Baptism of 7 year old

[maggiec]

My daughter will be gone for over a year in the air force and my husband and I are caring for our 3 granddaughters. They have not been baptised and I want to have them receive this sacrament as soon as possible. Father told me that the 7 year old will have to go to rcia because she is at the age of reason. When I spoke with sister today (who heads the rcia) she said that it wouldn’t do any good to have them baptised because they will go back to their mother after the year is up and so won’t be instructed in the faith.
I thought everyone needed baptisim to get rid of original sin and I was also hoping that afte a year of attending church with us that my granddaughters will want to continue to go, thus bringing my daughter back to church. And, God forbid, what if my daughter doesn’t come back? Some thoughts please on the correctness of this. Do I have any other options?
Help, please,
maggiec

 

[Melonie]

Any person can be baptized, at any time. Baptism has nothing to do with RCIA or instruction in the faith. Anyone, man or woman, so long as he or she is baptized can perform a valid baptism if: his intentions were correct, and he poured water three times over the person’s head, and said “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” (submerging/immersion works, too.) It’s disturbing to me that you’ve been dissuaded from having these children baptized.

 

[Melonie]

…just to clarify: I’m not suggesting the only option is to perform the baptisms yourself or get someone to do them for you. It’s preferable that a priest perform the sacrament. What I am really talking about is an “emergency” baptism. Still, it is entirely valid.

Church Dogma: Baptism

(this is in the Catechism too, but I don’t have the link to it at the moment.)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

“My daughter will be gone for over a year in the air force and my husband and I are caring for our 3 granddaughters. They have not been baptised and I want to have them receive this sacrament as soon as possible.”

The real question is does your daughter want her children Baptized and will she raise them in the Faith? Without the parents permission the Pastor should not Baptize them. Except in danger of death or serious illness.

“Father told me that the 7 year old will have to go to rcia because she is at the age of reason.”

That is technically correct. The age of reason varies with each child but it is around 7. Afterwords the Church believes that the child should make the decision, or at least be part of it. Some Pastors would say under 9, Baptize the child.

“I thought everyone needed baptisim to get rid of original sin and I was also hoping that afte a year of attending church with us that my granddaughters will want to continue to go, thus bringing my daughter back to church. And, God forbid, what if my daughter doesn’t come back? Some thoughts please on the correctness of this. Do I have any other options?”

Your correct everyone should be Baptized there is no other ordinary way to wash away Original Sin and gain entry into Heaven. Convince your daughter to send a letter agreeing to and requesting the Baptism.

 

[Catholic2003]

For the younger children, at least one of the parents needs to approve, and there needs to be a well-founded hope that they will be brought up in the faith. From what you’ve written, these conditions may not be met.

However, for the seven-year old, the only requirement is that she herself desires to be baptized, and that she go through RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation in Children; kind of like RCIA for kids). There is no requirement at all that either of her parents approve or that they will raise her in the faith. Thus, there should be nothing stopping the seven-year old from being baptized. In fact, upon completion of RCIC, she will undergo baptism, confirmation, and first communion in the same mass.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Melonie:

Any person can be baptized, at any time. Baptism has nothing to do with RCIA or instruction in the faith. Anyone, man or woman, so long as he or she is baptized can perform a valid baptism if: his intentions were correct, and he poured water three times over the person’s head, and said “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” (submerging/immersion works, too.) It’s disturbing to me that you’ve been dissuaded from having these children baptized.

Note Canon law

Can. 860 §1. Apart from a case of necessity, baptism is not to be conferred in private houses, unless the local ordinary has permitted it for a grave cause.

Can. 862 Except in a case of necessity, no one is permitted to confer baptism in the territory of another without the required permission, not even upon his own subjects.

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

A case of necessity refers to danger of death.

Territory of another means you need the Bishop’s permission.

Re your statement Baptism has nothing to do with RCIA or instruction in the faith. Anyone who has reached the age of Reason must be properly instructed before receiving the Sacraments of Initiation. In the Sacraments of Initiation they must receive Baptism, Confirmation and First Eucharist in the Initiation Rite.

 

[Melonie]

Also, the Catholic church accepts as valid the baptisms conferred by non-Catholic Christian denominations. Just as these baptisms are accepted, so would be the baptism conferred by anyone else were it done with the proper intention (and such a person would not be accountable to any Bishop or diocese or territory if he is not Catholic.)

The preference of Baptism, Confirmation, and First Eucharist rites occurring simultaneously only applies to Catholics or children being raised as Catholic from the outset. There are thousands of converts every year who convert from Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches, who do not receive those three sacraments in that order.

My point is, we are talking about these children’s’ immortal souls here. That’s serious business. I would find whatever way I could of getting them baptized, even if it meant taking them to a freewill Baptist tent revival. It’s far easier to get forgiven than it is to get permission.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Catholic2003:

For the younger children, at least one of the parents needs to approve, and there needs to be a well-founded hope that they will be brought up in the faith. From what you’ve written, these conditions may not be met.

However, for the seven-year old, the only requirement is that she herself desires to be baptized, and that she go through RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation in Children; kind of like RCIA for kids). There is no requirement at all that either of her parents approve or that they will raise her in the faith. Thus, there should be nothing stopping the seven-year old from being baptized. In fact, upon completion of RCIC, she will undergo baptism, confirmation, and first communion in the same mass.

I would like to comment on the last portion. Technically Catholic 2003 is correct. However I do not know of any Pastor that I have ever met that would Baptize a child without a parents permission. (except in case of possible risk of immediate death) I have even seen where a 16 year old presented herself for RCIA and was asked if she lived on her own and supported herself? When she said no she stilll lived at home, the Pastor required her to returm with a parent before he would allow her into RCIA. I have seen others who have simply said since you are a minor you will have to wait until your 18, unless a parent provides written permission. I believe that most Pastors will at least require one parents permission.

 

[Fergal]

My advice? Baptise these children yourself and now. If your conscience is at you then God is making use of you.

Give it no more thought just go and do it, no apologies.

Fergal
Naas
Ireland

 

[CMcLaurin]

Fergal:

My advice? Baptise these children yourself and now. If your conscience is at you then God is making use of you.

Give it no more thought just go and do it, no apologies.

Fergal
Naas
Ireland

 

[Deacon_Ed]

maggiec:

My daughter will be gone for over a year in the air force and my husband and I are caring for our 3 granddaughters. They have not been baptised and I want to have them receive this sacrament as soon as possible. Father told me that the 7 year old will have to go to rcia because she is at the age of reason. When I spoke with sister today (who heads the rcia) she said that it wouldn’t do any good to have them baptised because they will go back to their mother after the year is up and so won’t be instructed in the faith.
I thought everyone needed baptisim to get rid of original sin and I was also hoping that afte a year of attending church with us that my granddaughters will want to continue to go, thus bringing my daughter back to church. And, God forbid, what if my daughter doesn’t come back? Some thoughts please on the correctness of this. Do I have any other options?
Help, please,
maggiec

Okay, regardless of the advice you have received here – don’t baptize the children yourself. The Church will not do so because you do not have legal custody of the children, you are a temporary caretaker.

The Church teaches that we do not know how they can be saved, but since God “wills all men to come to salvation” He will prov ide a way for those who, through no fault of their own, do not receive baptism.

To baptize the children yourself would be illict, could subject you to excommunication for the invalid celebration of a sacrament, and make the situation so much worse than you can possibly imagine.

BTW, I understand how you feel since my four grandchildren (13, 9, 4, 2) have not been baptized.

Deacon Ed

 

[Melonie]

Deacon Ed:

To baptize the children yourself would be illict, could subject you to excommunication for the invalid celebration of a sacrament, and make the situation so much worse than you can possibly imagine.

Deacon Ed

This is untrue.

 

[whit]

Melonie:

This is untrue.

Melonie, Call Fr. Vincent Serpa on the apologetics line here at Catholic Answers tomorrow. 619-387-7200 or put the question in the Ask an Apologist forum.
God bless and I hurt with you. I have familly who have left the church and all I can do is do a St. Monica and pray for them to come back.
I’m sure you and your family are included in everyone’s prayers here.
Whit

 

[Melonie]

whit:

Melonie, Call Fr. Vincent Serpa on the apologetics line here at Catholic Answers tomorrow. 619-387-7200 or put the question in the Ask an Apologist forum.
God bless and I hurt with you. I have familly who have left the church and all I can do is do a St. Monica and pray for them to come back.
I’m sure you and your family are included in everyone’s prayers here.
Whit

Thanks, Whit, but it’s not my question: it’s maggiec’s. I was answering it. But here, you may read more about this:

Catholic Encyclopedia: Baptism

 

[Fergal]

Deacon Ed!

I am very very suprised and a little shocked to see such strongly worded answer:To baptize the children yourself would be illict, could subject you to excommunication for the invalid celebration of a sacrament, and make the situation so much worse than you can possibly imagine. Could you please state where and when the faculty to baptise was removed from the faithful?

I have included a link here on the sacrament of Baptism for all interested. catholicdoors.com/courses/baptism.htm

I believe the following:

1. Because of the greatness of the eternal gift that is received during the Sacrament of Baptism, the Church does not desire to see anyone die without receiving this Sacrament. (C.C.C. # 1250)
2. The Church also realized that infants must be educated later on after their Baptism, this being a parental role. This is where the catechism serves a great purpose in the Church. (C.C.C. # 1231)
3. In the case of an emergency, anyone can baptise another person as long as he has the intention of doing so. He is only required to pour water over the person’s head and say the words, “I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” (C.C.C. # 1284)

Therefore I feel 1. above constitutes and emergency. The grandparents do not even know if the parent will return
2. above must be the grandparents responsibility now if she decides to go ahead.
3. above gives her permission to do so providing she maintains responsibility for their spiritual growth afterwards.
It should not just be a once off thing done in secret.

By the way Deacon Ed I quote from you BTW, I understand how you feel since my four grandchildren (13, 9, 4, 2) have not been baptized.
I would encourage you, for God’s sake and for theirs to do the same. Baptise them now. i consider 13 years unbaptised as an emergency.

Just a little curious are you an ordained deacon or is that just your useraname?

God Bless,
Fergal
Naas
Ireland

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Fergal,

I am an ordained deacon for the Diocese of Orange in California and have bi-ritual faculties to serve the Eparchy of Newton (Melkite).

Lay people only have faculties to baptize in life-or-death situations. That is, if there is a person who is dying who has never been baptized then a lay person may baptize. Any other attempt at baptism is illicit (contrary to canon law).

Your interpretation of the Catechism is not consistent with the Church’s interpretation of canon law. The term “emergency” refers only to the imminent death of the one who would be receiving baptism. Since this is not the case with the children in question (or my grandchildren) there is no permission granted by the Church for a lay person to baptize. As I said, such an illicit baptism could lead to excommunication of the one performing the baptism. While this is extreme and not likely to happen, it is possible.

The Church offers this understanding with regard to canon 861 which grants permission to the non-ordained to confer baptism: “In imminent danger of death and especially at the moment of death, when no priest or deacon is available, any member of the faithful, indeed anyone with the right intention, may and sometimes must administer baptism…”

To support my statement we read canon 868: Ҥ1. For the licit baptism of an infant it is necessary that:
1° the parents or at least one of them or the persons who lawfully take their place gives consent;
2° there be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such a hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be put off according to the prescriptions of particular law and the parents are to be informed of the reason.
§2. The infant of Catholic parents, in fact of non-Catholic parents also, who is in danger of death is licitly baptized even against the will of the parents.”

As you can see, there is no canonical basis for allowing the baptism of these children at this time – your opinion notwithstanding.

Deacon Ed

 

[whit]

Melonie:

Thanks, Whit, but it’s not my question: it’s maggiec’s. I was answering it.

Shucks, I don’t get confused much do I? Oh well hopefully she will see both of our posts. God bless.
Whit

 

[maggiec]

Deacon Ed:

Okay, regardless of the advice you have received here – don’t baptize the children yourself. The Church will not do so because you do not have legal custody of the children, you are a temporary caretaker.

The Church teaches that we do not know how they can be saved, but since God “wills all men to come to salvation” He will prov ide a way for those who, through no fault of their own, do not receive baptism.

To baptize the children yourself would be illict, could subject you to excommunication for the invalid celebration of a sacrament, and make the situation so much worse than you can possibly imagine.

BTW, I understand how you feel since my four grandchildren (13, 9, 4, 2) have not been baptized.

Deacon Ed

I guess I need to clarify. I have been given power of attorney for my grandchildren because it was needed for school, medical etc. I have power of attorney and my daughters ok to have the children baptised. I was a little taken aback when sister said that it was no use if after the year they would be going back to their mother and father. My son in law is on his way to Iraq and I don’t know where my daughter will end up. I am still hoping that the children will continue church after they return home. I can’t understand a sister stating that it is no use to baptise them. I feel it very necessary. I don’t know what to do.
maggiec

 

[Deacon_Ed]

maggiec:

I guess I need to clarify. I have been given power of attorney for my grandchildren because it was needed for school, medical etc. I have power of attorney and my daughters ok to have the children baptised. I was a little taken aback when sister said that it was no use if after the year they would be going back to their mother and father. My son in law is on his way to Iraq and I don’t know where my daughter will end up. I am still hoping that the children will continue church after they return home. I can’t understand a sister stating that it is no use to baptise them. I feel it very necessary. I don’t know what to do.
maggiec

Maggiec,

Okay, the fact that you have legal authority over the children changes everything. I guess that wasn’t clear from your initial post. In the case you cite (both having legal authority and the permission of your daughter) you can ask the Church for baptism. Yes, the 7 year-old should go through the RCIA process according to the national statutes.

I’m not sure what the good Sister was getting at, but I would suggest you simply ignore her comments. This might be a good chance for the children to catechize their parents, and your daughter may well raise the children as Catholics. Sister cannot possibly know this.

Deacon Ed

 

[maggiec]

Deacon Ed:

Maggiec,

Okay, the fact that you have legal authority over the children changes everything. I guess that wasn’t clear from your initial post. In the case you cite (both having legal authority and the permission of your daughter) you can ask the Church for baptism. Yes, the 7 year-old should go through the RCIA process according to the national statutes.

I’m not sure what the good Sister was getting at, but I would suggest you simply ignore her comments. This might be a good chance for the children to catechize their parents, and your daughter may well raise the children as Catholics. Sister cannot possibly know this.

Deacon Ed

My problem, Deacon Ed, is that sister is in charge of rcia and she doesn’t want my granddaughter that is 7 to attend because of all of the above reasons and now I don’t know what to do because everything goes through sister. I am lost and don’t know where to go to next.
maggiec