Baptism Not Required

[USMC_Convert]

I find myself in a shock induced state because I was having a discussion with a Protestant and found out that his particular church does not believe that baptism is required. This amazed me, as I have never hear of baptism not being required.

So please who here does not believe it is required and why? Further more, how do you interpret John 3:5?

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

The church I grew up in, as with many Baptists that I’ve known, don’t believe a physical baptism is necessary - if it occurs, it’s an outward sign of an inner event that’s already occurred. “Baptism” referenced in scripture is spiritual in nature only, according to them (which always seemed to me another way to say “metaphor”).

 

[ltwin]

I find myself in a shock induced state because I was having a discussion with a Protestant and found out that his particular church does not believe that baptism is required. This amazed me, as I have never hear of baptism not being required.

So please who here does not believe it is required and why? Further more, how do you interpret John 3:5?

It depends on what you mean by “required” and “required for what?” Many Protestant denominations reject baptismal regeneration (even Presbyterian Churches, which do practice infant baptism).

From an evangelical Protestant perspective, baptism is not necessary to be justified or regenerated or saved. Baptism is a means of grace ordained by Christ himself, but it is not the only means of grace. It typically follows the hearing and receiving of the preached gospel. One hears the gospel preached, is convicted by the Holy Spirit of your sins and your need for Christ, and you then confess and repent of your sins-placing your trust in Christ. Baptism is part of this process of identifying with Christ by appealing to God for a clean conscience, putting on Christ, and being buried and raised to new life with Him through faith.

Therefore, baptism is certainly part of becoming a disciple of Christ, but most evangelical Protestants would not make it the linchpin of whether or not someone was truly saved. It is a means of grace, but not the only one.

However, many evangelical Protestants do make baptism a pre-condition for official membership in the church. This has no bearing on whether the unbaptized is regenerated already or not. It’s simply felt necessary to ensure that church members are truly committed to becoming disciples of Christ by obeying Christs commands to be baptized.

As to the interpretation of John 3:5, it is taken to refer to a spiritual washing (this is derived from placing this verse in the context of Ezekial 36:25-27 and Titus 3:5). We can also look at Ephesians 5:26, which speaks of the Church being sanctified and cleansed “by the washing of water with the word.” This washing with the word or washing of regeneration is a spiritual washing that takes place.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey Marine!
Don’t be too surprised because, just as with so many things among n-Cs they cannot even agree whether Baptism is necessary for salvation or not in spite of what the New Testament says.

I have an article on my blog that resulted from pretty much the same thing that you went through. Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

 

[Church_Militant]

BTW Itwin, if what you believe is true then why in the world would Christ Himself commanded us to do it? Most n-Cs call this passage “the great commission” and if it’s not necessary to salvation why did Jesus specifically command us to do it? That makes no sense at all…
Look here at Matthew 28:[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

 

[ltwin]

BTW Itwin, if what you believe is true then why in the world would Christ Himself commanded us to do it? Most n-Cs call this passage “the great commission” and if it’s not necessary to salvation why did Jesus specifically command us to do it? That makes no sense at all…
Look here at Matthew 28:[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

He commanded us to do it because, as I said above, baptism is a means of grace. It’s part of becoming a follower of Jesus. However, if someone is not baptized but they have placed their faith in Christ and repented of their sins then I would be very reluctant to say this person is outside of God’s grace because they didn’t get baptized.

The difference is that for Catholics, baptism is what determines whether someone is a Christian or not. For evangelical Protestants, a Christian should be baptized, but the outward act of baptism by itself is not what makes someone a Christian.

In the words of Charles Sumner, Bishop of Winchester, addressing the 19th-century controversy over baptismal regeneration in the Church of England, “I must look, notwithstanding his baptism, for the Scriptural evidence of his being a child of God.”

 

[Wannano]

It

However, many evangelical Protestants do make baptism a pre-condition for official membership in the church. This has no bearing on whether the unbaptized is regenerated already or not. It’s simply felt necessary to ensure that church members are truly committed to becoming disciples of Christ by obeying Christs commands to be baptized.

e.

Itwin, I believe this paragraph gives the impression that a person who has not received new life in Christ can be baptized in order to become a member of the church. My experience in all evangelical churches would be that they would only baptize after repentance and a personal confession of belief.

 

[Bonnie]

The church I grew up in, as with many Baptists that I’ve known, don’t believe a physical baptism is necessary - if it occurs, it’s an outward sign of an inner event that’s already occurred. “Baptism” referenced in scripture is spiritual in nature only, according to them (which always seemed to me another way to say “metaphor”).

I also spent my childhood in Baptist churches & I don’t remember even hearing about baptism. One of the churches had a large tank for baptisms behind the pulpit, but I never saw it used. It wasn’t until we started attending a Pentecostal church that I began to see that baptism was important - that preacher thought very highly of it. Even then it was symbolic only.

 

[USMC_Convert]

This is so fascinating, I never knew that so many people did not believe it was required! Even when I was a Protestant I always just figured that it was, but of course I never knew how important it was. Now that I think back on it, that’s probably why I did not see very many, why no one really talked about it, WOW!

You know I have to say, with so many things that Protestants claim to be just symbolical, what is left that is actually real? In their eyes, what did Jesus do that they actually have to follow? Obviously not confession, not the Holy Eucharist, not baptism, (with so many getting married outside of a church these days) I’m guessing not holy matrimony (but I think that is a Catholic problem now as well), and last rites of anointing of the sick is another one that just never seems to be actually done. They don’t have to suffer because of course there are the Joel Osteen Christians who God just wants to make millionaires, take away all their pain and basically set up a heaven on earth before the second coming, of course no works of mercy are needed because the only thing that one needs is faith… This is crazy!

Okay sorry, I don’t mean to carry on, but wow…

 

[Wannano]

This is so fascinating, I never knew that so many people did not believe it was required! Even when I was a Protestant I always just figured that it was, but of course I never knew how important it was. Now that I think back on it, that’s probably why I did not see very many, why no one really talked about it, WOW!

You know I have to say, with so many things that Protestants claim to be just symbolical, what is left that is actually real? In their eyes, what did Jesus do that they actually have to follow? Obviously not confession, not the Holy Eucharist, not baptism, (with so many getting married outside of a church these days) I’m guessing not holy matrimony (but I think that is a Catholic problem now as well), and last rites of anointing of the sick is another one that just never seems to be actually done. They don’t have to suffer because of course there are the Joel Osteen Christians who God just wants to make millionaires, take away all their pain and basically set up a heaven on earth before the second coming, of course no works of mercy are needed because the only thing that one needs is faith… This is crazy!

Okay sorry, I don’t mean to carry on, but wow…

When you as a Catholic and I as one of those awful Protestants stand before God our common judge of our souls is it possible that the question he will have for both of us will be like that of Pilate of old…“what did you do with Jesus?”

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, I believe this paragraph gives the impression that a person who has not received new life in Christ can be baptized in order to become a member of the church. My experience in all evangelical churches would be that they would only baptize after repentance and a personal confession of belief.

No, I don’t mean that. I mean that any prospective church member would need to first make a profession of faith, but in some churches they would want you baptized before you officially joined the church. The assumption being that those who are baptized will already have made a profession of faith.

 

[Todd977]

Even the Catholic Church does not teach that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary. It also teaches about so-called baptism by blood and baptism by desire. From the Baltimore Catechism:

320. Why is Baptism necessary for the salvation of all men?

Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ has said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

321. How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?

Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.

322. How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of blood?

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of blood when he suffers martyrdom for the faith of Christ.

Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

323. How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire?

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.

If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him. (John 14:23) (source)

 

[USMC_Convert]

When you as a Catholic and I as one of those awful Protestants stand before God our common judge of our souls is it possible that the question he will have for both of us will be like that of Pilate of old…“what did you do with Jesus?”

Well, I’m sorry that whatever I said made you think that I believe Protestants are awful. In fact I believe the opposite, especially as most of my family is Protestant.

However as to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about, or how you know what God will ask us. Furthermore the only answer I can give God to any of His possible questions is simply, “I am an unprofitable servant, one who has not even been able to do everything my Lord has asked of me, I’m sorry, please have mercy.”

 

[ltwin]

You know I have to say, with so many things that Protestants claim to be just symbolical, what is left that is actually real?

The symbolic points us to the greater, eternal reality. In other words, they are means or channels of grace even when there is no grace inherit in the symbols themselves.

In their eyes, what did Jesus do that they actually have to follow?

We would say we should obey Christ in everything.

Obviously not confession,

We confess our sins directly to God in prayer.

not the Holy Eucharist,

Even though the Eucharist is not the physical body and blood of Christ, it is still a means of sanctifying grace for those who partake in faith grasping the blessings from the real sacrifice that the Lord’s Supper symbolizes, and those who partake in an unworthy manner become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

not baptism,

Baptism is still performed, as Christ commanded.

(with so many getting married outside of a church these days) I’m guessing not holy matrimony (but I think that is a Catholic problem now as well),

Matrimony is still followed. People who break the marriage covenant are still responsible for their actions. I do think the pendulum has swung too far into the direction of the American church accepting indiscriminate divorce.

and last rites of anointing of the sick is another one that just never seems to be actually done.

Protestants do anoint the sick with oil and lay hands on them to pray the prayer of faith for their recovery. We don’t just wait until they’re on their death beds either.

They don’t have to suffer because of course there are the Joel Osteen Christians who God just wants to make millionaires, take away all their pain and basically set up a heaven on earth before the second coming, of course no works of mercy are needed because the only thing that one needs is faith… This is crazy!

This is directed at prosperity gospel advocates, which, while growing, is not a fair representation of Protestantism–which would characterize what you call “faith” here as “dead faith.” You’re characterization is really even too simplistic even for the prosperity crowd, who do believe in the importance of works of mercy and love.

 

[Wannano]

Well, I’m sorry that whatever I said made you think that I believe Protestants are awful. In fact I believe the opposite, especially as most of my family is Protestant.

However as to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about, or how you know what God will ask us. Furthermore the only answer I can give God to any of His possible questions is simply, “I am an unprofitable servant, one who has not even been able to do everything my Lord has asked of me, I’m sorry, please have mercy.”

I believe you. And nothing we can do will ever be enough. To believe that He sent His Son Jesus to die in your place for the forgiveness of your sins is the only key to eternal life. It is a free gift for the asking.

 

[Vico]

I find myself in a shock induced state because I was having a discussion with a Protestant and found out that his particular church does not believe that baptism is required. This amazed me, as I have never hear of baptism not being required.

So please who here does not believe it is required and why? Further more, how do you interpret John 3:5?

Do you mean baptism by water? Catholics believe in baptism by desire (catechumens), water (formal baptism), and blood (martyrs). The baptism of infants requires a post baptismal catechesis (and non-infant confirmation, Latin Church, or infant chrysmation - eastern Churches). Many reformation churches do not have infant baptism.

 

[Church_Militant]

He commanded us to do it because, as I said above, baptism is a means of grace. It’s part of becoming a follower of Jesus. However, if someone is not baptized but they have placed their faith in Christ and repented of their sins then I would be very reluctant to say this person is outside of God’s grace because they didn’t get baptized.

2) The difference is that for Catholics, baptism is what determines whether someone is a Christian or not. For evangelical Protestants, a Christian should be baptized, but the outward act of baptism by itself is not what makes someone a Christian.

1) In the words of Charles Sumner, Bishop of Winchester, addressing the 19th-century controversy over baptismal regeneration in the Church of England, "I must look, notwithstanding his baptism, for the Scriptural evidence of his being a child of God."

Two things wrong with that.

1. The Bishop makes his appeal to Sola Scriptura which is a fundamental error that itself has no basis in the Word of God.

See the following discussions:

• Does the Bible teach that everything that we belie…
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
• since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need…
• “If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”

1. You lack knowledge of Catholic baptismal teaching, since the Catholic Church teaches that one who has faith and yet dies prior to the availability of the sacrament is saved by a Baptism of Desire. (See also Does Scripture support baptism by desire?) Further, under persecution, the Church also recognizes a baptism of blood. The following article explains it better and in historical context of the early church. The Necessity of Baptism

 

[Church_Militant]

This is so fascinating, I never knew that so many people did not believe it was required! Even when I was a Protestant I always just figured that it was, but of course I never knew how important it was. Now that I think back on it, that’s probably why I did not see very many, why no one really talked about it, WOW!

You know I have to say, with so many things that Protestants claim to be just symbolical, what is left that is actually real? In their eyes, what did Jesus do that they actually have to follow? Obviously not confession, not the Holy Eucharist, not baptism, (with so many getting married outside of a church these days) I’m guessing not holy matrimony (but I think that is a Catholic problem now as well), and last rites of anointing of the sick is another one that just never seems to be actually done. They don’t have to suffer because of course there are the Joel Osteen Christians who God just wants to make millionaires, take away all their pain and basically set up a heaven on earth before the second coming, of course no works of mercy are needed because the only thing that one needs is faith… This is crazy!

Okay sorry, I don’t mean to carry on, but wow…

When you as a Catholic and I as one of those awful Protestants stand before God our common judge of our souls is it possible that the question he will have for both of us will be like that of Pilate of old…“what did you do with Jesus?”

None of us have said any such thing, so please don’t accuse us of such. Many of us are converts or (as in my own case) reverts and so we know what we have been taught and none of us feel that n-C Christians are “awful”, they simply have beliefs that we no longer agree with and with good reason.

No, I don’t mean that. I mean that any prospective church member would need to first make a profession of faith, but in some churches they would want you baptized before you officially joined the church. The assumption being that those who are baptized will already have made a profession of faith.

Well, I’m sorry that whatever I said made you think that I believe Protestants are awful. In fact I believe the opposite, especially as most of my family is Protestant.

True, and it also points up the fact that there is no consensus among them on this teaching. To me that is another problem since all claim the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

However as to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about, or how you know what God will ask us. Furthermore the only answer I can give God to any of His possible questions is simply, “I am an unprofitable servant, one who has not even been able to do everything my Lord has asked of me, I’m sorry, please have mercy.”

Luke 17:10. One of my favorite scriptures.

 

[Reuben_J]

I find myself in a shock induced state because I was having a discussion with a Protestant and found out that his particular church does not believe that baptism is required. This amazed me, as I have never hear of baptism not being required.

So please who here does not believe it is required and why? Further more, how do you interpret John 3:5?

Jesus commanded it and had himself baptized. The apostles baptized. Christians baptized in fidelity to this command and practice. I don’t see how else we shouldn’t baptize. Anyway, I do not believe in a too much simplified Christianity.

 

[petra22]

The church I grew up in, as with many Baptists that I’ve known, don’t believe a physical baptism is necessary - if it occurs, it’s an outward sign of an inner event that’s already occurred. “Baptism” referenced in scripture is spiritual in nature only, according to them (which always seemed to me another way to say “metaphor”).

Listening and believing in baptism…