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Paul_Folbrecht
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For pete’s sake, Jim, I can’t stand to see Dauphin go it alone any longer - READ WHAT HE’S WRITTEN! You’re wrong about this!
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malphono
Guest
FWIW, Jim28 I agree. Read it again please. And put an end to this pointless exchange.
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jim28
Guest
Dauphin is trying to make me believe what he/she has written. I am trying to make him/her believe Catholic Dogma.
You don’t have to watch if you don’t want to.
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jim28
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Please give me the Dogmatic Definition of Baptism of Desire and tell me if it is in the category of sacraments.
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mattkubes
Guest
I don’t believe it would be a Sacrament per se, but God is not bound by the sacraments and can distribute the sacramental graces to those with the desire for them in extraordinary circumstances (this is clear dogma as well).
Pope Pius XII also refers to it in Mystici Corporis when he addresses those “who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church”:
“Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ” and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.”
This has been stated over and over again…none of the quotations you’ve been shown go against the documents of Trent, but you insist that there is some essential difference. Those outside the Church, through no fault of their own, cannot be sure of their salvation…but it is still possible for them to be saved.
What are you seeing that countless faithful, Popes, Doctors of the Church, and Saints have missed?
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jim28
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This is not a clear dogma. I agree that God “can distribute the sacramental graces to those with the desire for them” for Sacraments such as Confession, Eucharist, Confirmation, and Extreme Unction. There is no where that the Church infallibly teaches that the false sacrament, baptism of desire, can attain a person salvation.
It would have to be considered an eighth sacrament. This is because it supposedly does the same thing as Baptism, remission of sins. This is a sacrament that is charged with the soul purpose of being an entrance into the Mystical Body through the remission of sins.
Are you asserting that Catholic can be sure of their salvation?
Again I say, please give me the Dogmatic Definition of Baptism of Desire.
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Dauphin
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The Canons of Trent are dogmatic. Besides that, you’ll find only the teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium. No Catholic is free to reject it.
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Dauphin
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Again, you mock the Church by pitting her teachings against one another.
There are only seven sacraments. The desire of these sacraments can be sufficient, under extraordinary circumstances, to confer their grace.
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jim28
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Please quote the dogmatic definition for baptism of desire.
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jim28
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the ordinary magisterium is infallible too. you could quote those definitions for baptism of desire too.
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Dauphin
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The Ordinary Magiserium can be either fallible or infallible. In this case, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium, at the very least, teaches baptism of desire. As such, the Church demands full submission to the teaching.
It has been argued, however, that Baptism of Desire is de fide (dogmatic) because it is Contained in a Canon of Trent.
Either way, we are not free to disagree with it.
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jim28
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If it is dogmatic then quote me the Dogmatic definition.
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Dauphin
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It’s the Canon we’ve been talking about.
St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor, argued that:
“It is de fide that there are some men saved also by the baptism of the Spirit”(De Baptismo, cap. 1)
This is the constant teaching of the Church. An overwhelming number of the most eminent Popes, Saints, and Doctors have clearly taught baptism of desire. The Papal Magisterium, in clear terms, has taught this doctrine. Every Catholic must assent to it.
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mattkubes
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Why limit it to that?
In the Dogmatic Constitution Unigenitus, Pope Clement XI listed this as the 29th error of Paschasius Quesnel:
“Outside of the Church, no grace is granted.”
You seem to be flirting with this error…knowing that grace can be granted “outside of the Church”, what is the point of this grace?
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jim28
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Predisposing or prevenient graces are given to those outside the Church so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Church. Without these graces no one would ever convert.
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mattkubes
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So then what happens when the person who receives these graces is in a situation where they do not know of Christ’s Church? Remember, we still have uncontacted tribes in Brazil…are they necessarily damned because of their geographic location? What about those who live in countries where their is no possibility of receiving baptism (Somalia and Saudi Arabia come to mind)?
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jim28
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St. Augustine sums it up rightly.
St. Augustine, 391: “When we shall have come into His [God’s]
sight, we shall behold the equity of God’s justice. Then no one will say:… ‘**Why was this man led by God’s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a
catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster, and was not
baptized?’ **Look for rewards, and you will find nothing except punishments.”
It is not up to us to decide why God allows some to die without Baptism. God knows the hearts of all men. If the catechumen or whoever is not of the truth then God will not allow him to enter His Church.
Since God has declared through His Church that Water Baptism is necessary for salvation before death, he would obviously give a person who is of the truth or of good will the means, ordinary or extraordinary, to receive the Sacrament of Baptism
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nuntym
Guest
WOW, 
read this…
I was researching on the Catholic doctrines of sanctifying grace and justification at the Catholic Encyclopedia (originally published 1917), and look at what I’ve found:
Remember, this was published waaaaay back in 1917, more than four decades before V2.
read this…I was researching on the Catholic doctrines of sanctifying grace and justification at the Catholic Encyclopedia (originally published 1917), and look at what I’ve found:
What do you think?
Remember, this was published waaaaay back in 1917, more than four decades before V2.
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jim28
Guest
I think that any book, not protected against error by God, can contain error.WOW,
I was researching on the Catholic doctrines of sanctifying grace and justification at the Catholic Encyclopedia (originally published 1917), and look at what I’ve found:
What do you think?
The age of the book makes no difference.
The errors of vatican ii did not come about overnight.
That is a discussion for a different time, since protestants, orthodox and any type of beliefs are tolerable on these forums, except sedevacantists.
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Dauphin
Guest
It’s interesting that you’d try to use St. Augustine’s words in your defense, since he taught Baptism of Desire:
"For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of Baptism. For He Who said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, “Whosever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven”; and in another place, “Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it.” - City of God, XIII.7
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