Some people seem to be misinterpreting me here.
The process may start at infant baptism, but it says in the CCC that it’s not complete until confirmation.
Hi placido, thanks for your reply. It’s not either/or and it NEVER has been. It’s the blood of Jesus that washes away sins (forgives/atones). The water in baptism can not do that. Yes baptism is necessary, it signifies repentance, turning to God. If one does not repent, the blood of Jesus is ineffective. Catholics believe water baptism saves, washes away sins, and the Holy Spirit is received, and the person is born again. That’s NOT what the Bible teaches. According to the Bible, baptism is a sign of REPENTANCE the turning to God. Paul said so, John also said so, he ought to know why God sent him. Paul who started most of the churches said he wasn’t sent to baptize 1Cor 1:17. He was concerned about people getting saved by the gospel which is not baptism. He states in Gal 1:8,"Let’s God’s curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about; yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. In plain English, Paul never preached that one gets saved by water baptism. In Mat 3:7-8, John would not baptize the Pharisees and Sadducees until they would first show some signs of repentance. That’s also why Simon in Acts 8:13 didn’t get saved even though he was baptized. Baptism is ALWAYS associated with REPENTANCE. If baptism was the way to get saved, “born again”, Paul would have said so and he would have been doing it---------. When you refer to Mat 25:31-46 to indicate good works, you better read it again because it doesn’t apply to you unless you’ll be among the nations assembled before Jesus at the judgement of nations. ED O.
Hi Placido, Thanks for your reply. I say this very respectfully, it seems to me that every time a Catholic sees the words “water or washing” to them, it always means water baptism which is far from the truth. That’s exactly what you are doing in Titus 3:5. Contrary to what you have been taught, no one is regenerated by water baptism. The Bible DOES NOT teach that and either does the first pope Peter. This is what he states in 1Pet 1:23 “For you have been “Born Again” ----through the living and enduring WORD of God.” (That’s not water baptism.) Here’s your problem. You quote 1Pet 3:21 ”Baptism now saves you“ But there’s more to that verse. It continues, “not the removal of dirt from your body but the PLEDGE OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARDS GOD” That’s what repentance means, the turning to God. When you quote only one half of a verse, it’s like my telling you that tomorrow you will get a million dollars. (the next day you would be expecting million dollars ) But when I say tomorrow you will get a million dollars, if you have the winning ticket, that makes a big difference, doesn’t it?. So 1Pet 3:21 very clearly means baptism by water is of repentance, otherwise Peter would be contradicting himself in 1:23. You quote Acts 22:16, “Be baptized and wash away your sins” You are making the same error again. There’s more to that verse. It continues with “calling on His (Jesus) name. It’s the calling of His name that saves and washes away the sins. Joel 2:32 “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” as well as Rom 10:13, John 3:16 and many more verses, The jailor in Acts 16:31 got saved by belief in the Lord Jesus. He then got baptized to show repentance. If there’s a Christian Baptism, as you say, that saves and the Holy Spirit is also received, then Jesus didn’t know about it. Acts 1:5, Jesus states, ”For John baptized with water but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." How then can the Holy Spirit be in John’s baptism too? ----- Please note that I haven’t replied to the above John 3:5. That’s the verse that caused all the baptism problems. I’ll deal with it later. ED O.
Funny, you deny something in theory but immediately admit it in practice. You say it is not “either/or”, but immediately thereafter say it is either/or: the blood of Jesus to the exclusion of baptism.
I detected a small but significant contradiction in what you said. You are saying for the blood of Jesus to be effective it needs something else and you limit that “something” to ‘repentance”. The question is, is repentance without baptism enough? Not according to the Bible. “Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38).
That is exactly the Catholic position and that is exactly what the Bible says:
No problem if Paul was not sent to baptize. He was not the only apostle. Other apostles were sent to baptize (Matthew 28:19-20).
Now you have a choice to make: either Paul agrees with Jesus on baptism (but you misunderstand him), or Paul is opposed to Jesus’ teaching on baptism.
It amazes me how some folks emphasize Paul’s teachings to the exclusion of Jesus. Apparently, Paul did not teach the importance of baptism, and the fact that Jesus did (John 3:5; Matthew 28:19) doesn’t matter to them. We have so far moved from “sola fide” to “sola scriptura” and now to “sola Paulus”.
What do you mean here – I honestly I can’t decode it.
In proper context this verse teaches that the promise of salvation of from generation to generation.
That is funny!
Now add the parts about whole households and you have a great Scriptural case for infant baptism unto the ages of ages for all generations.
My pleasure and God bless!That is funny!
Seriously though, I must commend you placido for beautifully explaining the holy sacrament of baptism to Ed.
May he have ears to hear.
No it does not.
JL: That is exactly what is done in baptism. When we are baptized with water we call on the Name of the Lord, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is what makes the sacrament effective. The water and words bring about the action of the Holy Spriit, who applies the fruit of the shed blood of Christ on the baptised, washing away our sins, we are regenerated born again by water AND Spirit Jn3:5. [Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? ARISE, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Water without the words of calling on the name of the Lord, would only get one wet.
JL: Where does it say the jailor was baptized to show repentance? That is OPINION only. Show me where Paul said so, John said so and where scripture says so? Paul did baptize a few people, but as any traveling evangelists even today they do not baptize, they leave that to the local people, who will be around to instruct the new believer what he must do.
JL: Where else will anyone be? This is both sheep and goats, we will be one or the other. All humanity will be present in their resurrected bodies at this judgement which will reveal who is blessed and who is cursed.
JL: Well on one hand you say we are saved when we believe. You also say baptism is just a sign of repentance. Then you say If one does not repent the blood of Jesus is ineffective. Well if the blood is ineffective till one repents – and I agree – then how is one saved by faith without repentance? Show me scripturally how and when you think we are saved? How and when we repent? How and when our sins are remitted or washed away? When and how do we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit? How and when is the blood of Christ applied to us?
JL: What else does it mean, What do you wash in? Show me how it is far from the truth? When I read scripture I see baptism connected to water, when baptism is used to refer to something other than water baptism it is clear in the text.
I never said it wasn’t valid.
I never said it did. Anyways you just said that all the sacraments are not complete.
Sure you did right here. You said the process starts at baptism but is not completed until confirmation. What process are you talking about that starts a Baptism then?
How could you possibly complete all of the sacraments at the age of an infant?
uuuhm, Some of if not all the Eastern Catholic Rites include baptism, communion, confirmation at infant baptism all at once. Iam not sure about adults although, I am sure they have instruction or formation to complete the sacraments of initiation.
By the way what I meant by that was there are more than 3 sacraments in the Catholic Faith.
Hi placido, thanks for your reply. I was amazed when I read your rebuttals. Didn’t you absorb what I wrote on post 496. I very clearly explained how you distort Scripture by quoting only a portion of It. And you did it AGAIN! ??? ( Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and 1Peter 3:21). If 1Pet 3:21 means water baptism by which one get saved,(born again) then pope Peter didn’t know about it because he says in 1Pet 1:23, “For you have been “BORN AGAIN” -----through the living and enduring WORD of God.” That’s not water baptism! You asked, Is repentance without baptism enough? According to John in Mat 3:11, baptism IS repentance an outward sign of turning to God. I already said that you misquote Acts 2:38 “repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins” but verse 44 is what you fail to quote. Sin is committed against God, He does the forgiving not baptism.-----“sola Paulus” Come on now placido! let’s not diminish Paul after all he wrote most of the N.T. he was never called “dull” or “Satan” by Jesus as was Peter. ------ What’s your understanding about Simon? He got baptized Acts 8:13 but didn’t get born again. Why not? Also others got baptized Acts 8:12 but in verse 16 none of them had received the Holy Spirit. Isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to be received at baptism? ------- Read Mat 25:31-32 again,see if you can discern what’s going on. Thanks ED O.
That’s odd Ed. I was just going to accuse you of exactly the same thing, latching onto one part of scripture only to ignore the rest. for that is exactly what you do yourself.
Hi Mickey, welcome to the discussion. I’m afraid that placido didn’t get the job done as you say. I had to correct his comments on post 510. Instead of being on the side line, why don’t you jump in too. Thanks ED O.That is funny!
Seriously though, I must commend you placido for beautifully explaining the holy sacrament of baptism to Ed.
May he have ears to hear.