Baptism in the Spirit and Contemplation

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Thanks, Rob. My question is not about our obligations but our gains.
Do we get more than one day of plenary indulgence on Divine Mercy Sunday?
Somehow I have an impression that all the punishments of our past sins are pardoned and erased. I may be wrong.
A plenary indulgence is always the same. It always eliminates all temporal punishment due to sin. So, really, every day is a day of divine mercy, because you can get one every day (and a second time at the hour of your death). 🙂

The trick is getting one. :getholy:

EDIT: And the one at death is pretty awesome. If a priest is unavailable, all you need to be is “in the habit of reciting some prayers during” your lifetime, and the Church supplies for the three conditions needed. (In any case, I tend to get a humorous picture in my head of the “half-hour” of my death, where I had just exactly the needed time to do one of those scripture/rosary/adoration indulgences-- half an hour is very convenient amount of time to die. Hehe. My humor is weird… I know.)

-Rob
 
The thread seems to have taken a turn towards the subject of indulgences, particularly of plenary indulgences. While I have nothing against gaining indulgences, I cannot help feeling that being too concerned about obtaining them has almost a mercenary element about it. Nobody by nature is fond of suffering, but to try to escape suffering altogether, or to try at least to reduce it as much as possible, may not be too healthy an attitude to have.

Perhaps part of the problem hinges on just what Purgatory is. If we look upon Purgatory strictly as a punishment, then of course our aim would be to avoid this punishment as much as possible. But if we see Purgatory as purgation, as its name implies, that is, as a time of purification, then perhaps we would not see it as something that ought to be avoided at all costs, but as something that is necessary, and to be embraced.

The good news though, as the quote from St John of the Cross that JoySong posted shows, is that we can, if we are willing, undergo our Purgatory here, rather than waiting till after our deaths. I may be wrong, but I don’t think that obtaining numerous plenary indulgences so as to avoid the suffering involved in purgation, is the answer to the problem of Purgatory. We must be ready to enter fully into Heaven. If we carry a lot of worldly baggage with us at our deaths, we would actually not want to enter Heaven yet because we will not be ready for it–we would prefer to be cleaned up first. But the purgation itself can include an immense amount of joy!

Bear in mind the parable of the wedding guest that tried to sneak in improperly dressed. Remember too what Jesus said to Peter when Peter objected to having Jesus wash his feet at the Last Supper: “If I do not wash your feet, you will have no part of me” to which Peter replied, of course, “Then not my feet only, Lord, but my hands and head as well,” or something to that effect–in other words, “All of me, then, Lord, not just my feet.” And what is this washing but Purgatory? Something to be rejoiced at, I would think, not avoided.
Code:
O hope of every contrite heart, O joy of all the meek;
To those who fall, how kind thou art! How good to those who seek!
But what to those who find? Ah, this no tongue nor pen can show;
The love of Jesus, what it is None but His loved ones know.

--- St. Bernard of Clairvaux: "Jesus the Very Thought of Thee."
 
Dave - Thanks for the prayers!

Tim - Wow, what a story! I think I’ll start calling you “Job”!!

Carole - Ah, indulgences… how I hope to get out of this nursing home and back to daily Mass and weekly Confession! Anyway, all my indulgences go to the souls in Purgatory, that’s how I’ve reckoned that I’ll probably need a minimum of a “gazillion” years there. 🤷

Everyone - The Dark Night of the Soul, The Ascent of Mt. Carmel, the Spiritual Canticle of the Soul and the Bridegroom Christ… these are all available to read free online at www.ccel.org or download a copy to your computer, but you need Adobe Reader. It’s not a Catholic site, and more of what you can download is Protestant, but they do have quite a few good Catholic books that you can download… Sts. Therese of Lisieux, Francis de Sales, Bernard of Clairvaux, Ignatius of Loyola, Augustine, Teresa of Avila, Alphonsus de Liguori, to name just a few authors.

“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” - St. Gemma Galgani
 
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Gabrielis:
If we carry a lot of worldly baggage with us at our deaths, we would actually not want to enter Heaven yet because we will not be ready for it–we would prefer to be cleaned up first.
I believe that if someone is in the habit of going to daily mass frequently, and gaining plenaries for themselves and the souls in purgatory … the requirement of having no attachment to sin, not even venial sins, would indicate a very cleaned-up heart, no? Your example of the wedding guest being unfittingly dressed would not appear to be someone in the example I am presenting herein.

Jesus gave His Church the power to bind and to loose and said it would be ratified by Him in heaven. Therefore, if the Church has promulgated these indulgences, I cannot see any reason why they would not be held true upon our death. Let’s hope we are able to discern the meaning of “no attachment to sin, even venial sins.” Otherwise, these may be only partial indugences if we fool ourselves while retaining a pet sin. 😛
 
Dear Klara Collins,

This side-track into indulgences seems to be something that would interest the general forum in spirituality. Is it possible to pull this section and put it into a new thread? :newidea: Thanks for your consideration of this.
 
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RobNY:
Joysong-- I have not seen the “Come Holy Spirit” under plenary indulgences, but only noticed it as a partially indulgenced prayer. Funny enough it quotes only the first sentence, “Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love,” and not the rest of the prayer.
Maybe it is partial, for in your example, it is not prayed in full, nor is it prayed for thirty days, which would earn a plenary. My bible gives a partial for five years for a one-time recitation.
I noticed that in the new regulations for indulgences, the “years” are now omitted. I always disliked trying to figure out how years applied in eternal time, and I agree with the Church on this change.

The quote under the entire prayer says: Enchiridion Indulgentiacum 287.

Back to some of your examples … the reading of scripture for 1/4 hour gains a partial, and if devoutly read for 1/4 hour for 30 days, you will gain a plenary. (For people who cannot do the full 1/2 hour for a daily plenary, take comfort)

I agree with the plenary at death, for that, too, is in my bible under the older E.I. 694. It was probably restated in the Manual of Indulgences. I probably should put this new edition on my list of books to buy. 😉

Carole
 
Originally by Gabrielis
The thread seems to have taken a turn towards the subject of indulgences, particularly of plenary indulgences. While I have nothing against gaining indulgences, I cannot help feeling that being too concerned about obtaining them has almost a mercenary element about it. ……………….
Perhaps part of the problem hinges on just what Purgatory is. If we look upon Purgatory strictly as a punishment, then of course our aim would be to avoid this punishment as much as possible. But if we see Purgatory as purgation, as its name implies, that is, as a time of purification, then perhaps we would not see it as something that ought to be avoided at all costs, but as something that is necessary, and to be embraced.
I had no intention to gear this thread toward plenary indulgence. But since the topic came up, it’s not bad to gain a better understanding about it. A temporary detour is always turned back to the original road. 😉

My goal of directly going to Heaven instead of Purgatory is more resulted from the longing and love of the Beloved than avoiding purification. When you are in love with someone, you just cannot wait to see the person, and to be with him. Any delay is a pain. One will do anything possible to bring himself to the beloved and present himself in top condition. Like any worldly thing, there is always a close correlation between expectation and performance. High expectation encourages high performance. If we shoot for heaven, we may still end up in Purgatory, if we only shoot for Purgatory……

Aiming for heaven helps me earnestly work toward holiness. Regardless of my faults, heartily working toward holiness is pleasing to the Lord. It makes me happy to please Him.

To link back to the theme of this thread, nothing impure can have union with the Pure.
Working toward holiness is the way toward purity. All the requirements of plenary indulgence are helpful for this goal.
 
InLight:
My goal of directly going to Heaven instead of Purgatory is more resulted from the longing and love of the Beloved than avoiding purification. When you are in love with someone, you just cannot wait to see the person, and to be with him. Any delay is a pain. One will do anything possible to bring himself to the beloved and present himself in top condition. Like any worldly thing, there is always a close correlation between expectation and performance. High expectation encourages high performance.
If we shoot for heaven, we may still end up in Purgatory, if we only shoot for Purgatory……
If we only shoot for Purgatory, I would believe that the essential condition of “no attachment to sin, even venial sins” would not be motivation in the heart, but suggests a lesser degree of love. Your post is very significant in revealing love’s essence: union without delay!

I know a person who had a mystical experience that revealed how much more pain there is in the spirit than in the body, and if that is what one suffers in Purgatory, we do indeed need to offer indulgences for them!
 
Ah, Carole, yes, union without delay it is!

I am amazed by your posts that how often we have similar thinking.
 
I can use some help on Book two Chapter 11, paragraph 10 of “The Ascent of Mount Carmel”.

About the seven degrees of love, it refers to Revelation 12:3, 13:1, 13:7.
While St. John’s interpretation makes sense, I did not see the same explanation in the footnotes of my Bible.

St. John says fighting the first head of the beast is to do with denial of the sensible objects of the world, the second is to do with the sensory visions, and the third, interior sense.

My footnote says the dragon attacked the members of the church and the beast was worshiped by the world. It makes sense that all heads are to do with worldly attachments. But I cannot find any interpretation to do with “seven degrees of love”.

Are these all St. John’s own interpretation?
 
About the seven degrees of love, it refers to Revelation 12:3, 13:1, 13:7.
While St. John’s interpretation makes sense, I did not see the same explanation in the footnotes of my Bible.
It may be a translation problem, for on this site, it reads this way in the preceeding section 9:
  1. If, then, the soul conquer the devil upon the first step, it will pass to the second; and if upon the second likewise, it will pass to the third; and so onward, through all seven mansions, [288] which are the seven steps of love, until the Spouse shall bring it to the cellar of wine of His perfect charity.
The footnote 288 says: [The phrase is suggestive of St. Teresa, though the Spanish word is not moradas, but mansiones.]
  1. Happy the soul that can fight against that beast of the Apocalypse [289] which has seven heads, set over against these seven steps of love, and which makes war therewith against each one, and strives therewith against the soul in each of these mansions, wherein the soul is being exercised and is mounting step by step in the love of God.
St. John says fighting the first head of the beast is to do with denial of the sensible objects of the world, the second is to do with the sensory visions, and the third, interior sense.
My bible footnote on this scripture says:
The picture of the first beast is based on the 7th chapter of Daniel. This beast is the figure of the kingdoms of the world, kingdoms founded on passion and selfishness which is in every age are antagonistic to Christ and seek to oppress the servants of God.

In that respect of overcoming the first head of the beast, I can agree with St. John’s statement. Here is another thought that came to mind from Living Flame of Love:
  1. And here it ought to be pointed out why so few reach this high state of perfect union with God. It should be known that the reason is not that God wishes only a few of these spirits to be so elevated; he would rather want all to be perfect, but he finds few vessels that will endure so lofty and sublime a work. Since he tries them in little things and finds them so weak that they immediately flee from work, unwilling to be subject to the least discomfort and mortification, it follows that not finding them strong and faithful in that little [Mt. 25:21, 23], in which he favored them by beginning to hew and polish them, he realizes that they will be much less strong in these greater trials. As a result he proceeds no further in purifying them and raising them from the dust of the earth through the toil of mortification. They are in need of greater constancy and fortitude than they showed.
We see then, that the first head was never conquered. 😦

I hope this is making some kind of sense to you, InLight.

Carole
 
I wrote:
If we carry a lot of worldly baggage with us at our deaths, we would actually not want to enter Heaven yet because we will not be ready for it–we would prefer to be cleaned up first.
To which Carole replied:
I believe that if someone is in the habit of going to daily mass frequently, and gaining plenaries for themselves and the souls in purgatory … the requirement of having no attachment to sin, not even venial sins, would indicate a very cleaned-up heart, no? Your example of the wedding guest being unfittingly dressed would not appear to be someone in the example I am presenting herein.
Jesus gave His Church the power to bind and to loose and said it would be ratified by Him in heaven. Therefore, if the Church has promulgated these indulgences, I cannot see any reason why they would not be held true upon our death. Let’s hope we are able to discern the meaning of “no attachment to sin, even venial sins.” Otherwise, these may be only partial indugences if we fool ourselves while retaining a pet sin.
Perhaps some clarification is needed on my part. I was speaking in a generic way about Purgatory, not meaning to point to anyone here or any examples Carole presented. In fact, I was paraphrasing a view of Purgatory once promulgated by C. S. Lewis about a man who shows up before the Pearly Gates all covered in slime and dressed in rags. Wouldn’t it just break his heart, Lewis asks, if God were to tell that man, “Enter into my joy!” knowing he is in no condition to do so? Wouldn’t the man say instead, “Please, Sir, but if you don’t mind I’d rather be cleaned up first.”

I did not mean to give the impression that I am in any way against the idea of gaining indulgences. What I do have trouble with is the idea that many people seem to have that they must do everything they can in order to escape suffering, to have a comfortable way out of making expiation for their sins. I find it hard to reconcile doing a certain act or number of acts as a substitute for a more sacrificial kind of penance, but hasten to add that this is just my opinion. I guess what it comes down to is what is in a person’s heart. If the desire is just to escape punishment that motivates one to gain an indulgence, plenary or otherwise, then that does not seem like a very good reason to me.

Why we do what we do, ideally, like going to daily mass and receiving the sacraments frequently, spending time in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, saying the Rosary and making various kinds of devotions, and yes, following the formulae for gaining indulgences, should, in the final analysis, be motivated by our love for God rather than for personal gain. Not, of course, that we should disdain any gifts God may want to give us in the process, but these should be secondary to seeking God for Himself, for His own sake. I think this is in fact what St John of the Cross is trying to tell us in his writings, and St Teresa of Jesus as well. If our concern is over gaining indulgences, then that is also where our focus will be. But if we seek the Kingdom of God first, then all else will be added. I hope this clarifies the point I was trying to make.
 
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Gabrielis:
Why we do what we do, ideally, like going to daily mass and receiving the sacraments frequently, spending time in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, saying the Rosary and making various kinds of devotions, and yes, following the formulae for gaining indulgences, should, in the final analysis, be motivated by our love for God rather than for personal gain. Not, of course, that we should disdain any gifts God may want to give us in the process, but these should be secondary to seeking God for Himself, for His own sake.
Thanks, Gabrielis, but I thought that’s what InLight and I agreed upon: Union without delay. :confused:

At the root of one’s motivation should be the same desire for our loved ones in Purgatory (union without delay) and the highest charitable desire to obtain suffrage for them as far as possible, through the Holy Mass we offer for them, and through our prayers and indulgences.

I rather think that God, knowing us down to the hairs of our head, will send purifying trials that will earn far more merit if embraced on earth in union with Christ, than could be accomplished in Purgatory, for He is anxious to crown us for bearing these. He beholds the heart that wishes no delay, and will grant this earnest petition in accordance with Ps. 37:4, “Take delight in the Lord, and He will grant you the desires of your heart.” Might not be the way we expect it, but He is all-wise, all-loving, all-merciful!

Carole
 
Originally by Joysong
My bible footnote on this scripture says:
Code:
The picture of the first beast is based on the 7th chapter of Daniel. This beast is the figure of the kingdoms of the world, kingdoms founded on passion and selfishness which is in every age are antagonistic to Christ and seek to oppress the servants of God.
Thank you so much, Carole.
Just get back home after church and activity with small group.

The above Bible footnote is more in line with what I was looking for.
Thanks for the help.
 
I ran into the following Bible verses this morning that are to do with contemplation.
I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of body I don’t know, God know), was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this person (whether in body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things which no one may utter. (2 Corinthians 12: 2-4)
St. Paul’s mystic experience gives us a glance of the union.
 
InLight,

Something suggested to me that perhaps you were doing your half-hour spiritual reading for a plenary. 😃 👍 The excellence of this is that we can see the entire context of scripture rather than the few verses chosen for a reading at Mass. If we don’t attend Mass or follow the readings for some reason the next day, much is lost in the way of context. I have gained so much from selecting an entire epistle for my half-hour.

St. Paul’s experience reminds me of St. Teresa’s teaching on rapture, or flight of the spirit, but in Paul’s day, there was no such terminology available with which to relate this in words. Aren’t we the lucky ones?

Carole
 
St. Paul’s experience reminds me of St. Teresa’s teaching on rapture, or flight of the spirit, but in Paul’s day, there was no such terminology available with which to relate this in words. Aren’t we the lucky ones?
Agreed 👍

Inlight, do you pray the Liturgy of the Hours? The Psalms are just chock-full of allusions to the “ordinary” contemplative experience. References like “enter into my rest” are just to numerous to count. Also, we can certainly get a good feel for the Dark Night experiences St. John of the Cross describes in many of the Psalms.

To me at least the LOTH has such a wonderful rhythm to it. Over time you just can’t help having the contemplative experience reinforced and internalized through daily reading of the Psalms. In time you’ll find you’re not reading about someone else’s relationship with God . . . you’re praying your own. 🙂

And of course there’s always the Song of Songs . . . 🙂

Dave
 
Agreed 👍

Inlight, do you pray the Liturgy of the Hours? The Psalms are just chock-full of allusions to the “ordinary” contemplative experience. References like “enter into my rest” are just to numerous to count. Also, we can certainly get a good feel for the Dark Night experiences St. John of the Cross describes in many of the Psalms.

To me at least the LOTH has such a wonderful rhythm to it. Over time you just can’t help having the contemplative experience reinforced and internalized through daily reading of the Psalms. In time you’ll find you’re not reading about someone else’s relationship with God . . . you’re praying your own. 🙂

And of course there’s always the Song of Songs . . . 🙂

Dave
Thanks, Dave. I only pray the night prayer and not regular enough.
But when I do pray the night prayer, it is very comforting.

The problem is I don’t think I can have the time for the LOTH.
Starting work at 8:00 and get off at 5:00, my job is pretty demanding. I just don’t see how to accommodate the requirement.
Whenever I have some time at work, I do my Rosaries and St. Bridget’s prayer. I have included these as my daily devotion for many years. I don’t have to do all four mysteries every day but I like to, and I usually do. From Joyful to Glorious, I walk through the entire life of Jesus. And St. Bridget’s prayer, on top of the Sorrowful mystery, help me experience the Lord’s Passion in detail. I plan to continue all these. So, how am I going to find time for morning prayers? mid day prayers? and afternoon prayers? Evening prayers, maybe.

I was thinking for this Lent and from then on, at least to pray the night prayer every night. But I do wish to get into LOTH. What you said is really attractive and inviting - “Over time you just can’t help having the contemplative experience reinforced and internalized through daily reading of the Psalms.”

Oh, I don’t know, I’ll have to bring this up with my SD in this coming Thursday’s session. At the same time, any suggestions?
 
I ran into the following Bible verses this morning that are to do with contemplation.

St. Paul’s mystic experience gives us a glance of the union.
What if one has been united because of intervention, then as the trials of the seven heads of the beast happen as an attack, in which the one who was once united gets their butt kicked because of lack of formation or lack of solid foundation. What are they to do? Do they start over on firmer ground? Can they ever expect to reach that union again or is that once powerful union to sustain them the rest of their lives. I’m reminded that the dove stayed with Jesus, but did not for others in the Jordan. Can that dove stay with us? Thanks, Tim
 
I’m afraid not, Tim. But for any who have been graced with God’s ineffable gift at one time or another, sometimes that’s all they receive and the memory of it is sufficient to last a lifetime. No doubt at all that God this leaves the soul hungering with a deep thirst that will not be satisfied this side of heaven. It depends upon what we do with that gift, and scripture reminds us that to whom more is given, more is expected.

Keep in mind that the experience of the prayer of union is often a gift that initiates the soul into an ever deeper realm of nearness to God. I think a good analogy would be an engagement ring – it is only received once, but the memory of that proposal is profoundly etched in memory. What one does after engagement, or marriage for that matter, depends on the strength of maintaining that union in its purity of love.

At any time, St. Teresa tells us, we are capable of falling, though in the latter mansions, mortal sin is unlikely. Yet she stressed in her writings that one can always turn back to God and He is there ready to receive us.
 
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