Baptism of babies & infants

[hosemonkey]

Thanks for your reply Hosemonkey.So what your saying is that at baptism one does NOT receive the Holy Spirit. Am I correct? The Holy Spirit is only confered at confirmation. Am I correct? If the original sin is forgiven at baptism, what does Heb 9:22 mean, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” ? Unconfuse me? ED O.

If you return to the Catholic Church, you will no longer be so confused.

 

[awantz]

By baptism, the child is saved. Confirmation is conferred to make that now-grown child a soldier of Christ and invokes the assistance of the Holy Ghost.

That’s not what I was told in RCIA or in Infant Baptism preparation class.

 

[jlhargus]

That’s not what I was told in RCIA or in Infant Baptism preparation class.

What were you told? What is the name of the catachism book you were given in your RCIA preparaton class?

 

[rinnie]

Hi Filiope, I apologize for not responding to you sooner, I was called out of town. Let’s say Mary was guilty of touching something as you say, she would then have to be purified by offering two pigeons for her SIN for doing so. Am I not correct? How could that be if she was born sinless? Mary, at the temple in Lk 2:24 did what the Law required her to do after birth, Lev 12:6-8,offer two pigeons for SIN otherwise she would consider herself not being purified. Am I not correct ? If not so, why was she at the temple then? But in addition consider these: Mary sings in Lk 1:47 “and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” Why a Savior? Only sinners need a savior. Mat 1:25 Joseph had no relations with Mary, “until” Jesus was born. Doesn’t “until” imply that she later did? Mat 13:55 the people in the synagogue name James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas as Jesus’ brothers. If these are not Mary’s children and by allowing Joseph to marry her, wouldn’t she have committed treachery upon the holy covenant of marriage? There’s much being said about Mary. But doesn’t all of this have to be taken under consideration too?

Actually Ed you are not correct. Mary observed the law because under the law she was cermonially unclean. That is not equivalent to being sinful.

As you can see Mary was born under the law and she observed the law of Moses with regard to pregancy and Childbirth.

But she did obey the law to fullfill all righteousness. Just like Jesus did not HAVE to be baptised, because he did not HAVE to repent for any sin because he like Mary had none. But like Mary submitted to the law, Jesus submitted to Baptism. Both fulfilled all righteousness in humility.

 

[rinnie]

Also could you show me how Mary never needed a Savior. That is not Catholic teaching thats for sure.

As a matter of fact the CC teaches the Mary was Saved from SIN at birth. Just because she never sinned does not mean she was never saved from sin.

She was saved from sin BEFORE she ever sinned. But how would that imply she never needed a savior?

Again you are either misunderstanding Catholic Teaching or are quoting another faith’s teaching. It is surely not the teaching of the RCC.

 

[rinnie]

Thanks for your reply Hosemonkey.So what your saying is that at baptism one does NOT receive the Holy Spirit. Am I correct? The Holy Spirit is only confered at confirmation. Am I correct? If the original sin is forgiven at baptism, what does Heb 9:22 mean, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” ? Unconfuse me? ED O.

No that is not correct at all. In the RCC you are saved from original sin by the Power of the Holy SPirit. What do you think baptism is? Baptism is the entering of the HS. You are saved from original sin. You are not saved from actual sin if you are an infant because you had not way of commiting it yet. Hope that unconfuses you. Its pretty simple.

Baptism is the entering of the HS for the forgiveness of sin. How could a person be forgiven from original sin or any sin without the HS. That makes like no sense at all.

Confirmation just means that you understand the teachings of the Church and you understand your Baptism promised and you renew them is all. When you are a child you have God Parents and parents who promise to make sure you are taught the faith.

At confirmation you now do not need them you are on your own. you now understand what you have been asked to do, you understand it,and accept it on your own now. Again its really quite simple if you let it be.

 

[rinnie]

The first paragraph sounds like what happens in baby dedication at my church.
The second paragraph sounds like what happens when someone decides whether or not they want to be saved.

Not at all. Baby dedication is not Baptism at all. Unless that child is Baptised in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is when a person is saved. Rather they are 2 days old or 80 years old.

Lets make this clear Baptism is the pouring of the Holy Spirit entering the mind, body and soul. You can only be baptised once. Thats it.

Confirmation is only confirming those vows. Again pretty simple.

 

[rinnie]

That’s not what I was told in RCIA or in Infant Baptism preparation class.

Sure it was, or you were not talking classed in the Roman Catholic Church. Thats for sure. One thing everyone will agree on if they are Roman Catholic the teaching never changes and is the same today as when Jesus taught it.

Maybe you misunderstood, That is all I can see. But never has the RCC taught anything different. Baptism is quite clear. If you read the CCC it will show you I am telling you the truth.

 

[awantz]

Not at all. Baby dedication is not Baptism at all. Unless that child is Baptised in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is when a person is saved. Rather they are 2 days old or 80 years old.

Lets make this clear Baptism is the pouring of the Holy Spirit entering the mind, body and soul. You can only be baptised once. Thats it.

Confirmation is only confirming those vows. Again pretty simple.

The Roman Catholics in my area seem to believe that Salvation happens at Confirmation and not baptism.

 

[rinnie]

The Roman Catholics in my area seem to believe that Salvation happens at Confirmation and not baptism.

I am sorry but that is incorrect. The RCC teaches one truth one faith. You either need to double check on that teaching, or you are not in a RCC. I think you need to research a little better.

The teaching in the RCC is the same as it was the day Christ preached it. It never changed. never will. Again please check on this and ask them what exactly they believe not what you think that they seem to believe.

That is how wrong teachings are started about my Church by what you feel people seem to believe. You need to find out what exactly they believe and when.

The CCC of the Catholic CHurch has all of the teachings of the RCC. You may want to check it out. THen you can know for sure.

 

[awantz]

I am sorry but that is incorrect. The RCC teaches one truth one faith. You either need to double check on that teaching, or you are not in a RCC. I think you need to research a little better.

The teaching in the RCC is the same as it was the day Christ preached it. It never changed. never will. Again please check on this and ask them what exactly they believe not what you think that they seem to believe.

That is how wrong teachings are started about my Church by what you feel people seem to believe. You need to find out what exactly they believe and when.

The CCC of the Catholic CHurch has all of the teachings of the RCC. You may want to check it out. THen you can know for sure.

I already have.

 

[rinnie]

Then how can you say what you said. How do you explain this?

Quote CCC1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the sole christian life the gateway of life in the Sprit and the door which gives sccess to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God. we become members of Christ ar incorporated in the Church and made shares in her mission. Baptismi s the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word. Unquote.

How can it be the gateway to life and free us from sins if you claim that is confirmation?

The quote is from the CCC please make a note of it. Now you know the teachings of our faith, please do not accuse our church of teaching differently. We go by the teachings of the Pope and there is only one teaching and one pope in the RCC. Thank-you.

 

[peary]

What are the most common non-Catholic objections to the baptism of infants?

There are two of them.

The first one is that, a baby or infant cannot make a conscious decision to accept Christ as his or her personal Savior.

The second is that baptism is only a symbol anyway, and it does not save us from sin, even original sin.

 

[awantz]

There are two of them.

The first one is that, a baby or infant cannot make a conscious decision to accept Christ as his or her personal Savior.

The second is that baptism is only a symbol anyway, and it does not save us from sin, even original sin.

It’s true the infant can’t make that decision, but the parents can make that decision/ commitment before the Lord to submit a child to God’s will and to raise that child according to God’s Word and God’s ways.

Baptism is more than a symbol. It is the outward sign of salvation.

 

[EdOsiecki]

If you return to the Catholic Church, you will no longer be so confused.

Hi Hosemonkey, I have questions, but honestly your above comment explains nothing to me. On post 469 you state, “Baptism confers regeneration” Regeneration means being saved. I can’t find the biblical reference for that. In Mat 3:11, John states exactly what his baptism does,” I baptize you with water for repentance" In Acts 19:4 Paul says the same, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance”. Repentance means being sorry (turning from sin) and confessing sins to God. John1:29, John saw Jesus and said, “Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” John never said his baptism takes away sins. It’s what Jesus did on the cross (shed His Blood) that takes away the sins (symbolically washes them away) . Mat 26:28 Jesus states, This is my BLOOD of the NEW covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. ( blood not baptism) BLOOD, which is consistent with the OLD covenant starting with Adam & Eve. they were reclothed with skins, animals died (blood), Moses’ time, animals died (blood) Lev17:11 God said," For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." Jesus, Lamb Blood our atonement for sins. The blood theme starts with Adam & Eve, and continues all the way to Rev 1:5 Jesus freed us from our sins by His BLOOD. The Passover Ex.12:7 the Jews were to take some blood of a lamb (not water) and place it on the top and sides of the door frames, which protected the firstborn. Jesus our Passover Lamb, His blood protects us. When you say, baptism regenerates a person, that means sins are forgiven. But how can that be when Heb 9:22 states, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Your, “Baptism confers regeneration” is what confuses me. The above is the way I understand God’s salvation plan which makes much sense to me. All the Scriptures I quote are in the Catholic Bible. Isn’t this correct? ED O

 

[hosemonkey]

Hi Hosemonkey, I have questions, but honestly your above comment explains nothing to me. On post 469 you state, “Baptism confers regeneration” Regeneration means being saved. I can’t find the biblical reference for that. In Mat 3:11, John states exactly what his baptism does,” I baptize you with water for repentance" In Acts 19:4 Paul says the same, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance”. Repentance means being sorry (turning from sin) and confessing sins to God. John1:29, John saw Jesus and said, “Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” John never said his baptism takes away sins. It’s what Jesus did on the cross (shed His Blood) that takes away the sins (symbolically washes them away) . Mat 26:28 Jesus states, This is my BLOOD of the NEW covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. ( blood not baptism) BLOOD, which is consistent with the OLD covenant starting with Adam & Eve. they were reclothed with skins, animals died (blood), Moses’ time, animals died (blood) Lev17:11 God said," For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." Jesus, Lamb Blood our atonement for sins. The blood theme starts with Adam & Eve, and continues all the way to Rev 1:5 Jesus freed us from our sins by His BLOOD. The Passover Ex.12:7 the Jews were to take some blood of a lamb (not water) and place it on the top and sides of the door frames, which protected the firstborn. Jesus our Passover Lamb, His blood protects us. When you say, baptism regenerates a person, that means sins are forgiven. But how can that be when Heb 9:22 states, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Your, “Baptism confers regeneration” is what confuses me. The above is the way I understand God’s salvation plan which makes much sense to me. All the Scriptures I quote are in the Catholic Bible. Isn’t this correct? ED O

Of course you are confused, you are a protestant. Read post#478.

 

[placido]

There are two of them.

The first one is that, a baby or infant cannot make a conscious decision to accept Christ as his or her personal Savior.

That is under estimation of God’s power. We have a lot of examples where God’s merciful hand reached people without their “concious decision”.

The second is that baptism is only a symbol anyway, and it does not save us from sin, even original sin.

If so, then there is no harm and any objection is unnecessary.

placido

 

[rinnie]

It’s true the infant can’t make that decision, but the parents can make that decision/ commitment before the Lord to submit a child to God’s will and to raise that child according to God’s Word and God’s ways.

Baptism is more than a symbol. It is the outward sign of salvation.

Then how can you make a statement as you have in post 481 about the CC. When you know that Baptism is the pouring of the HS. You claim you read the CCC and accused the RCC of denying the pouring of saving grace at Baptism.

 

[placido]

Hi Hosemonkey, I have questions, but honestly your above comment explains nothing to me. On post 469 you state, “Baptism confers regeneration” Regeneration means being saved. I can’t find the biblical reference for that.

John 3:5 - You must be born of water and of Spirit to enter the kingdom.
Titus 3:5 - We are saved by the washing of regeneration.
Acts 22:16 - “Be baptized and wash away your sins”.
1 Peter 3:21 - “Baptism now saves you”.

In Mat 3:11, John states exactly what his baptism does,” I baptize you with water for repentance" In Acts 19:4 Paul says the same, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance”.

Yes, and as you may know, John’s baptism differs from Christian baptism.

Repentance means being sorry (turning from sin) and confessing sins to God.

Right.

John1:29, John saw Jesus and said, “Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” John never said his baptism takes away sins.

John did not say that probably because he was not concerned with “how”.

It’s what Jesus did on the cross (shed His Blood) that takes away the sins (symbolically washes them away).

But I remember where Jesus forgave sins even before He was crucified … and where do you get the idea of “symbolically” washing away sins? From the Bible? No ways.

placido

 

[placido]

Mat 26:28 Jesus states, This is my BLOOD of the NEW covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. ( blood not baptism) BLOOD, which is consistent with the OLD covenant starting with Adam & Eve.

The “either/or” has always been the weakest link in protestant arguments. Now we are being told “Jesus’ blood” makes baptism unnecessary or useless.
That is why I like the analogy of a driver’s license: to possess a driver’s license does not mean you are free to disregard other traffic requirements like not driving under the influence of liquor; not being in possession of a stolen vehicle; not over-speeding, stopping at traffic lights, etc.
In a like matter, Jesus’ blood does not invalidate baptism or good works (Matthew 25:31-46).

placido