Baptism, non-essential!

[JaneFrances]

Scripture tells us what faith is…These aren’t capable of doing this.

Likewise, Scripture tells us what Baptism is. Scripture tells us that Baptism was instituted and commanded by Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19). Baptism is effective to bring us into Christ’s new Life (Romans 6:4). Baptism is an act of necessary obedience for all Christians (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Hebrews 5:9). Baptism identifies us with Christ (Galatians 3:27). Baptism saves, not as a washing of dirt from the body, but through the washing of the stain of sin (1 Peter 3:21).

There are those people, who through no fault of their own, are unable to seek and/or recieve Baptism. This is exactly the rubric you describe as the possible exception clause for Faith. Faith is necessary, except when it is impossible. Baptism is necessary, except when it is impossible.

Therefore we look to the character and justice of our Creator…

Likewise, we, as Christians, recognize the Mercy of God who may certainly save those who, through no fault of their own, can not fulfill in action the desired obedience of their heart to be baptised into Christ.

Truly i’ll say i do not guarantee that an infant or a dd adult are saved, but based on our Lord character and justice I’d argue they are

Again, you are making the case for Baptism. Knowing the Lord, those who love Him would ordinarily do all they can to obey him. He commands Baptism. Yet, when Baptism is practically impossible, we rely on Him for Mercy.

None the less show me where scripture says if your not baptized your not saved…

Scripture does not make the particular statement you required it to make. Yet, the Church Fathers and historical Christians throughout Christendom recognized the necessity of Baptism towards salvation. That you reject Baptism as an essential and effective obedience is part of your faith tradition and not a function of a direct Scriptural mandate.

But to prove the point you are challenging, I would urge you to take a wider focus. Scripture is very clear about the necessity of obedience:

**He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him (Hebrews 5:9)**

We know, through Scripture, that Baptism is commanded by Christ Himself. To be Baptized is to be obedient to the Gospel. Thus, one may reasonably deduce that if one willfully rejects Baptism, it is an act disobedience, for which there will be, as St. Paul teaches, punishment and everlasting destruction.

 

[JaneFrances]

And Jane BTW please forgive me for calling into question your salvation, you’ve stated Jesus is the way and the truth in the past, and I know from my view you live out this truth…

You are certainly forgiven. In the future, please be more careful when making judgments regarding the salvation of others as it doesn’t benefit the purpose of Christian discourse and it doesn’t serve as a good example for those who look to us as examples Christ’s love and fellowship.

And even if I never stated “Jesus is the way and the truth” in the past on these forums, it is hardly within the bounds of Christian charity to assume otherwise.

 

[NonDenom]

Baptism is a covenant sign and is not essential for salvation, in fact I think satan licks his chops at this verse (acts 2:38) in that many people think that being baptized is the necessary factor in salvation.

Hi myfavoritemattin
You are right about satan licking his chops, but it’s not about what you think he’s licking them for. When I ask my Girlfriend to marry me, we were still separate people, not together as one in marriage. We still needed to exchange vows and put the rings on, it was after that, that we were married in the eyes of God. The same is true for us as Christians, we make the decision to become Christians, ask Jesus to be our Savior, repent and then be Baptized, just like the Scripture you mentioned in Act 2:38. I believe it is then that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s kinda interesting in light of what I have said that we are called the BRIDE of Christ, don’t ya think?

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi myfavoritemattin
You are right about satan licking his chops, but it’s not about what you think he’s licking them for. When I ask my Girlfriend to marry me, we were still separate people, not together as one in marriage. We still needed to exchange vows and put the rings on, it was after that, that we were married in the eyes of God. The same is true for us as Christians, we make the decision to become Christians, ask Jesus to be our Savior, repent and then be Baptized, just like the Scripture you mentioned in Act 2:38. I believe it is then that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s kinda interesting in light of what I have said that we are called the BRIDE of Christ, don’t ya think?

That’s a really great analogy, especially as it pertains to obedience.

Thus far in this thread, myfavoritmartin has maintained that obedience is a non-essential, thus categorizing Baptism as non-essential.

Here’s a cut and pasted contextual synopsis of this particular line of discussion:

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin

I agree, but keeping commandments has nothing to do with eternity.

Originally Posted by JaneFrances

Is obedience essential?

If the answer is yes, and God instructs Baptism, then, it’s essential.

Whether you have faith prior to your Baptism or flowing from the graces of the Sacrament as a movement of the Spirit, it’s still essential. It’s a matter of obedience and God’s promise that He, ALONE, is “the source of salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

If the answer is no, then, you may have an arguement. You still haven’t made your case.

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin

Obedience is part of the desired will of God but not part of His perfect will.
?question, Have you emersed yourself into Psalms to any indepth degree?
God instructs us to keep His commandments but mans nature having no good part can never compare to the sinless life of Christ, and will always fall short. Does that mean we all go to hell?

Originally Posted by JaneFrances

The author of the letter to the Hebrews tells us:

Quote:
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him Hebrews 5:7-9

That means, by the way, that obedience IS in fact part of God’s perfect will. Through reverent submission and obedience, our Lord Jesus Christ, “became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin

Faith is essential, obedience from that faith is natural.

Originally Posted by JaneFrances

The Catholic position of sanctification would offer that obedience is super-natural, as we can neither have faith nor obedience without God’s intiating grace. It is not of ourselves, lest we boast in our own accomplishments. Our faith and obedience, both equally essential and complimentary, are our response to His first gift and are His work in us.

Do you agree that obedience, as an act of grace, is necessary towards salvation?

 

[defenderoftruth]

Here’s some good early church quotes on infant baptism since the baptists again are trying to sola scriptura themselves. Sorry guys the same guys that believed in infant baptism canonized your bible!! (minus the parts ripped out by protestants that hate the apocrypha-ie old testament books)

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.-Apostolic Tradition 21:16 215A.D.

The church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of sin, which must be washed away through the water and the Spirit.-Origen 248A.D. Commentaries on Romans 5:9

… For He came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.-Irenaeus 180A.D. Against Heresies 2:22

But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man-Cyprian 250A.D. Treatise on the lapsed

For “do not thou delay to turn unto the Lord, for thou knowest not what the next day will bring forth.”(Ecclus. 5:7)Do you also baptize your infants, and bring them up in the nurture and admonition of God. For says He: “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not”.-Apostolic constitutions 6:3 380A.D.

 

[Church_Militant]

Many things that n-C churches tell me are not “core” beliefs I find to be Biblically stated otherwise.

Baptism just for an example. Many of the modern post-reformation step children have relegated this to some sort peripheral nicety that we “should” do but it’s not necessary for one’s salvation. Yet I find an awful lot of New Testament scripture that indicates otherwise.

Examples:

Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

Acts 2:38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Romans 6:3: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1st Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There are others, but I just want to get a scriptural basis for this discussion laid.

Being Catholic I offer statements from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

537 Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father’s beloved son in the Son and “walk in newness of life”:Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him.
Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father’s voice, we become sons of God.

And,

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Is Baptism a “core teaching” and necessary for salvation?

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Why would Our Lord command us to make disciples and baptize them and teach them to observe he commanded us if it wasn’t necessary?

Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
He who believes and is baptized…

Acts 2:38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Verse 38 plainly says that they must repent “and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”. Verse 39 then extends it to all future believers. Verse 41 shows that the crowd responded in obedience, so apparently they took that baptism very seriously…as required. The apostles certainly did.

Remember also,

Acts 22:16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
This in no way indicates a symbolism, but is an expression of a spiritual reality. Whatever happened to “God says it, I believe it, That settles it”?

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Why include it here among the essentials of salvation?

1st Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Peter, the speaker in the Acts 2 passage above, outright says that baptism saves you…

If one takes the Bible literally I have to continue to wonder how this sacrament can be so marginalized.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi Michael as I stated I won’t be on much this weekend, but each of these scripture passages have been addressed in this thread.
Peace upon you my friend!
Simon

 

[FrankLawrence]

Baptism is a covenant sign and is not essential for salvation, in fact I think satan licks his chops at this verse (acts 2:38) in that many people think that being baptized is the necessary factor in salvation.

Who died and made you Pope?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Who died and made you Pope?

The same person who rose and ascended to heaven, He made it possible for me to read and understand on my own what He wanted me to understand unto salvation.
Did you notice the part I said** “I think”**

 

[Love_is_Patient]

The same person who rose and ascended to heaven, He made it possible for me to read and understand on my own what He wanted me to understand unto salvation.
Did you notice the part I said** “I think”**

Here’s your flaw, though: what about the millions of people throughout the past 2,000 who either a) couldn’t read or b) didn’t have the leisure time necessary to figure it all out on their own. That’s why we have a Church–to guide us, all of us, regardless of our personal intelligence, reading ability or leisure time.

Plus, me personally, I’d be too afraid that I’d be creating the Church of Me to rely on my own understanding. I’d rather rely on the collective wisdom of 2,000 years of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The same person who rose and ascended to heaven, He made it possible for me to read and understand on my own what He wanted me to understand unto salvation.

Did you notice the part I said** “I think”**

MFM;

Well, heck, when most folks say “I think” it usually precedes omething they accept as fact or as something they believe occurs or has occurred.

I guess with you it means: ESCAPE CLAUSE.

Hmmmmm

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

MFM;

Well, heck, when most folks say “I think” it usually precedes omething they accept as fact or as something they believe occurs or has occurred.

I guess with you it means: ESCAPE CLAUSE.

Hmmmmm

Robert

BUMP!

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi Michael as I stated I won’t be on much this weekend, but each of these scripture passages have been addressed in this thread.
Peace upon you my friend!
Simon

I have no doubt. I’ll read it over, but I find that this is a restatement of the case and includes the same points that I made to you privately.

My issue is why do most n-Cs marginalize this sacrament in contravention to the plain Word of God, while professing to accept only the Bible as their authority?

That just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

If Peter preached the Gospel as including baptism (“for the forgiveness of your sins”), and the Paul is flat out told to “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’”(Acts 22:16: ), then how can these passages be validly ignored if one is to have a scriptural belief concerning baptism? I have yet to see any n-Cs offer their case that doesn’t ignore or minimize these passages in order to then teach that baptism is optional.

IMO, telling me that “a real Christian will want to be baptized” just doesn’t cut it because the New Testament speaks of it as much more vital.

Furthermore, in view of the Great Commission, (something that I see n-Cs flock to profess to believe and practice!) which plainly says, “19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” I have to look at you and go, “Why did Jesus make such a big deal out of it by way of his virtual last command to us, if it’s not a vital part of salvation?!”

The Catholic Church has always taught that baptism is vital to salvation and I see that as far more scriptural than the n-C teaching.

 

[Church_Militant]

Who died and made you Pope?

Stuff like this gets us nowhere.

The same person who rose and ascended to heaven, He made it possible for me to read and understand on my own what He wanted me to understand unto salvation.

Did you notice the part I said** “I think”**I am counting upon you using that God given ability under the influence of the Holy Spirit to discern the truth of my arguments then. It is my every prayer for you especially, and all those I share my faith with.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, heck, when most folks say “I think” it usually precedes something they accept as fact or as something they believe occurs or has occurred.

I guess with you it means: ESCAPE CLAUSE.

Hmmmmm

Robert

No…actually, that generally means that that is what they believe at that given time, but that is subject to change as new evidence is presented. It’s honest.

A person may say to me, “I think the Catholic Church is wrong.” and I am not offended even though I think he’s dead wrong, and will then (if he’s a reasonable person) enter into discussion with him to offer evidence for him to reconsider his opinion, and I will consider his as well, the object being that we both unflinchingly pursue truth.

 

[dranzal]

We were having a Bible study group during which an interesting question came up.

IF

1. Given: Baptism is necessary for salvation. We baptise our infants. There is almost a feeling of urgency to baptise the newborns within a few weeks of birth among some Catholics.
2. Baptism is a sacrament of initiation. The parents of the infant must be planning to raise the child Catholic. The infant is not yet catechised, but will be.
3. The infants are otherwise free from sin (too young) but still baptism is necessary.

THEN apply this logic to adult converts…

They must go through some time of RCIA before baptism. Why? I understand that they should for Eucharist and, perhaps, Confirmation. But if we truly believe that baptism is necessary for Salvation, you’d think we would offer it to any adult who approaches the church for conversion. Instead, we make them wait until they go through RCIA. During that time, they may have a fatal illness, car accident, etc. Again, it makes sense to require catechesis prior to Eucharist, but why not offer baptism right away?

 

[NotWorthy]

They must go through some time of RCIA before baptism. Why? I understand that they should for Eucharist and, perhaps, Confirmation. But if we truly believe that baptism is necessary for Salvation, you’d think we would offer it to any adult who approaches the church for conversion. Instead, we make them wait until they go through RCIA. During that time, they may have a fatal illness, car accident, etc. Again, it makes sense to require catechesis prior to Eucharist, but why not offer baptism right away?

Evidently one could then go through the motions, get baptized, and while not catechized, simply drift away into spiritual oblivion. I hear this often happens with altar calls.

The Church in Her infancy, was already doing this as far back as the 2nd century if not earlier.

As you know, if the only thing one preventing one from baptism is the bureaucracy of the Church, and one dies, then they would have received a baptism of desire, thus preventing their lack of water baptism from affecting their salvation.