R
- Status
B
believers
Guest
Then laughably prove me wrong.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
Is this the Biblical mandate? OR, rather, are we saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and His work alive in us?
Let’s see. . .
Here, salvation seems to be a result of a response to God’s grace through faith and obedience.
Christ does not imply, as is your tradition, that whoever believes and is baptized is already saved.
Let’s look further. . .
Here, salvation seems to be a result of a response to God’s grace through perseverance in faith and obedience.
Christ does not imply, as is your tradition, that he who stands firm to the end is already saved.
Christ offers us His saving work on the Cross as atonement for our sins. This is a gift that no man deserves or can earn. However, Christ, then, turns to us to respond to this gift. St. Paul explains:
Through grace, Christ Himself makes us participants in His own divine life, or as St. Peter writes, “sharers in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).
In this way, we understand St. Peter’s previous letter which asks:
The just are saved “only with difficulty.” The difficulty is not a result of salvation, but a real participation in the Cross of Jesus Christ. Without the Cross, there is no salvation.
This suffering. . .this difficulty. . . this obedience to God’s sovereign will, is exactly what St. Paul speaks of when he instructs the Church at Philippi:
Thus, obedience in Baptism becomes, as Christ instituted and instructs, a work of grace, begotten of God, which as St. Peter states “now saves you.”
God saves. Christ is our Savior. All glory be to God!
B
believers
Guest
It’s becomes dogma when it is believed and taught. My guess is a vast amount of Roman Catholics believe in Limbo.
V
VociMike
Guest
I think we’re surrounding him.
V
VociMike
Guest
Guess all you want. Limbo was never dogma, always speculation.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
I completely agree with this. I was baptised June 3rd of this year, as an obedient child of God I did as commanded…Had I not I still would have seen eternal life upon my earthly demise.
V
VociMike
Guest
Sure about that?
John 3:36: “…he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”
B
bilop
Guest
C
Crumpy
Guest
Yikes, ten pages of posts.
I don’t think that Jesus was shooting blanks when he told his apostles and disciples to teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Obviously, martin, you must be a non-Catholic, who delights in arguing. Why would there be so many clear indications for baptism (specifically sacramental baptism in the Catholic Church) if it was really misleading as you seem to claim?
Catholics also believe in a baptism of desire and a baptism of fire, when a sacramental baptism is not available. The Church recognizes Baptism as essential, but that there are circumstances when it cannot be performed ritually. The Church has also rolled back it’s centuries-old theology on Limbo, saying that it is by God’s providence to decide the fate of babies who die before Baptism can be administered.
The Catholic Church is not so rigid as you would it to be and as you would like to portray it.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Jane…
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
whoever does not get baptized will not be saved seems to be missing…
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
whoever does not get baptized will not be saved seems to be missing…
R
RobNY
Guest
VociMike and I are both interested:
Is faith necessary for salvation, yes or no?
-Rob
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Me either, this is about the necessity.
Its not clear like you say, I’ve shown this…Identify spiritual baptism aside from water baptism…
Either its necessary or its not, ya can’t have it both ways. If “by desire” is effective then clearly the sacrement of baptism is not necessary.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
According to your theology,
If Faith is necessary for salvation, then all babies go to hell, otherwise faith is not necessary. IT IS that simple.
Peace!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
YES!
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Your guess would be accurate. Your mis-representing your first statement though. The Church has never taught that all un-baptized babies go to Limbo. The Church has speculated, but always claimed that it was speculation. Period.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Not true, I’m getting the scripture for you bear with me… It has to do with the faith of the parents.
R
RobNY
Guest
But babies don’t/can’t have faith. As you said myfavoritmartin (switching faith for baptism):
-Rob
V
VociMike
Guest
What you don’t understand is that Mk 16:16 supports the Catholic position! Baptism is normative. Be baptized and believe and you will be saved. It is required when possible, which is to say that if one consciously rejects baptism then they have rejected God’s gift of salvation. But in cases where baptism (by water) is not possible, God (and the Church) still hold out the possibility of salvation.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
This is why I love you so much, Simon. Catholics have to defend infant baptism, justifying it with the faith of the parents. Yet you come and use this same Scripture against us. This must be fun!
- Status