Baptism- it is not as important as you make it out?

[guanophore]

Well said! Fortunately, we do not have to read it simply with our “low-context” 21st C glasses on. People do know a lot about the culture back then, historians and scholars are continually delving deeply into the rich, “high-context” culture, and we can learn from this. Does that make their findings inspired? No, but they can still be accurate!

Something has definitely gone wrong! Not the least would be people ignoring the warning in Colossians 2:8.

But lets look at your options:

Is that all? Really, I can think of a few more examples.

How about people simply do not listen to the Holy Spirit? Or people without the Spirit are trying to read and teach it? Or the context is important, and we are trying to read without it? Or simply, people are fallen, and want to interpret things how they like?

I do not think that your two options are the “only” ones.

(I think you meant “agree” not “disagree”, right? )

Baptism. Well, there’s a whole other thread of talk, but let me say - perhaps it is not as important as you make it out? Is it as important as acknowledging Jesus as our Lord? As accepting Him as God? As following him?

Don’t you think accepting Him as Lord, and following HIm includes keeping His commandments? Why do you spurn the commandment of baptism?

 

[Pax]

The sacrament of baptism is also known as the sacrament of faith. Scripture says many things about baptism and all of them show its importance. Reducing baptism to nothing more than a symbol and a mere ordinance goes against scripture and the constant teaching of the Church since the time of the apostles.

 

[NotWorthy]

Faith in Christ’s words without Baptism is like trying to start a car without the keys.

You can believe that the car will start on its own all you want, but you still need the keys.

If Christ says to be baptized, then I’m into it.

 

[Church_Militant]

Many things that n-C churches tell me are not “core” beliefs I find to be Biblically stated otherwise.

Baptism just for an example. Many of the modern post-reformation step children have relegated this to some sort peripheral nicety that we “should” do but it’s not necessary for one’s salvation. Yet I find an awful lot of New Testament scripture that indicates otherwise.

Examples:

Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

Acts 2:38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1st Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There are others, but I just want to get a scriptural basis for this discussion laid.

Being Catholic I offer statements from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

**537 **

Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father’s beloved son in the Son and “walk in newness of life”:

   Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him.

Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father’s voice, we become sons of God.

And,

**1257 **

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” *God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.*I cannot understand how people who tell me that everything that we believe must come from the Bible can then turn around and assert that Baptism is not necessary for salvation. The New Testament certainly seems Catholic in its teaching.

 

[Robo40]

Hey Church Militant…I heard you on Catholic answers a while ago. I thought it was the coolest thing. Someone I see on the forums I got to hear!
I had this discussion with my Grandfather about Baptism. He is claiming that it is Baptism of the Holy Spirit that is important. Not with water. I believe the Church teaching, But
This website claims that the early church misrepresent the translation of the words Babtismo, baptisma, and bapto… Can anyone shine a light on this? home.clara.net/arlev/baptism.htm

Rob

 

[guanophore]

Hey Church Militant…I heard you on Catholic answers a while ago. I thought it was the coolest thing. Someone I see on the forums I got to hear!
I had this discussion with my Grandfather about Baptism. He is claiming that it is Baptism of the Holy Spirit that is important. Not with water. I believe the Church teaching, But
This website claims that the early church misrepresent the translation of the words Babtismo, baptisma, and bapto… Can anyone shine a light on this? home.clara.net/arlev/baptism.htm

Rob

It is not appropriate to separate the two.

Ezek 36:24-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

Baptizo means to “dip into water”. the church also allows pouring, and we use sprinkling as a reminder at Easter. We also use the Holy Water Font to remember.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer in Christ at baptism. there are some that have not experienced the release of the H.S. in their faith practice, however.

 

[mdcpensive1]

It is not appropriate to separate the two.

Ezek 36:24-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

There is another passage in Leviticus 14:49-53 that adds additional information to the passage you quoted:

49 And for the cleansing of the house he shall take two small birds, with cedarwood and scarlet stuff and hyssop, 50 and shall kill one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water, 51 and shall take the cedarwood and the hyssop and the scarlet stuff, along with the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the bird that was killed and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times. 52 Thus he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet stuff; 53 and he shall let the living bird go out of the city into the open field; so he shall make atonement for the house, and it shall be clean."

These two passages give a strong message to the importance of Baptism as it was pre-figured in the OT and how Christ uses it in the NT.
mdcpensive1

 

[cpayne]

I think one problem is reading with preconceptions. As a Protestant, I thought baptism was “symbolically” pretty important, but nothing to get too excited over. Reading the Scriptures now with Catholic eyes, I think to myself, “Were all these verses in there before?” Jesus, John, Paul, Peter----they all connect salvation and water baptism more or less explicitly. But I read all the exact same passages before, and they didn’t “register.”

 

[mdcpensive1]

I think one problem is reading with preconceptions. As a Protestant, I thought baptism was “symbolically” pretty important, but nothing to get too excited over. Reading the Scriptures now with Catholic eyes, I think to myself, “Were all these verses in there before?” Jesus, John, Paul, Peter----they all connect salvation and water baptism more or less explicitly. But I read all the exact same passages before, and they didn’t “register.”

You are not the only one. I can re-read something after a long time and I wonder why it makes more sense now than before. I guess it is the fact that the more knowledge we have and with the help of the Spirit, we can associate more together to move toward the truth Christ wants us to have.

mdcpensive1