Baptism not by immersion?

[meaprilrain]

2 Kings 5:14
So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, .

You have taken this out of context… the chapter is about a leper being healed, not baptism.
:10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
His flesh will be healed and back on his bones, leporasy will be gone ! chapter 5 is about lepers.

Numbers 19:18
'A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and .

This also has nothing to do with baptism, and further even for the purification of the things listed it requires RUNNING WATER !!! um a river…
17 And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:

Matt. 3:11; -John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus will baptize (“baptisei”) with the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, “baptisei” refers to a “pouring” out over the head. …in the form of pouring out His Spirit upon the head, not immersing the person.

The holy spirit is the holy ghost, it is not baptism, it is what comes AFTER baptism. John is able to baptize but Jesus must confirm the holy spirit upon !! “pouring out over the head” has NOTHING to do with water .

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - Jesus also talks about His baptism of blood, which was shed and sprinkled in His passion. But this baptism does not (and cannot) mean immersion.

These are out of context,
These are about a woman who desires her 2 sons sit on the right and left hand side of God. Jesus says that is not his gift to give. but that they can share in the cup he drinks from and the BAPTISM that HE IS BAPTISED IN ! meaning they can share in salvation and eternal life !

Acts 9:18; 22:16 - Paul is baptized while standing up in the house of Judas. There is no hot tub or swimming pool for immersion. This demonstrates that Paul was sprinkled.

I already addressed this, just because he arose does not mean he was baptized right there. If I say rise and lets eat, that doesn’t mean everyone rises and we eat in the living room ? It means we rise and move to the kitchen to sit and dine ? Thus Paul arose … and obviously went where the water was to be baptized . It just means he got up to be baptized.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized in the house of Cornelius, even though hot tubs and swimming pools were not part of homes. Those in the house had to be sprinkled.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

This says nothing of being baptized in a house ? come on

Acts 16:33 - the baptism of the jailer and his household appears to be in the house, so immersion is not possible.
23 And when they had laid many stripes (whippings ) upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:
24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks. (Am I to believe that in his house he had an inner prison and stocks to hold their feet ?)
25 ¶ And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed.
(This is not someones house ? it is a prison… with stocks, and doors to cells ??)
27 And the keeper of the prison ( not the Lord of his house ?)awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, (of the prison)and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ( wounds or whippings ); and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. (This implies he took them somewhere… because next he says and WHEN he brought them INTO HIS HOUSE like it was something after the baptism…)
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

He brought them OUT of the prison and after baptism brought them INTO his house !! his family doesn’t really live in a jail where there are doors to cells and stocks for feet etc. and he wasn’t baptized right there since he refers to WHEN he brought them into his house as being AFTER the baptism.

Acts 2:17,18,33 - the pouring of water is like the “pouring” out of the Holy Spirit.

Pouring of water Is NOT mentioned in this passage, neither is it about baptism ? I don’t think you even looked at these scriptures ?

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour out water on the thirsty land

Do you understand my question was about baptism ? this has nothing to do with baptism ??

 

[meaprilrain]

And, they are experts, because …

never said they were, which is why I am here quizzing YOU !! :extrahappy:

No, immersion is the whole body, fully under the water - three times - once for each of the three Persons of the Trinity.

right, this is why I said the 3 time thing could lead to choking !!

 

[meaprilrain]

St. Jerome** – (340-420 AD) **

1. L. Thirsty men in their dreams eagerly gulp down the water of the stream, and the more they drink the thirstier they are. In the same way you appear to me to have searched everywhere for arguments against the point I raised, and yet to be as far as ever from being satisfied. Don’t you know that the laying on of hands after baptism and then the invocation of the Holy Spirit is a custom of the Churches? Do you demand Scripture proof? You may find it in the Acts of the Apostles. And even if it did not rest on the authority of Scripture the consensus of the whole world in this respect would have the force of a command. For many other observances of the Churches, which are due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law, as for instance(1) the practice of dipping the head three times in the layer, and then, after leaving the water, of(2) tasting mingled milk and honey in representation of infancy;(3) and, again, the practices of standing up in worship on the Lord’s day, and ceasing from fasting every Pentecost; and there are many other unwritten practices which have won their place through reason and custom. So you see we follow the practice of the Church, although it may be clear that a person was baptized before the Spirit was invoked. (Dialogue against the Luciferians)

What ever that means?

Chuck

I am kind of lost at what you are referring to ? Since I believe in baptism, the laying on of hands to give the gift of the holy spirit . And these are in scripture . sorry maybe I lost a post somewhere ?

 

[meaprilrain]

As a reminder, can anyone tell me what Ezekiel was talking about if it wasn’t Baptism?

Um I dont think I said it wasn’t about baptism, just that is was about sprinkling and my question was about immersion? I do agree it was prophecy about future baptism, however I was looking for immersion scrips and this one was sprinkling.

 

[meaprilrain]

You are missing the entire significance of the Jordan River with this question. John was making the people of Jerusalem cross over to the other side of the Jordan and than re-cross it to get back to Jerusalem. This was symbolizing a re-entering into the Promised Land. And the Jordan River served, not only as a crossing point into the Promised Land, but as a symbol of purifying, as in Namaan, who Elijah cured of leprosy.

where would I find this passage about them crossing the Jordan and back again ?

And you glossed over Ezekiel’s quote. What was Ezekiel talking about when he was putting a pen to the Word of God? Could it be anything other than Baptism?

I don’t think so, I never disagreed this was about baptism, but I was looking for immersion and I stated this was about sprinkling ?

The whole point I wanted was for someone to tell me the church does immerisons first and by necessity the other choices second ? After so much scripture debate trying to prove to me that immersion was not in the scriptures and not doctrine, MercyGate gave the answer I needed that YES the church does immersions and trys to do them first with the other choices second as needed upon circumstances !

 

[meaprilrain]

I appreciate everyones answers and replies !! I have another baptism question but it is about authority so to not confuse I will start a new thread ! Thank you so much, I have learned much scripture and doctrine today !! :yup:

Peace be with you all and God Bless !!

 

[NotWorthy]

The whole point I wanted was for someone to tell me the church does immerisons first and by necessity the other choices second ? After so much scripture debate trying to prove to me that immersion was not in the scriptures and not doctrine, MercyGate gave the answer I needed that YES the church does immersions and trys to do them first with the other choices second as needed upon circumstances !

Then I may have misunderstood your question, of which I am sorry. Its just that so many times Catholics are chastised for doing anything other than immersion, that I may have assumed that this was your intention.

But as to two other points:

Naaman’s cleansing of his leprosy is all about Baptism. Leprosy represented sin in the OT and the cleansing of his leprosy in the Jordan pre-figured what Baptism does for us.

I’ll look into where I got my information on John’s location. If I recall correctly, it says he was preaching in the wilderness at the Jordan. The wilderness, by the OT standards, was the east side of the Jordan (Jerusalem was west of the river). Those coming from Jerusalem would have to cross over to hear his words.

 

[mercygate]

It would depend on how deep the water was. If it was only ankle deep or knee deep, then they would still pour the water over the person’s head, right? Since immersion would be inconvenient. But if the water was quite deep, then they could do immersion - but it couldn’t be too deep, or else the person would be carried away in the current when you duck them under.

Actually, in the holy land, notwithstanding the lakes of Gallileee and Hulda up north, rivers and bodies of water are pretty scarce, often not much more than wadis. The Jordan can be a mile wide in the spring and only 20 feet wide and very shallow in the dry season. Providing water to the city of Jerusalem was an obsession in Christ’s day because it was used not only for drinking and bathing but for ritual ablutions. (hmm?) Places like the pool of Siloam and the Bethesda pool were enormously important for their practical and cultural significance.

If by the first century you have a written record that baptism is valid by pouring, then where pouring is practical, it is reasonable: especially for infants (although our Orthodox brethren take that baby, plug its ears with the thumb and pinkie finger, and cover its nose and mouth with the hand and dunk him in a large basin of warm water).

I don’t know meaprilrain’s position on the efficacy of the sacrament, but it has always struck me as strange that people who do not believe that baptism actually DOES anything to you can be so insistent that it be done “correctly” according to their personal view.

I suppose the equivalent of this with respect to another sacrament would be people insisting that we chop up all the confessional boxes and return to the practice of confessing our sins openly in the presence of the entire congregation because that was the way they did it in the first century.

 

[mercygate]

You only do Baptisms once a year ? so someone that decided to join the church could wait a whole year if they decided just after Easter ?

That is correct. That’s actually speeded up. In the early Church the period of the Catechumenate often lasted more than three years. When adults are baptized (we baptize only unbaptized persons, unlike some Protestant congregations that insist people be “re”-baptized in THEIR church), we want to make sure that they know what they are getting into. They are guided over the course of usually not less than nine months – often a year, sometimes several years if they are cautious – through the elements of the faith, developing familiarity with Scripture, learning to pray . . .

 

[mercygate]

Hmm…I’m looking through the 2,125 times that baptism is referenced in my Church fathers CD.

A common early practice for the baptism of adult converts seems to be a 2 day fast.

Anybody know if this fast still observed today?

Chuck

We encourage fasting in our parish but you have to be listening carefully. Since adults are baptised at the Easter Vigil, they should be fasting anyway. Good Friday and Holy Saturday are the two biggest fast days in the Church (if you’re a more-or-less traditional observer).

 

[mercygate]

I seem to recall recent archeological digs unearthing 1st and 2nd century Greek Baptismal Fonts that were only 18" tall. This would pretty much necessitate Baptism by pouring.

O m’gosh! I just remembered! The oldest extant above ground Christian Church (ca 230 A.D.) is in Dura-Europos on the Euphrates river in eastern Syria. The most striking feature of that church is the baptistery. The water would come only to just below the lowest stripe in the fresco. What’s that? Maybe a foot to 18"?

Thus, there would be no “dunking.” Catechumens would stand in the water and have the water poured over them.

 

[mercygate]

Almost all of the Baptisms that I’ve attended have been pouring, I’ve only been to one full immersion. It was during an Easter Vigil, and there were over a dozen people being baptized. It almost turned into a party atmosphere, lots of laughing and distractions. Then there was a trail of Holy Water on the floor to the bathroom where everyone had to go and towel off and change.

Given how that went, I think the pouring is much more dignified and “sacramental”, in the sense of reverence for what was taking place.

Based on that, I much prefer pouring, I’m not a jumping up and down in the pew kind of guy.

WOW. more than a dozen people? I think I would be jumping up and down in the pew! But yes: the logistics of this can be quite messy, especially considering that the water used is holy water and spills have to be disposed of in the sacrarium. We have a dedicated mop. It gets very awkward.

 

[mercygate]

never said they were, which is why I am here quizzing YOU !! :extrahappy:

Yeah. I was gonna whomp jmcrae upside the knot for that. But she’s usually so temperate that I controlled myself. I DO see that you are truly questioning. How often do we get somebody on these forums who actually pays attention to things like the Didache and the ECFs?

 

[mercygate]

Then I may have misunderstood your question, of which I am sorry. Its just that so many times Catholics are chastised for doing anything other than immersion, that I may have assumed that this was your intention.

But as to two other points:

Naaman’s cleansing of his leprosy is all about Baptism. Leprosy represented sin in the OT and the cleansing of his leprosy in the Jordan pre-figured what Baptism does for us.

I’ll look into where I got my information on John’s location. If I recall correctly, it says he was preaching in the wilderness at the Jordan. The wilderness, by the OT standards, was the east side of the Jordan (Jerusalem was west of the river). Those coming from Jerusalem would have to cross over to hear his words.

Tradition holds that the spot where John was baptizing (just north of the Dead Sea) was the same place that Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind and where Joshua brought Israel into the promised land.

 

[NotWorthy]

Tradition holds that the spot where John was baptizing (just north of the Dead Sea) was the same place that Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind and where Joshua brought Israel into the promised land.

So, which side of the river would that place him? Wouldn’t it be the east? I seem to recall that Elijah crossed over the Jordan before being taking up. Then Elisha slapped the mantel on the water, the river dried up, and he crossed back over into Israel.

 

[mercygate]

So, which side of the river would that place him? Wouldn’t it be the east? I seem to recall that Elijah crossed over the Jordan before being taking up. Then Elisha slapped the mantel on the water, the river dried up, and he crossed back over into Israel.

Preciso! – as we say on the Continent! Elijah, coming from Jericho on the west, parts the Jordan and crosses eastward with Elisha. When Elisha receives Elijah’s mantel, he crosses back into Canaan.

 

[NotWorthy]

Preciso! – as we say on the Continent! Elijah, coming from Jericho on the west, parts the Jordan and crosses eastward with Elisha. When Elisha receives Elijah’s mantel, he crosses back into Canaan.

Hence, according to tradition, the folks from Jerusalem would need to cross the Jordan, hear John preach, receive Baptism, then cross back over the Jordan. Seems like there is much, much more symbolism going on here than simply pre-figuring Christian Baptisms.

 

[mercygate]

Hence, according to tradition, the folks from Jerusalem would need to cross the Jordan, hear John preach, receive Baptism, then cross back over the Jordan. Seems like there is much, much more symbolism going on here than simply pre-figuring Christian Baptisms.

Absolutely! It pre-figures Christian Baptism because Baptism is ALL about coming into the Promise cleansed to live in the glorious freedom of the Children of God.

Don’tcha just LOVE this stuff??

 

[NotWorthy]

Absolutely! It pre-figures Christian Baptism because Baptism is ALL about coming into the Promise cleansed to live in the glorious freedom of the Children of God.

Don’tcha just LOVE this stuff??

True, so true!!! I think I mis-worded my last phrase. I meant that this scene wasn’t just an instructional video on “How to properly perform Baptism”. There’s a much deeper symbolism going on here!

 

[mercygate]

True, so true!!! I think I mis-worded my last phrase. I meant that this scene wasn’t just an instructional video on “How to properly perform Baptism”. There’s a much deeper symbolism going on here!

I teach stuff like this to my sixth grade under the rubric of typology. You wouldn’t BELIEVE how they eat it up. They GET it. They REALLY grasp the idea of packing the symbols into the full context of Scripture.