory belongs to God. The lives of the saints are for inspiration, not for a look what they can do attitude.

I have personally seen hundreds of healings & miracles (wonderous deeds) performed by God’s Spirit through lay persons then I’ve ever read about in the lives of the saints. Let’s not forget that St. Paul calls us (the church) the saints of God.

I don’t mean to come off agruementative, but I have been allowed to see things in a much different light than most “catholics”. Some of us must, as Yoda said, “(you must) unlearn what you have learened”. Not everything is point blank & period. God continues to reveal new truths to us each day.

 

[Joysong]

I don’t mean to come off agumentative, but I have been allowed to see things in a much different light than most “catholics”.

I posted earlier today regarding the counsel of St. John of the Cross, wherein it is best to let people have their own opinion. I hold myself in check and have no comments.

 

[RoyJr]

Yes, indeed. The very quote from scripture that you mentioned, “Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.”

Not really.
John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

Contemplative prayer in some instances does indeed take on the groaning of the spirit. Naturally, the writer of the gospel, although having fully understood the experience, did not give it a name in today’s terminology, to which the Doctors of the Church have applied the term ‘contemplation.’ There are forms of this prayer which are not the ecstatic joy some think is always present; but no, it can well come in the form of a deep ‘distress’ as St. Teresa calls it, or a groaning in the Spirit as St. Paul wrote.

please present the docrtrine of contemplative prayer of which you speak.

Again, without giving it a name, St. Paul indicated that ‘eye has not seen nor ear heard’ what God has prepared for those who love Him. Bingo, contemplation. And we know that this has varying intensities from the initial beginnings to a very advanced ecstacy of rapture, which it seems clear that St. Paul experienced.

Sounds like your interpreting the scriptures as you would have them, not as they are written. St. Paul named it as “inexpressible groanings” or in some other translations “unintelligible utterances” which sounds more like the gift of tongues (Act 2:4)than the “gift” of contemplation.

9 ministerial gifts are mentioned in 1 Cor 12, & 7 in Isaiah 11, interesting that “contemplation” is not one of them.

The new american bible (the translation used at Holy Mass) defines tongues thusly:

Tongues (Speak In). Two passages of the New Testament speak of the gift of tongues (Acts 2 and 1 Cor 14). In the first, we find the mention of a miracle by which the apostles suddenly began to speak in tongues foreign to them - or by which the auditors ach understand in their own language what the apostles said to them in the apostles’ tongue. In the second, it is a case of a phenomenon that is difficult to describe and analyze; this was a manner of expressing oneself in inarticualte sounds or cries, proper to certain states of mystical exaltaion.

As Fr. Faricy says, “praying in tongues is noisy contemplative prayer”.

 

[InLight247]

I posted earlier today regarding the counsel of St. John of the Cross, wherein it is best to let people have their own opinion. I hold myself in check and have no comments.

 

[RoyJr]

I posted earlier today regarding the counsel of St. John of the Cross, wherein it is best to let people have their own opinion. I hold myself in check and have no comments.

St. Paul said “Love is happy only with the truth” 1 Cor 13

It is a very rare occasion when I express my own opinion. Everything I’ve written was directly from scripture & not my interpretation of scripture nor my opinion of it.

I have read the New Teatamant 4 times in the past 10 years from Matthew to Revelations, & I have yet to find the passage that says ‘trust in your own opinion’ or ‘by your opinions are you saved’.

More people are going to hell on their opinions than on their utter rejection of God. That’s my opinion.

You are also a bit misguided in your understandings of contemplative prayer. It is not greater than any other gift.

 

[InLight247]

St.
It is a very rare occasion when I express my own opinion. Everything I’ve written was directly from scripture & not my interpretation of scripture nor my opinion of it.

I have read the New Teatamant 4 times in the past 10 years from Matthew to Revelations, & I have yet to find the passage that says ‘trust in your own opinion’ or ‘by your opinions are you saved’.

I don’t know where this “trust in your own opinion” or “by your opinions you are saved” come from??? No one has mentioned that in this thread other than your post??

 

[Pani_Rose]

Roy,

I think I hear you saying that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is solely a gift of empowerment? Yet not everyone is called in the same way as the apostles, who were given a specific mission to preach - fearlessly! Prior to the Pentecost experience, Christ did give them gifts to heal and cast out demons, so there were other gifts being exercised.

I have known some who had this experience and received an empowerment in prayer, teaching, ministering, or simply living their vocation to the fullest measure of God’s will as they know it. The test is in the fruit, yes?

Very often in saintly giants like Therese of the Child Jesus, these gifts were completely hidden until the time of their manifestation by God as to the great holiness of their lives. We simply cannot know. However, in speaking of St. Therese, much as she tried to disguise her words in her writings, the reader can discern that she had an infusion of very special gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It is in it’s essence a stirring up of everything that was given to us at Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, and each time we have received Christ in his Word and his Eucharist. All too often, we - of our own doing - do not allow God by his grace and mercy to stir up within us all he has given us that those post precious moments in our lives. The laying on of hands (Baptism in the Holy Spirit) for those that are in the Sacramental Church - Catholic or Orthodox - is the process of setting on fire all that God has had prepared for us from our beginning. Then we must strive to live to the fullness of the Holy Spirit within us by the empowerment that has taken place, all that God desires. I have found that most mature ‘charismatics’ indeed become ‘contemplatives’, but often it is a life time of work to get there.

 

[Joysong]

Hello Pani Rose,

Thank you for writing in briefest terms your understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In reality, I have understood a lot of this personally, through the LITS seminar, occasional visits to the prayer gatherings, and sound literature that is available in many Catholic bookstores. So I have no problem believing in the work of God in the hearts of those who open themselves to ask and then receive in fuller measure, all that God intends for us.

I sensed that InLight was trying to discern whether the ‘baptism’ is similar to, or equal to the infused gift of contemplative prayer. Coincidentally, I spotted a link that Barbara Therese supplied today in her St. John of the Cross thread that gives some insights of a noted Carmelite.

Page 2
A new beginning starts the journey. A new burst of love for Christ gives the energy to rise above the pleasure principle, which to this point has been a large factor in the person’s life. Personal pleasure is no longer the issue. The “new and better love” of the heavenly bridegroom further strengthened by “longings of love” gives a new focus to life. This love is the human response to God’s prior love and fuels the “urgent longings” that move the person to nakedness of spirit and transformation in Christ.

Page 3
This second conversion is more than the dramatic experience of “baptism in the spirit” or the good resolutions in a cursillo or a retreat. It is the intention to pursue the total commitment of the Ascent, Chapter 13. “Have a habitual desire to imitate Christ in all your deeds by bringing your life into conformity with his.” The real challenge is to implement this proposal by fidelity to ongoing graces. Fidelity is the project of the spiritual life.

carmelnet.org/larkin/larkin017.pdf

Maybe you have read St. Teresa’s Life, where she admitted receiving very exalted gifts of contemplation such as the Prayer of Union. (IMO, this is so exceptional a gift as to make the baptism of the Spirit pale in comparison - maybe that’s Larkin’s premise as well) And then she gradually lost much of what she had gained in those early years.

Later on, she did experience a second conversion through her reflection on Jesus at the pillar of scourging. After much fidelity to the grace of that conversion, she eventually arrived at transforming union - the intended goal of all, but lost through our own fault, as you stated in your post.

Maybe some who are reading this post would disagree with Larkin if their only experience is that of the baptism in the Spirit, so I won’t comment further than simply to post it.

I like the example of a climber who is going up one side of the mountain and has not reached the top yet. What is hidden from their immediate view, and which may be known by another who climbs the opposite side of the mountain, is this very difficulty in explaining contemplation to one who knows it not. We can only hope that when they reach the top and have a universal view of all sides of the mountian, they will fully understand that there is more - much, much more.
And to repeat my feelings of earlier posts, I believe that whether or not the experience is equal or similar is known only to God. The fruits of the experience are the true criteria of authenticity. We do know and believe that the person does experience God in some fashion — some greater, some lesser.

God bless you.

 

[InLight247]

It is in it’s essence a stirring up of everything that was given to us at Baptism…

I have found that most mature ‘charismatics’ indeed become ‘contemplatives’, but often it is a life time of work to get there.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that allowing the stir up from the Holy Spirit and receiving the fire from above is a manifestation, an awakening point.

So, if the person is truly baptized in the Spirit (have a true conversion) and if he will continue to seek God, make efforts of developing his new spiritual life (working on virtues and holiness, live a Gospel life, pray, and do penance etc.) he could gradually delve into contemplation. Therefore, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, an intense spiritual experience, a deep encounter with God, becomes an entrance that brings one to the threshold of contemplation.

 

[DBT]

“The essential sign of conversion, whether it comes instantly through baptism in the Spirit, or more gradually through the practice of virtue, is that it provides a profound intuition into the goal to be pursued by Christian practice. It is a thrust in the fundamental direction that one’s life should take as a follower of Christ. While baptism in the Spirit does not establish an advanced state of spiritual development, it is a manifest call to contemplative prayer.”

Hi Inlight!

I read the pages immeadiately before and after this quote and here’s my take on what Father is saying: the Baptism in the Spirit is not a contemplative experience per se but it is one path of many leading to it.

In this chapter on the Charismatic Renewal, Father describes how some souls experience dramatic rather than subtle conversion in their call to holiness and the practice of virtue. According to Father, the “normal course of events” for these souls over time is for the initial fervor resulting from the dramatic conversion experience to give way to the dryness that marks the onset of the Night of Sense. And the Night of Sense, according to St. John of the Cross’ teaching, is where true infused/contemplative prayer begins. Father touches on this a few paragraphs following the quote you provided. If we want to think in Teresian terms, I think the type of conversion experience Father describes in this chapter would be squarely situated in the 3rd dwelling as described in “Interior Castle.” All of this, I would think, supports some of Joysong’s points; especially those regarding the Prayer of Union.

Finally, I think Father’s main point in this chapter is to stress that ALL souls are called to contemplation and those who find themselves drawn toward the charismatic should not feel they are somehow outside the “traditional” contemplative tradition. Their experience should naturally lead one toward contemplation.

Hope this helps some . . .

Dave.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Have you ever read Hind’s Feet on High Places?
books.google.com/books?id=Jh_uyVPwAAMC&dq=hinds+feet+on+high+places&pg=PP1&ots=utrynZeIz0&sig=MQi_7E8tRSpxC34ewPnbfeazecY&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=hinds+feet+on+high+places&spell=1&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPA10,M1

I am not changing the subject at all. It is about growing in the Lord the trials and triumphs. The annointing that comes from the struggles, and the joy that comes in the morning.

That is kind of what going through LLS or being ‘Baptised in the Holy Spirit’ is all about. Through this life in Christ by the power of his Holy Spirit we overcome these obsticles and grow as did St. Teresa. She truly experienced prayer language and resting in the Spirit - which she called flying - .

I truly think we are all talking about the same thing. Many believe they need to understand everything before accepting, but St. Augustine teaches us that understanding begins with acceptance! Taking a step of faith and trusting the Lord Jesus will not let our feet to stumble.

I share this not out of pride, but in humility. I know for myself personally, I can easliy get lost in prayer, it is nothing of my own making, and when it does occur I know it is by God’s grace and nothing I have done. This is something that you find in many of us that have been in the CCR for years. We have been involved since 1979. Our time of quietness and contemplation of the Love and Mercy of Our Lord is something that we truly cherish, and the more we grow in the Holy Spirit the more we grow in quietness. Actually, many of those in the CCR are also Third Order Carmelites/Franciscans.

Yet the Lord tells us to enter into his gates with praise and thankgiving. David danced before the Throne of God. Harps were played. I guess that is the introduction and comes through the whole walk in LLS yet it continually leads us into deeper and deeper awareness of God’s actions in our lives. That is what you want. Go for it!