Baptism in the Spirit and Contemplation

[InLight247]

Dave, thanks for sharing some of your experiences.
When I read your post, tears flowed down my face. And a co-worker happened to walk into my office to put something into a file cabinet. He just walked out without saying anything. He must wonder what’s wrong with me.

I don’t know why I cried, but just did. I asked the questions because I am very confused.
If you read “Fire Within” from page 86 to 89, I can identify myself with almost every point Fr. Dubay talks about. If you read the part about detachment, I honestly feel I am so detached from many things, especially material things. Nothing seems to interest me except being and seeking the Lord. Sometimes I have to remind myself I should have some “fun”. Sometimes I doubt if I am normal. I seem to go to the extreme of solitude lately. EWTN used to be the only TV station I watch. Lately I don’t even have intention to turn it on. I enjoy the complete silence and solitude. You may notice I have written a series of poems on the forum. They come to me one after another in complete solitude. My writings may not be mature but they are definitely honest and out of my love for God. They are inspired by the Holy Spirit. My desire for God is often so intense and I sometimes have a feeling of burst. But I don’t ever recall I have gone through any dark night of sense, I am not talk about dark night of soul as Jim mentioned. That will be much later for me. Maybe I am very terrible with meditation to start with, so I don’t realize I have problem of meditation?

I was struggling last night how to say what I just said. But I realize if I don’t say it out, I cannot really ask what I want to ask. Even after saying what I said above, I am still not sure if I made my question understood.

And, Joysong, your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut is always welcome, though I initially addressed it to Dave. I have to stop for now, I don’t want everyone walks by my office thinks I am crazy. I don’t know why I feel such unnamed pain at this moment.

 

[Joysong]

Thanks for the open door, InLight …

Dave will surely help all of us when he returns later, but I thought it might help to post the initial steps on the ladder of love, as written by St. John of the Cross, since these confirm what has been posted in this thread so far, as you will notice.

Incidentally, when we share our thoughts here, sometimes we may assume that the reader is quite familiar with these Carmelite saints’ terminology. If ever you find something over your head, as we often do when reading their works, please don’t hesitate to ask for help. Their language of love is often poetic, mystical, and can be difficult to understand.

catholictreasury.info/JohnICN/dn34.htm

My soul has languished (in regard to all things) for Your salvation [Ps. 119:81]. As a sick person changes color and loses appetite for all foods, so on this step of love the soul changes the color of its past life and loses its appetite for all things. The soul does not get this sickness unless an excess of heat is sent to it from above …

Remember how we talked about the experience of an initial conversion? Whatever form that may take, it seems to be a rather necessary step that God bestows in order to draw the soul and move it from things of earth, to things eternal.

We clearly explained this sickness and languor in respect to all things when we mentioned the annihilation of which the soul becomes aware when it begins to climb this ladder of contemplation.

2 It becomes unable then to find satisfaction, support, consolation, or a resting place in anything. The soul goes about so solicitously on this step that it looks for its Beloved in all things. In all its thoughts it turns immediately to the Beloved; in all converse and business it at once speaks about the Beloved; when eating, sleeping, keeping vigil, or doing anything else, it centers all its care on the Beloved, as we pointed out in speaking of the anxious longings of love.

I would note that in addition to being unable to find rest in anything, the additional sign of ‘attentiveness to its Beloved’ would indicate that this transition is not due to lukewarmness, which is what you asked about.

Since the words are from God, and my heart is pure in sharing them for the benefit of anyone reading here, and since so many lessons are contained in repeating them for His glory, I share a locution He gave me with regard to something one may experience at this stage of prayer.

I was going about in deep distress of spirit for several hours, all the while my heart was attentive to the Lord within me. The interior distress was so acute that I finally cried out, Lord, what IS THIS!??? At that moment, with no idea present other than my interior groaning, I heard the scripture within, “Foxes have dens, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no where to lay His head.”

Immediately, His enlightenment showed me the cause of my distress as I heard these words, realizing that my soul was hungry for the Beloved alone, and nothing on earth permitted me to find rest or lay my head while this prayer lasted. My spirit rejoiced immediately after hearing these holy words, and the distress left me at once, which amazed me because nothing previously was able to remove it.

I learned that this was an ‘arid’ form of contemplation, rather than the sweet form which everyone reads about and associates with the word contemplation. St. John’s words about the ‘wounds of love’ are to be understood pertaining to this form of contemplative prayer in which the soul is being purified, but which also brings a great deal of delight in suffering it.

So you see, and as you may already know, contemplation has so many varying connotations and anyone who is not familiar with these writings will easily get sidetracked in their understanding of it.

 

[Joysong]

TOP:

How do you keep from backsliding during this? Obedience, trust? Is withdrawing from people discouraged?

I see that the Shepherd has gone ahead of the sheep, for just yesterday when reading about being in the thick mist, which seems to be a stage I find myself in rather often, I asked myself many times whether I am backsliding. The words in the book from the Shepherd to Much-Afraid were:

Much-Afraid, don’t you know by now that I never think of you as you are now, but as you will be when I have brought you to the Kingdom of Love and washed you from all the stains and defilements of the journey?

Did you really think that I would let you stray from the right path to the High Places without doing anything to warn you or to prevent it?

Thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying, “this is the way, walk in it.” Always go forward along the path of obedience as far as you know it until I intervene, even if it seems to be leading you where you fear I could never mean you to go.

Never doubt that the High Places are there, towering up above you, and be quite sure that whatever happens I mean to bring you there exactly as I have promised.

May Jesus give you comfort!

I don’t understand what you mean about withdrawing from people, but sometimes it is necessary for our peace of soul and communion with the Lord to go apart into solitude.

 

[DBT]

I don’t know why I cried, but just did. I asked the questions because I am very confused.

Ah, Inlight! You’re in very good company! Confusion about what is happening is very much part of the purification process. Confusion is meant to lead us to even a greater sense of abandonment because we need to learn that we don’t have the answers . . . only God does.

If you read “Fire Within” from page 86 to 89, I can identify myself with almost every point Fr. Dubay talks about. If you read the part about detachment, I honestly feel I am so detached from many things, especially material things. Nothing seems to interest me except being and seeking the Lord.

And while this might not seem “normal” from a worldly perspective, it is part and parcel for the purifications of this night.

Sometimes I have to remind myself I should have some “fun”. Sometimes I doubt if I am normal. I seem to go to the extreme of solitude lately. EWTN used to be the only TV station I watch. Lately I don’t even have intention to turn it on. I enjoy the complete silence and solitude.

I certainly know what you’re talking about! My Carmelite formation assignments have been intensively focused on St. John for the past year or so and our formation director gave us some advice to help with the tendancy to go to extremes that sometimes happens when immersed in his writings. She said we need to find “balance” between heaven and earth. While our eyes might be constantly looking toward heaven, our feet need to be firmly planted on the ground. With regard to my dealings with others, the important thing is “to be where they’re at.” In other words - try and see things how others see it rather than being so reliant on “self.” I can’t tell you how much this little tidbit helped me in my home life alone! While I might not particularily enjoy going to holiday parties, I know it makes my wife very happy. So in an odd kind of way, I look at it as a kind of joyful penance

You may notice I have written a series of poems on the forum. They come to me one after another in complete solitude. My writings may not be mature but they are definitely honest and out of my love for God. They are inspired by the Holy Spirit. My desire for God is often so intense and I sometimes have a feeling of burst.

Yes I’ve read them and it has been clear to me for a long time that God is doing wonderful work in your soul!

But I don’t ever recall I have gone through any dark night of sense, I am not talk about dark night of soul as Jim mentioned. That will be much later for me. Maybe I am very terrible with meditation to start with, so I don’t realize I have problem of meditation?

St. John teaches that many people are brought to the night of sense. Another very good piece of advice I was given by a Carmelite friar is don’t presume that the teachings of John and Teresa are so far “out there” that they can’t possibly be meant for us. They are meant for us.

And I’m not sure there really is such a thing as “being good at meditation” I’m sure God was never impressed with any of my “big thoughts!” The key from St. John’s teaching is not about being good, but lacking desire for it to simply remain in silence and solitude . . . what I call just “being.” Sounds like you know that well

Inlight, I’ll take a look at the passage from Fr. Dubay that you mentioned but I think I’ll look more toward Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange hoping there might be some “new” meat there that might help you. In the meantime, Carole had some wonderful comments about arid contemplation which, coincidently, is a major theme in Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange’s work. Much to ponder!

Keep your head up . . . you’re doing great!

Dave.

 

[DBT]

If you read “Fire Within” from page 86 to 89, I can identify myself with almost every point Fr. Dubay talks about

Ah yes, Prayer of Quiet . . . now THAT says a lot!

Fr. Dubay is very good but have you considered going directly to the source . . . St. Teresa herself? The 4th dwelling of “Interior Castle” and Chapters 28-31 of “Way of Perfection” treat passive recollection and the Prayer of Quiet in great detail.

As Carole metioned, one of the things that is most confusing about contemplation is that sometimes it is experienced as consoling, sometimes arid. And finding where all this “fits” in the Saints writings can be difficult.

Going back to Fr. Dubay for a moment since I know you have “Fire Within,” I’d spend some time with Chapter 7, Conditions For Growth. Regardless of how you’re experiencing this prayer, growth in virtue is what’s REALLY important. Pages 112-117 are very good . . . especially the parts about retrogression. Given some of the things in your recent posts, I’d also think his comments on solitude (pg 122-125) would also be useful.

Also, whether you think of it in these terms or not, prayer of this type (recollection and quiet) indicates the soul has moved through or is moving through the night of sense in St. John’s classifications. The “Ascent of Mt. Carmel” and “Dark Night of the Soul” treats the active and passive nature of this night in great detail.

You can also find a brief overview of this in “Fire Within” beginning on Pg 161. Considering the arid nature of this prayer that you’ve been describing, here are some of Father’s comments in his section “Course of Action” in the treatment of the night of sense (pg 167 and 168):

“Repeatedly over the years and with almost no variations in substance, spiritual direction has impressed upon me that people interpret this stage of prayer development as though their inner world is caving in. They have little idea of what is going on and consequently fail to realize how beneficial it is.”

“They are so convinced that their prayer is abysmal that they assume the writer (John, Teresa etc) could not really be writing of them. Extreme discouragement is the typical result.”

“A man as experienced as St. John of the Cross could remark that many individuals think they are not praying, when indeed their prayer is intense.”

“John is talking about people whose prayer is not simply satisfactory but intense, and yet they think they are not praying at all. In the first night of sense God is infusing an excellent contemplation, but the recipient quite completely misses what is happening. The principal reason for this mistake is unreal expectations of what purifying prayer ought to be”

“If, then, we suppose that a person is realistic in his assessment of this first purification, we may continue with several concrete suggestions as to what he ought and ought not do. First of all, he should not abbreviate prayer time or abandon the effort but should be patient with this inner emptiness and refuse to be downcast about it. Second, he is to pay no attention to discursive meditation, since this is not the time for it. When one is fully into the first night, he is not in a transitional stage and so has no need to attempt what he cannot do. Rather, he should remain quiet with a simple attentiveness to God and with no desire to taste or feel divine things.”

Regarding, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange and his classic work “The Three Ages of the Interior Life” there’s soooooo much there I don’t know where to begin Two comments about what he teaches, though, I’ve found to be particularily helpful about the things you’re describing:

1. The Prayer of Simplicity should gradually become our normal mode of praying (i.e. Brother Lawrence, Cloud of Unknowing).
2. As our interior conversation becomes more and more habitual, we need to keep close tabs on whether we are talking to God or really just talking to ourselves. One of the things that most struck me in his treatment of the Transforming Union is that perfected souls are REALLY praying to God constantly while imperfect souls just think they are . . . when, in reality, they’re just playing “Oprah” in their mind in a never ending stream of self-diagnosis and introspection.

Well, sorry for this rambling post. Hopefully something here is useful!

Dave

 

[InLight247]

You’re in very good company! Confusion about what is happening is very much part of the purification process. Confusion is meant to lead us to even a greater sense of abandonment because we need to learn that we don’t have the answers . . . only God does.

I have never thought about that confusion may lead us to a greater sense of abandonment, and it could be part of purification process. You made a good point. It certainly could add humility.

And while this might not seem “normal” from a worldly perspective, it is part and parcel for the purifications of this night.

There is a question here. I thought I have never experienced any “night”. That’s where the confusion starts. I know I am not a beginner, and with all the “symptoms” I mentioned, I wonder how come I have never experienced any night?

I certainly know what you’re talking about! My Carmelite formation assignments have been intensively focused on St. John for the past year or so and our formation director gave us some advice to help with the tendancy to go to extremes that sometimes happens when immersed in his writings. She said we need to find “balance” between heaven and earth. While our eyes might be constantly looking toward heaven, our feet need to be firmly planted on the ground. With regard to my dealings with others, the important thing is “to be where they’re at.” In other words - try and see things how others see it rather than being so reliant on “self.” I can’t tell you how much this little tidbit helped me in my home life alone! While I might not particularily enjoy going to holiday parties, I know it makes my wife very happy. So in an odd kind of way, I look at it as a kind of joyful penance.

Very true. I don’t want to be a weirdo. I remember several years ago when I went to the movies with my husband, I could be praying in the theater and not really knew what was going on. But I would not tell him that. In my small church group, I share some of my spiritual experiences with them but not too much lest they should feel I appear to be “holier than thou” or out of context.

You don’t know how comforting it is to hear someone say “I certainly know what you’re talking about!” Thanks, Dave!

One correction to make: When I said earlier that nothing interests me other than being and seeking the Lord, that does not include spending time with my family. I don’t think I can be detached from my family. Family time is always precious.

St. John teaches that many people are brought to the night of sense. Another very good piece of advice I was given by a Carmelite friar is don’t presume that the teachings of John and Teresa are so far “out there” that they can’t possibly be meant for us. They are meant for us.

When you said you just looked at the trees and did not pray, it reminds me sometimes I sit in front of the tabernacle and just have no thoghts. No, not in the void, but not pray. Many times I weep in the Lord, either weep in my soul, or really weep, no particular reason. I guess those experience could be for the purification, or some sort of sense of night??

I am grateful to have a place and friends I could share such inner feelings.

Originally posted by Joysong
I learned that this was an ‘arid’ form of contemplation, rather than the sweet form which everyone reads about and associates with the word contemplation. St. John’s words about the ‘wounds of love’ are to be understood pertaining to this form of contemplative prayer in which the soul is being purified, but which also brings a great deal of delight in suffering it.

So you see, and as you may already know, contemplation has so many varying connotations and anyone who is not familiar with these writings will easily get sidetracked in their understanding of it.

Joysong, your sharing is so helpful also. I appreciate the sharing of real experience. That is so precious. Real experience helps the most. I understand what you mean by “brings a great deal of delight in suffering it.” So crazy but so true!

 

[DBT]

When you said you just looked at the trees and did not pray, it reminds me sometimes I sit in front of the tabernacle and just have no thoghts. No, not in the void, but not pray. Many times I weep in the Lord, either weep in my soul, or really weep, no particular reason. I guess those experience could be for the purification, or some sort of sense of night??

So much of what you describe here and elsewhere Inlight, IMO, is simply your personal expression of the night Like you, I could never think of myself in terms of “night” until experience, good guidance and hindsight showed me otherwise

St. John can be very difficult to understand. He intimidates many people . . . even some in my own community! Terminology is a killer to understanding, at least in the beginning. But if you give him a chance, I think you’ll find him to be a true and reliable guide! He grows on you like a fine glass of wine!

You are well on your way, Inlight!

Dave.

PS - Back to your quote . . . It IS prayer and not recognizing it as such is exactly what the night of sense is about.

 

[InLight247]

St. John can be very difficult to understand. He intimidates many people . . . even some in my own community! Terminology is a killer to understanding, at least in the beginning. But if you give him a chance, I think you’ll find him to be a true and reliable guide! He grows on you like a fine glass of wine!

Maybe I should give him a chance (or give myself a chance ). I like St.Teresa, but I haven’t been attracted to St. John’s writing. Hmm…, I think I’ll make some efforts.

 

[Joysong]

Terminology is a killer

to understanding, at least in the beginning. But if you give him a chance, I think you’ll find him to be a true and reliable guide! He grows on you like a fine glass of wine!

Maybe I should give him a chance (or give myself a chance ). I like St.Teresa, but I haven’t been attracted to St. John’s writing. Hmm…, I think I’ll make some efforts.

When you expend much time in studying both of their writings, they fit together like a hand and glove, and shed light upon one another’s words. What puzzled me for a good while was the divergence in their manner of teaching, notably misunderstanding terminology.

The biggest problem for me was that John teaches us in the Ascent how to act OUTSIDE of prayer time in order to cooperate with God’s grace. Teresa teaches us what takes place INSIDE of prayer by describing both the experience itself and the effects. John bypasses the descriptions in deference to her, but concentrates instead on bringing the soul to purity of faith and detachment. Therefore in the beginning, when we try to couple the two authors, it is so easy to confuse the state of prayer with the stage of life. I used to believe what I read in Teresa’s works concerning prayer were experienced continually. :doh2:

 

[DBT]

Maybe I should give him a chance (or give myself a chance ). I like St.Teresa, but I haven’t been attracted to St. John’s writing. Hmm…, I think I’ll make some efforts.

My experience exactly! In a manner of speaking, the only way I was initially able to understand John was to reverse engineer myself to him from what I “knew” from experience from Teresa. Now, John is a goldmine!

In closing, let me briefly summarize some indicators of the night of sense - one of your early questions in this thread - I’ve picked up on reading between the lines of what you’ve said in this thread. I know you don’t “see” it but your words indicate you “know” it. The situation you find yourself in is one of the many meanings of John’s concept of “darkness.”

• Passive prayer (recollection and quiet) is becoming more common . . . your experience before the tabernacle.
• Yet there is confusion about that: what it is, why it’s happening and what to do.
• Outside of prayer and in the midst of your daily activities you experience an on-going, intensive, burning love for God.
• Sometimes this love is so intense it wounds . . . the “un-named pain.”
• And oftentimes this love overflows from the interior of your soul to the exterior in the form of emotions or in your poetry.
• You sometimes feel like an outcast or “weirdo” because of all this. (That’s a biggie!)
• Yet you are not fazed and pray always . . . even at the movies! (Now I know you’re hooked!)
• You are faithful, to the best of your understanding, to the smallest things and you would not knowingly sin if your life depended on it. Mortification of “self” is important to you.
• Zeal for souls is an outgrowth of all of this.
• And you see virtue growing in you: sometimes slow and gradual, other times in leaps and bounds.
• Yet even that might be a source of confusion . . . “How did virtue get there because I know it’s not me?”

Umm, Inlight? Two words: St. John

My best to you . . .
Dave.

 

[DBT]

When you expend much time in studying both of their writings, they fit together like a hand and glove, and shed light upon one another’s words. What puzzled me for a good while was the divergence in their manner of teaching, notably misunderstanding terminology.

The biggest problem for me was that John teaches us in the Ascent how to act OUTSIDE of prayer time in order to cooperate with God’s grace. Teresa teaches us what takes place INSIDE of prayer by describing both the experience itself and the effects. John bypasses the descriptions in deference to her, but concentrates instead on bringing the soul to purity of faith and detachment. Therefore in the beginning, when we try to couple the two authors, it is so easy to confuse the state of prayer with the stage of life. I used to believe what I read in Teresa’s works concerning prayer were experienced continually. :doh2:

Exactly!

 

[InLight247]

Originally posted by Joysong
but which also brings a great deal of delight in suffering it.

Originally posted by DBT
I know you don’t “see” it but your words indicate you “know” it. The situation you find yourself in is one of the many meanings of John’s concept of “darkness.”

Dave, my first thought while reading your words was, “I know it ??”
Since I didn’t understand “dark night of sense” but I trust your experienced assessment,
this “I know it??” hesitantly turns to “OK, maybe I know it.”

Carole, I thought about the “great delight in the suffering” you said. Could it be that the delight I experienced overshadowed my suffering and I don’t see it as a suffering or night?

I was asking myself “how does it happen that I have such prolonged consolation and hardly feel desolation?”
Though I often asked the Lord to spare me from the dark night of the soul(I am very chicken.), I did not ask for the spare of dark night of sense, that IMO, is common to believers.

But from both of your (name removed by moderator)ut, there comes a new light. Thanks so much, Hey, your team work works.

One quote I remember from St. John was to do with holiness. He said if a person is determined to be holy, the person will be able to make speedy progress. That was not hard to understand and what he said is very true. I guess I have to explore into St. John, for my own good.

 

[Joysong]

Carole, I thought about the “great delight in the suffering” you said. Could it be that the delight I experienced overshadowed my suffering and I don’t see it as a suffering or night?

I’m assuming you are speaking about the state of arid contemplative prayer? This is granted to the soul in the same infused manner that God grants to a person in the contemplative ‘prayer of quiet.’ The key is that there is keen interior suffering … that one is unable to remove it until the Lord wills … and that one is just as focused on God as in the other prayer experience. The delight is not in the spirit, which is truly suffering, but in the will finding its nearness to God and burning with love.

Though I’m sure I did not experience it to the great extent of St. Teresa, who said she became afraid when this distress came upon her for it could mean death, I did realize to a small degree what she meant in commenting that when this prayer is over, the person feels bereft of that Divine presence. Though it is a painful wounding of love, she would be glad to suffer it all over again - however, one has no way of entering that experience until the Lord grants it anew, nor can one remove it by any means whatsoever while God is bestowing it.

In his commentary on this form of contemplation, John excels Teresa, for he gives a lot of help explaining this in the book, Dark Night of the Soul.

1. And this is a second way of suffering: with desire and anxiety of love in the innermost parts of the spirit, which are the spiritual feelings. Nonetheless, in the midst of these dark and loving afflictions, the soul feels a certain companionship and an interior strength; these so fortify and accompany it that when this weight of anxious darkness passes, the soul often feels alone, empty, and weak. The reason is that since the strength and efficacy of the dark fire of love that assails it is communicated and impressed on it passively, the darkness, strength, and warmth of love cease when the assault terminates.

catholictreasury.info/JohnICN/dn26.htm

Oh how difficult it is to describe spiritual matters. But somehow I believe you know them experientially, and I believe the Holy Spirit can help you to sort it out. I don’t suppose giving things a name is really the important part, but entering into the mysteries of prayer is everything.

Like Dave said, I believe from the fruits you describe, that you are experiencing a good deal of Divine love, whether in wounding, or in joy.

Carole

 

[DBT]

Dave, my first thought while reading your words was, “I know it ??”

You “know it” in the sense that you have experienced the type of things John talks about in the night of sense as it transitions to the Illuminative Way. All of the things addressed in the last post are covered in either John’s discussion of the active or passive night of sense. Whether you see it as suffering, darkness or night is another matter entirely

Could it be that the delight I experienced overshadowed my suffering and I don’t see it as a suffering or night?

Not to jump in on Carole, but this was certainly MY experience and why I had difficulty relating to John in the early days . . . I was so overwhelmed by the delights of the consoling contemplation that I did not see all the rest as suffering. In a certain sense I was blinded. But this too will pass . . . that’s the lesson of the night and why John (stages) is such a much needed compliment to Teresa (states)

Finally, part of my initial difficulty with John was that reading about the Dark Nights just seemed so dramatic. Since then I’ve come to realize there’s degrees of intensity and ebbs and flows in all this. Some souls just have a greater tolerance - or maybe God recognizes there’s only so much a given soul can take. Think of Brother Lawrence for a moment. He often said his greatest suffering was not to suffer at all! So which was he? Probably doesn’t matter a hill of beans . . . yet he was a true disciple of St. John of the Cross and knew both the nights very well (sense and spirit).

So while we might not experience all this to the degree of a John, Teresa or Therese . . . we still get some small taste of it. Maybe it just means we are meant to be “lesser saints.”

Dave.

PS -
Just a sidenote - One of the ideas Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange presents in “Three Ages of the Interior Life” was to address the reason why some souls brought to contemplation are drawn to St. Teresa while others gravitate to St. John. His basic point was this: those experiencing consoling contemplation tend to see themselves more clearly in Teresa and all her discussion of consolation and delights while arid contemplation is primarily the domain of John (although Teresa knew that well too . . . it’s just a matter of emphasis between the two).

Also, Father describes how those brought to contemplation slowly over a period of years are more prone to NOT recognize the intitial signs of contemplation and experience the dryness so often associated with the night of sense. This is because everything is so subtle and gradual for these souls.

However, those brought to contemplation quickly - through dramatic conversions like mine - are more likely to need the “mothers milk” of consoling contemplation because the prayer changes are so dramatic and we don’t have our sea legs yet (sorry, mixing metaphors!)

Just some more food for thought . . .

 

[Joysong]

I was so overwhelmed by the delights of the consoling contemplation that I did not see all the rest as suffering. In a certain sense I was blinded. But this too will pass . . .

Sigh, now there’s a true statement, if I ever saw one!

 

[InLight247]

Originally posted by Joysong
I’m assuming you are speaking about the state of arid contemplative prayer?

NO, I am that advanced yet, no, no.
I was talking about **if **I really have experienced any dark night of sense, it could be that my delight in the Lord make me overlook my night, thus did not realize it was a taste of night.

 

[InLight247]

Not to jump in on Carole, but this was certainly MY experience and why I had difficulty relating to John in the early days . . . I was so overwhelmed by the delights of the consoling contemplation that I did not see all the rest as suffering. In a certain sense I was blinded.

What you said is what I suspect of myself. If I really have experienced any night of sense, it must be I constantly feel the consolation and overlooked dryness. All those tears, and sorrow in heart were sweetness to me.

I would say I was blinded. A person in love is usually blind.
Not only I did not realize I could have experienced some night of sense, I did not even realize I was getting into contemplation for long long time. I just did not know.

PS -
Just a sidenote - One of the ideas Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange presents in “Three Ages of the Interior Life” was to address the reason why some souls brought to contemplation are drawn to St. Teresa while others gravitate to St. John. His basic point was this: those experiencing consoling contemplation tend to see themselves more clearly in Teresa and all her discussion of consolation and delights while arid contemplation is primarily the domain of John (although Teresa knew that well too . . . it’s just a matter of emphasis between the two).

Maybe I should remain chickened out from St. John.

Also, Father describes how those brought to contemplation slowly over a period of years are more prone to NOT recognize the intitial signs of contemplation and experience the dryness so often associated with the night of sense. This is because everything is so subtle and gradual for these souls.
However, those brought to contemplation quickly - through dramatic conversions like mine - are more likely to need the “mothers milk” of consoling contemplation …

I don’t know what is my case, slowly or quickly? You see there are many things I don’t know. It does not matter. But one thing I do know is I like and need honey and milk.

 

[DBT]

Maybe I should remain chickened out from St. John.

There’s nothing to fear . . . but if you’re more comfortable with Teresa there’s certainly nothing wrong with that Have you read his poetry? Maybe that’s a “safe” place to start.

But one thing I do know is I like and need honey and milk.

That might be the case now but things do change You’ve spoken at some length about detachment . . . just try and keep that in mind about spiritual matters like this as well. Otherwise, attachments to consolation and delight have a funny way of biting us in the rear end when we least expect it. Now THAT’S something St. John has much to talk about.

Dave

 

[InLight247]

Originally posted by DBT
That might be the case now but things do change You’ve spoken at some length about detachment . . . just try and keep that in mind about spiritual matters like this as well. Otherwise, attachments to consolation and delight have a funny way of biting us in the rear end when we least expect it. Now THAT’S something St. John has much to talk about.

You are right. I realized that. When Carole thought I was talking about arid contemplation as she experienced, I felt an immediate instinct of stepping back, a “no, not that, I don’t want that yet.” I realize I am weak. And I don’t hesitate to admit my weakness. That’s probably why I am given a prolonged period of consolation. The Lord knows whom he is dealing with.

But no one eats baby food forever (though I like to be babied as long as I can).
So, what book of St. John do you recommend as a starting point?
I also want to check out the “Hind’s Feet” Carole and Pani Rose talked about. I enjoy spiritual reading anyway.

Dave, a year ago you recommended “The Practice of the Presence of God”. It became one of my favorite books. I repeatedly mentioned that book to my small church group. Now two ladies are reading them. You never know who are being influenced from your initial (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[DBT]

So, what book of St. John do you recommend as a starting point?

Why don’t I do this: Here’s a link to St. John’s poetry from ICS, IMO, the best publishers of Carmelite works:

www.carmelite.com/saints/john/works/p.htm

Most of St. John’s major works begin with a poem to show what’s in his heart which then leads into his commentary to explain what it all means (and this is where the difficulty sometimes begins. Sorry, I didn’t say that! ) On a more serious note, perhaps something here will strike your fancy.

To be honest, the way I eased into St. John was just this way . . . not thinking much, but simply enjoying and absorbing his teaching through his poetry. For a period of time, I even used it as a kind of launching pad for mental prayer. You could even use it as a basis for Lectio if you do that.

As far as what specific work to begin with, there’s several points of view on that. Do you start at the end (Living Flame of Love) and work your way back to the beginning (Ascent) or vice versa? From my end, I’ve always been partial to “Spiritual Canticle.”

But as far as all that goes, I think I might just leave that to Carole. As you well know Carole is a tremendous wealth of knowledge . . . I can’t think of any single person I’ve learned more from about the interior life than her. And more than once she’s saved me from getting shiprwrecked on deserted spiritual shoals like the attachment to consolations and delights I mentioned in a previous post.

Maybe we can see what she has to say? In the meantime, no doubt the poetry will be a good starting point to whet your appetite . . .

Dave.