BAPTISM ...Is it now required?

[Thorwald]

In ACTS, we are told that the ‘eight’ (Noah’s family) were saved by water. From then forward, until the time that Christ & John the Baptist ‘came on the scene’, no further ‘saving by water’ was required.

We know that the disciples/apostles were instructed to perform baptisms after a person accepted Christ as their saviour, and began a new ‘Christian’ life. These disciples/apostles, were ‘annointed’ above ‘teachers’.

I can find no witten Word in the Bible, that gives authorization to ‘teachers’, for them to perform baptisms. Is it possible, that baptism was only required for the ‘first Christians’, and that we are in fact the ‘inheritors’ of their works, without us being required to also be baptized?

This may seem like a ‘dumb question’, but I am not so sure that it is.

 

[FickleFreckled]

What about Matthew 28:19-20? Jesus was giving a pretty big commission to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” It couldn’t be accomplished just by the original members of the early Church; it was meant to be ongoing.

 

[ricko]

What about Matthew 28:19-20? Jesus was giving a pretty big commission to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” It couldn’t be accomplished just by the original members of the early Church; it was meant to be ongoing.

Correct. Jesus did not establish a Church and commission the Apostles to baptize ALL nations just to have it end 50 years later. Why baptize just those that lived then and not us today. No, the teaching and baptizing was for all people of all times. It will continue until the end of the world.

 

[Thorwald]

What about Matthew 28:19-20? Jesus was giving a pretty big commission to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” It couldn’t be accomplished just by the original members of the early Church; it was meant to be ongoing.

Yes, I have thought of this, but I do not know, if there were ‘others’ that were ‘annointed’ (even today), in order to do this ‘job’. It does not necessarily mean, that God used (or is using) ‘common’ preachers’. Just a thought.

 

[judechild]

Yes, I have thought of this, but I do not know, if there were ‘others’ that were ‘annointed’ (even today), in order to do this ‘job’. It does not necessarily mean, that God used (or is using) ‘common’ preachers’. Just a thought.

Yes, which is maybe why the ordinary minister of Baptism is the priest or Bishop; the successors to the very people God commanded to go do the baptizing. It is true that anyone can Baptize in emergency situations… but those are extremes, not the norm.

 

[FickleFreckled]

I’m not sure what you mean by “common” preachers, Thorwald. If Christ made baptism necessary, it would be counterproductive to send out disciples to convert people if they couldn’t also baptize them, wouldn’t it?

 

[FickleFreckled]

To clarify, I meant “ordained” disciples, BTW.

 

[Thorwald]

Correct. Jesus did not establish a Church and commission the Apostles to baptize ALL nations just to have it end 50 years later. Why baptize just those that lived then and not us today. No, the teaching and baptizing was for all people of all times. It will continue until the end of the world.

Is it possible, that ‘making disciples of all nations’, can refer to the ‘annointment of individuals’ within each and every nation, rather than the whole nation, itself? We know, that more people on this earth deny Christ, than accept Him, and believe in Him. We also know, that many ‘Christians’ will face the response from Christ, “I know you not.”

(In addition to my original thread posting, Israel was ‘saved by water’ when being pursued by Pharoah’s army.)

I just have a hard time believing that all of those that perform baptisms, are actually following God’s Word (ie. righteously), nor are they all following proper doctrines or carrying out proper baptisms. They can’t all be correct. There are all kinds of differences
in ‘baptism’ ceremonies, found among the different Christian faiths.

 

[judechild]

I just have a hard time believing that all of those that perform baptisms, are actually following God’s Word (ie. righteously), nor are they all following proper doctrines or carrying out proper baptisms. They can’t all be correct. There are all kinds of differences
in ‘baptism’ ceremonies, found among the different Christian faiths.

Correct again. The Catholic Church recognizes all Baptisms that are performed using water and the Trinitarian formula: “I Baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” This is what Jesus commanded, so we do it!

 

[Thorwald]

I’m not sure what you mean by “common” preachers, Thorwald. If Christ made baptism necessary, it would be counterproductive to send out disciples to convert people if they couldn’t also baptize them, wouldn’t it?

I am trying to tie ‘baptism’ to the hierarchy that Christ ‘created’. We are told that Apostles are higher than Prophets, and that Prophets are higher than ‘teachers’ (and those with special gifts). Christ’s instructions were given to the Apostles and Disciples. These people were ‘annointed above teachers’. We have made ‘teachers’ equal to being annointed Apostles, have we not? Just a question.

 

[judechild]

Is it possible, that ‘making disciples of all nations’, can refer to the ‘annointment of individuals’ within each and every nation, rather than the whole nation, itself? We know, that more people on this earth deny Christ, than accept Him, and believe in Him. We also know, that many ‘Christians’ will face the response from Christ, “I know you not.”

I suppose, but what does that mean? If you see “annointment of individuals” as the Apostles going and baptizing individuals, then yes of course. You can’t baptize a nation, only a person.

 

[Thorwald]

Yes, which is maybe why the ordinary minister of Baptism is the priest or Bishop; the successors to the very people God commanded to go do the baptizing. It is true that anyone can Baptize in emergency situations… but those are extremes, not the norm.

Is ‘anyone’ found within the hierarchy of the church, ‘annointed by God’, or are they ‘annointed by man’? In other words, the hierarchy of the church consists of ‘promoted teachers’. This does not mean, that God has annointed them in His eyes, to HIs ‘Apostle level’. We may only think that He has.

 

[FickleFreckled]

Thorwald,
In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there is apostolic succession; the line of ordained bishops going all the way back the the time of the early Church. They in turn ordain the priests and deacons. The ordination, or anointing, is therefore valid in God’s eyes, and an expression of His Will. I don’t know how you’d answer that question for the various Protestant denominations’ ministers and preachers.

 

[Carlan]

Is ‘anyone’ found within the hierarchy of the church, ‘annointed by God’, or are they ‘annointed by man’? In other words, the hierarchy of the church consists of ‘promoted teachers’. This does not mean, that God has annointed them in His eyes, to HIs ‘Apostle level’. We may only think that He has.

Thorwald , I think your question has been answered.:shrug:Carlan

 

[Christ_Imitator]

Baptism symbolizes the re-birth that you go through when you have accepted Jesus into your life/become “saved”.
It is a public profession of your faith. Hopefully meaning that you are going to change your lifestyle, and follow the teachings in the Bible.

Being dunked in water or having water sprinkled onto your head will not save you or forgive you of your sins!
God, through his son Jesus Christ died to pay for that sin.

Baptism=symbolism (born into our new Heavenly family) But will not get us into Heaven.

 

[Carlan]

Baptism symbolizes the re-birth that you go through when you have accepted Jesus into your life/become “saved”.
It is a public profession of your faith. Hopefully meaning that you are going to change your lifestyle, and follow the teachings in the Bible.

Being dunked in water or having water sprinkled onto your head will not save you or forgive you of your sins!
God, through his son Jesus Christ died to pay for that sin.

Baptism=symbolism (born into our new Heavenly family) But will not get us into Heaven.

Christ imitator, Catholic doctrine:Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord’s will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism. Carlan
Baptism cleanses us from original sin, the sin of adam. You know that CI.

 

[Thorwald]

Thorwald,
In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there is apostolic succession; the line of ordained bishops going all the way back the the time of the early Church. They in turn ordain the priests and deacons. The ordination, or anointing, is therefore valid in God’s eyes, and an expression of His Will. I don’t know how you’d answer that question for the various Protestant denominations’ ministers and preachers.

We are all aware of the church hierarchy. This is also mentioned in the scriptures. However, it is not mentioned in the scriptures, that Bishops/Deacons/Teachers are equal to the annointed Apostles. Once the main churches (in all countries) were established through the ‘annointed apostles’, were more ‘annointed apostles/disciples’ required? If we have churches, and the written Word of God, why would it be necessary to continue ‘annointing’ apostles. Would it now not suffice to have trained teachers, teaching the Word of God, as He has witnessed? Has the use of baptismal water not now completed its ‘job’? Did all of the descendants of Noah and his family have to be ‘saved by water’? Did the descendants of the Israelites that were saved by water from the pharoah’s army have to also be saved by water?

I don’t know the answer, and this is why I ask the question. I know what the Christian religions believe, but are they correct?

 

[Christ_Imitator]

Baptism cleanses us from original sin,

Sorry, not true. The water used to Baptise us is not magical, nor does it change us,
God through his holy spirit, works inside of us to change us. That “holy cerimony” doesn’t do anything special.

Because, I am pretty certain that if someone dies that was a devout follower of the Lord and the Holy Bible, but was not baptised, I’m pretty sure they still go to Heaven.

 

[Thorwald]

Christ imitator, Catholic doctrine:Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord’s will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism. Carlan
Baptism cleanses us from original sin, the sin of adam. You know that CI.

Baptism could just as well be part of the ‘annointment’ process, for new disciples/apostles, only. We have to remember John the Baptist’s own words, “I baptize with water. There is one that comes after me (He states that he is not even worthy of tying His shoe laces/sandals.), that baptizes with the Holy Spirit.”

The question I have, “If you believe in Christ, seek forgiveness, and follow His Word, and are not baptized, will you become saved?”

 

[FickleFreckled]

Thorwald,
That would depend on whether the person believed it was necesary and wanted to be baptized or would want to if he believed it was necessary. Only God knows the heart. Baptism of desire. But you’re probably aware of that too. It doesn’t make baptism less necessary, it simply allows for the mercy of God.